Win XP Pro SP2 UDF CD-R/DVD-R BSOD crashes solved

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by All Things Mopar, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. To all those who responded to my plea for help in solving my
    Windows crash problem, my thanks. I did successfully solve the
    problem, I believe 100%.

    For those coming in to the OP now or just interested, some
    background. While I am no technical expert, my belief is that
    UDF (Universal Disc Format) was originally developed to support
    the audio and movie DVD industry, if not originally, then when
    DVD burners were invented. It uses a form of packet writing to
    do its magic, with the intended benefit of much more flexibility
    than Joliet, which most people use today.

    In PC terms, the big benefit to UDF is long file names up to a
    theoretical limit of 125 characters, almost double Joliet's
    limit of 64 (including extension). I have learned empirically,
    though, that anything over 114 is likely to result in many or
    all the files on the disc being burned without error, but zero
    length rendering them useless. A much smaller benefit is volume
    names up to 32 characters vs. Joliet's 15.

    I originally discovered and began to use UDF some years ago on a
    Win XP Pro SP1 machine as I was searching for a way to prevent
    truncation of long file names when burning backup CD-Rs. I don't
    have to, of course, but I much prefer to put as much meta data
    into my picture file names as possible. If I could get reliable
    burns of over 114 characters, I would do so. Incidently, the UDF
    discs I burned were also 100% compatible on my very old Win 98
    SE box. My new DVD-Rs cannot be read on my old SP1 box yet,
    until I put in a newer DVD reader.

    However, I very quickly discovered when starting to use my new
    custom-built Win XP Pro SP2 PC late last October that even
    attempting to mount a UDF disc would almost always result in a
    Blue Screen of Death crash in an unknown Microsoft device
    driver. If I got it to mount, by turning off AutoPlay for
    example, the disc would crash Windows sooner or later attempting
    to read from it. MS provided no clue as to which driver(s) it
    was, the KB contained nothing, and Googling confirmed that
    others were seeing it, but neither understood why nor knew how
    to fix it.

    In a classic example of "can't see the forest for the trees", I
    tried vainly to find the root cause myself, investigated hiring
    a certified Microsoft Engineer, and posted requests for help to
    a number of NGs, all in vain. I originally posted here because I
    regularly see debates about how best to backup digital images
    and thought perhaps someone had found a fix.

    As it turns out, hindsight is 20/20. Some people suggested that
    UDF is fundamentally unsound on XP and some suggested that
    nothing had changed in SP2 and some suggested that it was either
    the burning software or the media used causing the crashes. In
    the beginning, I rejected the notion that this was a Roxio
    problem, in either my older Roxio Easy CD Creator 5.3.5.10 (the
    patch to make it XP compatible) or my new Roxio Easy Media
    Creator 8. But, it turned out that it /was/ a Roxio 5 problem,
    albeit /not/ from corrupt or incompatible discs.

    My nephew who built my SP2 machine planted the seed that led to
    a solution by suggesting that it might be an errant device
    driver from an older, legacy app I'd installed on the brand new
    PC. He and his computer business partner later verified that
    they, too, could cause an almost instant BSOD crash on their
    totally different XP Pro SP2 systems. As it turns out, the
    common factor was Roxio 5.

    Early in my problem solving investigation, I'd learned that the
    native XP driver was c:\windows\system32\drivers\udfs.sys, but
    when I did a simple XP search on my SP2 HD - after cleansing my
    system of everything Roxio - there were 4 "udf*.sys" files. So,
    I renamed them all, uninstalled both my CD/DVD reader and burner
    drives, restarted Windows which promptly re-detected the
    hardware, and let it reinstall the udfs.sys device driver.

    That instantly stopped the crashes 100.0% (so far, my fingers
    are still crossed). And, as a side benefit, the volume names are
    no longer truncated.

    I could well blame my good friend Bill the Gates for not finding
    and fixing this or I could blame the SP2 beta testers for not
    finding it. But, upon reflection, I (now) see that the
    probabilities were against this being a wide-spread problem
    since it would require users to simultaneously be running Win XP
    SP2, Roxio 5, and UDF CD-Rs. It could /not/ be DVDs because
    Roxio 5 can't burn them. I /could/ blame Roxio for not advising
    me to upgrade to at least 6 to be SP2 compatible since I own a
    licensed, registered copy of 5, but they didn't. In retrospect,
    they should have, but it is still my bad for not more completely
    researching any latent incompatibilities. It goes to my 6 P
    Principle and my belief in never giving Murphy an even break.

    If I think of anything I left out in this quite long post, I'll
    reply to myself and add it.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 15, 2006
    #1
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  2. All Things Mopar

    Dontcha Guest

    Please don't. I'd rather read about digital photography.
    microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support is that way ----->
     
    Dontcha, Feb 15, 2006
    #2
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  3. Good to hear the solution, Jerry. Thanks for the posting.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Feb 15, 2006
    #3
  4. Today Dontcha commented courteously on the subject at hand
    Personally, I'd rather read about digital photography, but
    people continue to feed the trolls on all sorts of OT crap.
    Posting the solution to a very vexing computer problem that
    may, just may help other fellow digital photographers isn't OT
    in my book, and also isn't political bullshit. So, just like I
    ignore the president bashing and other nonsense, folks may be
    willing to ignore a /very/ occasional post or set of replies I
    make to a computer problem.

    Yes, 'tis true this isn't a PC tech support NG, but people
    here do talk about computers in the context of digital
    photography all the time, and we all can learn something from
    their good vibes as well as from their mistakes.

    As to the M$ news groups, if you've ever tried, it is quite
    difficult to get any decent help because people love to flame
    you for posting too little, or posting too much, or when they
    perceive you as stupid. The same can be true here, but this
    place isn't backed to the walls and ceilings by Bill the
    Gate's shills, the MVP, spounting the MS company line.

    So, please allow me the priveledge of minimally describing
    what I learned, in the hopes of preventing someone else from
    having such a long nightmare.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 15, 2006
    #4
  5. Today David J Taylor commented courteously on the subject at
    hand
    Thanks, David. You have no idea how relieved I am that this
    nightmare is over. The two days I spend in near melt-down mode
    as my system was spiraling down whilst I tried desperately to
    fix it isn't my way of having fun. I quit being a computer
    hobbyist 10+ years ago. Now, it is just a tool to provide me
    with the means to collect and share pictures.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 15, 2006
    #5
  6. Thanks for posting. I have had issues with UDF also,
    on an XP SP1 box with roxio creator 7. I wonder if it
    is the same issues. I'll upgrade to creator 8.
    I'm just installing a new system now.

    I'm of the opinion it is on topic as it is critical for
    digital photographers to back up their images, and something
    like this could affect many.

    Thanks,
    Roger
     
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Feb 15, 2006
    #6
  7. All Things Mopar

    ASAAR Guest

    I assume at some point in your life you heard the hoary old joke:
    It may not have been much fun while you were trying to solve the
    problem, but I trust that you feel *much* better now. :)
     
    ASAAR, Feb 15, 2006
    #7
  8. All Things Mopar

    Hunt Guest

    Thanks for the followup on the problem. I have had several versions of Roxio
    on several different machines. While I do not have SP-2, I also do not have
    any Roxio, except for one box. However, you point out that "vestages" of older
    Roxio products can still be hanging around, even with a full uninstall. This
    is something that I will remember, should I go to SP-2 - CLEAN the machine
    100%.

    Glad you got your answer, and thanks for the tip. I might not ever need it,
    but know where to start looking if I encounter problems.

    As you point out, with the BU of digital images to CD/DVD, this could well be
    a problem that many of us are likely to face at some time.

    Hunt
     
    Hunt, Feb 15, 2006
    #8
  9. Today Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) commented
    courteously on the subject at hand
    No problemo, Roger. This is precise why I did post the fix. To
    my knowledge, though there's no issue on SP1. What exactly are
    your particular problems?

    Learn from a fool - me - who's time was soon parted! <grin> Be
    God Damn sure what you're doing! I suggest you take the
    following precautions if you're going to effect a fix:

    If Roxio 7 works reasonably well for you do not, not, not
    upgrade to 8! It is a major resource hog for all the new bells
    and whistles it has. Being that I only use Classic, I am
    majorly annoyed that really simple stuff like Edit>Select All
    is missing. Worse, Roxio 8.0 is unstable and will frequently
    crash just trying to build a project. Other times, it fails to
    complete a burn, mainly for DVD-R and you have a coaster.

    I had chance to buy either 7 or 7.5 at a deep discount at Best
    Buy, but passed. By the time I was ready for a new Roxio to do
    DVD-Rs, all the old stuff was cleared off the shelves. Not
    every new version is an improvement, and it can be clearly
    stated that software is getting bigger and slower, and bugs
    are more prevalent as developers rush to market with anything
    new to snag new or upgrade customers.

    I haven't re-re-updated to 8.05 yet because /that/ was
    problematical. I'll do that in future. Right now, I'm
    conducting a search for a good HD image backup tool. So far,
    it looks like Acronis True Image. I don't want to risk another
    melt-down with something as brainless as the Roxio 8.05 patch
    before I have a bullet-proof restore strategy in place. Again,
    "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me",
    meaning I learned a very valuable, albeit a very hard object
    lesson: Murphy is always lurking in your house somewhere ready
    to pounce if you make even a minor mis-step.

    I can elaborate on what I did to finally fix my problem, but
    please keep in mind that it was an SP2-specific issue for me,
    my nephew and his computer business partner. The common factor
    was SP2 /and/ Roxio 5. Roxio 6 and 7 are fully XP and SP2
    compatible, so chances are you have some other issue.

    Before I snow you under, tell me about your problem. I
    probably won't be able to help you exactly, but I may save you
    a couple of days, weeks or months of effort. There's a /very/
    rigid set of steps I took to ensure I cleaned up the entire
    mess.
    Thanks for the support on this, all the way around, Roger. I,
    too believe that it is /on topic/ to talk about things related
    in any way to digital photography, not just cameras and
    lenses. Surely, UDF is much more on-topic that debating
    politics in Washington or the war in Iraq.

    Good luck in your quest for a fix.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 15, 2006
    #9
  10. Today ASAAR commented courteously on the subject at hand
    Yes, ASAAR, I do feel much better. It is like a huge weight
    was lifted off my shoulders. My wife is still suffering on an
    old Win 98 PC that is pretty slow. That's marginally OK for
    her, since her primary interest is weeb surfing and E-mail.
    But, Win 98 has always been an unstable O/S, so I want to
    upgrade her system.

    My intent last year was to get my new hot box up and running,
    then dump all my crap off my still running fine, fairly fast
    AMD 1600 running on Win XP Pro SP1, then load all my wife's
    software, data, and her Kodak camera and printer dock
    software. But, I couldn't start the changeover if there was
    any chance at all I'd have to nuke and re-install Windows to
    fix my UDF problem.

    My mother used to oft say "what happens, happens for the
    best." Well, at times like when I was drafted by the Army in
    1970, I had a hard time figuring out why that was good for me
    for a long time, but it really was.

    And, the good thing about this little UDF adventure is I
    learned some new diagnostic techniques as well as stiffened by
    already rigid adherance to the 6 P Principle, "Proper Planning
    Prevents Piss Poor Performance." No more major upgrades or
    system changes until I find, install, and learn to use a good
    HD image backup utility.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 15, 2006
    #10
  11. Today Hunt commented courteously on the subject at hand
    Glad I could help in some small way. I fought Bill the Gates
    for a year trying repeatedly to upgrade my older PC to SP2.
    Even when I said not to ask again, he still did, over 8 times!
    But, when I got my new one last year, I thought I'd learned
    enough about fixes to software and SP2 itself to be confident.
    Not.

    SP2 has doubtful security in my mind, after playing with it
    for 5 months. What it does have is slowness. HD access on NTFS
    is slow, it rolls folder trees out of its cache and I have to
    sit on my ass waiting to just look at a folder's contents. All
    my older apps and even new ones launch slower and page more
    slowly than on my old SP1 PC, even with twice the CPU, 8X
    memory, and a much faster HD.

    So, if you're happy with SP1 and don't plan to buy a new PC
    where you'll be stuck with SP2, just stay as you are and
    you're golden. And, Roxio, Norton, and all the others who're
    bloated, slow, and buggy in current versions for SP2 will be
    nothing but frustration and heartache for you.

    I actually installed retail XP SP1, that I'd intentionally
    bought during the SP2 feeding frenzy in 2004, so SP2 was an
    ungrade on top of a clean install. So, theoretically, I could
    nuke and re-install SP1 (no, can't roll SP2 back after more
    than a few days or a week), but it'd be a long, hard road for
    my computer builder nephew as well as myself. So, SP2 has to
    stay. And, Roxio 8 has to stay unless I can find a boxed 7 or
    7.5 on eBay.

    But, when my old PC is converted for use to replace my wife's
    very old 98 box, it will stay SP1.
    Hunt, you won't ever have a problem with UDF if you don't
    develop a workflow, as I did, that depends on long file names.
    I don't think I'm wrong, but if I could think of a decent way
    to accomplish my base purpose - easy ID both visually in a
    thumbnail view or via XP Search - I'd go back to 64 character
    Joliet in a NY moment, whether I've got a fix now or not.

    In the general case, the several folks who suggested that UDF
    will always be unreliable on SP2 are right, but the cure for
    me is worse than the disease. Stay on SP1 and you'll be fine.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 15, 2006
    #11
  12. Make sure you get a copy of UDF aware ISObuster:
    http://www.smart-projects.net/isobuster/

    Most of the functionality is free, but it is still cheap when you
    want/need all features of the Pro version.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Feb 16, 2006
    #12
  13. Today Bart van der Wolf commented courteously on the subject
    at hand
    What is this, Bart? It isn't surprising I've not heard of it,
    but I can only guess it's purpose.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 16, 2006
    #13
  14. All Things Mopar

    John Bean Guest

    It wouldn't have helped when you were getting a BSOD on
    mount, but it's a terrific program for data recovery from
    faulty optical media which has helped me a couple of times.

    It's also very handy for converting between various CD/DVD
    image formats. I originally found it from a link on a
    Microsoft site; they recommended it for converting their
    downloadable CD ISO images if you wanted them in some other
    format.
     
    John Bean, Feb 16, 2006
    #14
  15. SNIP
    It allows to salvage otherwise unreadable files from CD/DVD, including
    various versions of UDF. It also allows to create/write CD/DVD image
    files (not pictures, but a bit copy of a disk' contents). It also
    reads data from previous sessions, which may help if the most recent
    session is damaged.

    Of course, if the disk is damaged beyond error correction, it can only
    rely on statistics/multiple-reads to restore what's likely to have
    been there.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Feb 16, 2006
    #15
  16. Today John Bean commented courteously on the subject at hand
    Thank you, John. I'll look into this, although my problem wasn't
    partially corrupt discs. Also, if I really needed to do a
    conversion, I imagine I could copy the lot to my HD then re-burn
    them back to new media in the other format(s).
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 16, 2006
    #16
  17. Today Bart van der Wolf commented courteously on the subject
    at hand
    OK. Thanks, Bart. My problem was /not/ corrupt media, however. I
    only rarely get any lost data and haven't created a coaster
    since the days before hardware buffer underrun protection. Also,
    I use an informan grandfathering scheme to minize potential loss
    of data from short or medium term media damage. Don't know about
    long-term, I'm still too young! <grin>
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 16, 2006
    #17
  18. All Things Mopar

    Dave Cohen Guest

    You left nothing out. Most of what you included is wrong, wrong assumptions,
    wrong group. So rather than leaving anything out, you should have left
    everyting out and posted your problem to: alt.comp.periphs.cdr where you
    would have discovered endless threads on subject of udf
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Feb 16, 2006
    #18
  19. All Things Mopar

    Hunt Guest

    You did the right thing in buying a full SP-1 OS. I wish that I had done the
    same, as I'm about to build a new workstation, and all that I have is the
    choice of SP-2, or SP-2. Oh well, I guess that I'll just learn to live with
    it. Fortunately, about all that the ws will do is Photoshop and it's friends,
    and all the other stuff will get done on the SP-1 laptop, or on older W2K SP-4
    OSs. Maybe "Bill the Gates," as you refer to him, will get it right with SP-3.
    Who knows?

    Thanks for the Roxio warning, though.

    Hunt
     
    Hunt, Feb 16, 2006
    #19
  20. Today Dave Cohen commented courteously on the subject at hand
    Apparently you prefer to read nonsense about the war or politics
    than about something on-topic and germaine to those of us who
    care about backing up their pictures. So, Dave, please ignore me
    when you see me post, as you've concluded using your own logic
    that I'm full of shit, have no-thing to offer, and should go
    else where. And, you sir, are going in my dumpster.
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 16, 2006
    #20
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