Why Pentium?

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by Talal Itani, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

    It's not all or nothing, and factory testing is used not only for
    finding
    defects but also for finding the maximum operating speed and
    temperature ratings of each chip. And outright defects don't
    necessarily mean the chip has to be dumped because they may
    be sold as slower or lower capacity chips, an example being the
    earlier AMD Durons, which were Athlons with defective L2 caches
    that were partially disabled.
    Don't worry. Factory testing is done at higher temperatures than
    you'll
    ever use, unless your heatsink fan stops.
    Don't worry
     
    manny, Jul 4, 2006
    #61
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  2. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

    Taiwan brand electrolytic capacitors are aren't nearly as good as their
    other products. This is why some Taiwan motherboards have Taiwan caps
    for bypass but Japanese caps for their switching voltage converters,
    and motherboards sold to Intel or Dell may have all Japanese caps.
     
    manny, Jul 4, 2006
    #62
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  3. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

    But that's not business but art, engineering, and science. The most
    intensive business computing typically involves converting documents
    to printable form.

    I used to work for someone who gave the fastest, newest computers to
    the executives and left his engineers doing CAD work on 100 MHz 486s.
    Now I work for a much better person who gives the engineers everything
    they want, sometimes even before they ask for it, and makes the
    executives perform real work and get by with the slowest computers.
     
    manny, Jul 4, 2006
    #63
  4. Talal Itani

    Rod Speed Guest

    Wrong. It makes a lot of sense to buy a system which wont
    end up with a dead cpu if the cpu fan fails for whatever reason.
    Just replace the cpu fan and carry on regardless if that happens.

    Makes absolutely no sense to have to replace the cpu too
    if something happens to the cpu fan or say the heatsink
    clips give way or someone didnt install it properly.
    Its just another thing worth considering when deciding which
    particular cpu to use, like that chipset question is too.
    Presumably he was pissed off about having to replace the cpu.

    I would be too, particularly when that was one of
    the most expensive components in the system and it
    should have been designed better so that didnt happen.
    Irrelevant to whether its bad design for the cpu to
    end up dead due to something as trivial as a cpu
    fan failure or bad installation of the heatsink etc.

    Me too.
    No thanks, I chose to buy the cpus that were designed better instead.
    I still want a cpu that wont die if that stuff is neglected,
    because its never possible to guarantee that that stuff
    wont be neglected by someone who doesnt know any better.
    No one ever said it was. I JUST said that one advantage
    with an intel cpu is that you can have an intel chipset and
    that on the whole there have been less problems with
    those than there have been with VIA etc. Which is why
    I choose to avoid VIA chipsets when thats feasible,
    even when using an intel cpu.
    Which is another reason why I choose to use
    Intel chipsets unless there is a good reason not to.
    The problems seen with past generations of chipsets does
    provide some evidence of the capability of that chipset supplier.
    Sure, I dont normally buy the bleeding edge, and choose to
    avoid the chipsets which have demonstrated that the manufacturer's
    design capabilitys have had severe problems in the past.

    I do that with hard drives too.
    In practice few personal desktop systems have
    the performance determined by the cpu anyway.
    Or realise that hardly any users would ever be able to pick
    any difference any benchmark claims to see, with the main
    exception being with games. And bugger all personal desktop
    systems are used for demanding games anyway.
     
    Rod Speed, Jul 5, 2006
    #64
  5. Talal Itani

    paulmd Guest

    I had to reload the OS due to a virus infection on a C3 machine. It
    was running at over 800mhz, but I swear a P2 400 would have beat it in
    performance, no contest. Installing Adobe Acrobat 7 took FOREVER, I
    wanted to get out and push. The customer told me she bought it new for
    $400 sans OS. I think she overpaid. (I didn't tell her that :) )

    I'm glad the VIA chip works for your situation, But I'd hate to inflict
    it on an unsuspecting person. Lots of businesses have database systems,
    or Lotus Notes, or various other intensive apps. If you're just running
    Word, there's no problem.
     
    paulmd, Jul 5, 2006
    #65
  6. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

     
    manny, Jul 5, 2006
    #66
  7. Talal Itani

    kony Guest

    Seems more likely the heatsink was installed with the OEM
    thermal interface pad which "supposedly" eliminates the need
    for thermal grease, even though many do find grease works
    better.
     
    kony, Jul 5, 2006
    #67
  8. Talal Itani

    Bazzer Smith Guest


    Eh? A few here appear to be missing the point, what is I am saying that
    AMD typicall consume less power.
    You have 50 degree C ( I assume you mean chip temp, but you didn't
    bother to say) because you expensive cooling system is doubling as a
    space heater, hence you won't need much of a central heating system
    as you PC is doing half of the job.

    Your cooling system takes heat out of the chip(s) and pumps it into a
    room (as does a fridge by the way).
     
    Bazzer Smith, Jul 5, 2006
    #68
  9. Talal Itani

    Bazzer Smith Guest


    Err....if the chip is so hot that it is unstable then it is almost
    certaintly
    loweing the chips working life, OK it won't die overnight but it will
    reduce its overall lifespan. So you find an appropiate temp to
    run it at below a level which generates errors.
    Yea you could run at 80 degrees C without damaging the
    silicon in the short term, but you would get so many reboots
    you might as well chuck it in a furnace for what good it would be.
     
    Bazzer Smith, Jul 5, 2006
    #69
  10. Talal Itani

    Bazzer Smith Guest

    You have seen the adverts have you not with the 'intel inside'
    thing a then four musical notes dum dum-dum dum, this reprograms a humam
    mind and subconsiously tells it to 'buy pent-i um'. (same 'sylables').
    It's called brainwashing in marketting circles :O)

    dum dum-dum dum
     
    Bazzer Smith, Jul 5, 2006
    #70
  11. Talal Itani

    kony Guest


    Some uses are fine with them. Car MP3 player, light duty
    file or webserver are all good uses, and basic office, email
    and websurfing (except elaborate scripts or animations) will
    do fine too, but it is just so easy for a typical desktop PC
    to be used for something more demanding too if it is a
    primary use system instead of special-purpose.

    Funny thing is, I've thinking about using a C3 platform
    w/CompactFlash for a very quiet, low heat and power
    fileserver. It will be a shame that I'm going to put hard
    drives in it, more than doubling the power and making system
    slightly audible, requiring a fan. ;-)

    I've half a mind to see just how low power I can make it, by
    underclocking, reducing voltage to the motherboard chips and
    CPU I'm wondering if I can lower the whole thing to under
    20W (sans the drives, RAID card and Gigibit nic). It's a
    software raid card though, I'm suspecting I can't underclock
    the C3 too far before it impacts drive throughput. Seems
    like perviously I'd tested a similar Gigabit card and PCI
    controller and found a Celeron 400 was about the lowest
    performance level possible before the performance started
    degrading, but then again I don't think it'll need any
    particular level of floating point performance so the small
    L2 cache may be the main issue as impacted by a lower,
    underclocked memory bus speed.

    I'm more eager to get my hands on an AMD Geode, but for the
    time being the price hasn't dropped enough yet, the
    aforementioned C3/motherboard combo I picked up for only
    $35, and that it allows using a smaller PSU and less power
    continuously running as a server, means it's practically
    paid for itself already.
     
    kony, Jul 5, 2006
    #71
  12. Talal Itani

    Tony Hill Guest

    If the CPU fan fails it is HIGHLY unlikely that either an Intel or AMD
    CPU will need to be replaced. However, that being said, it CAN happen
    with either one. I have definitely seen both AMD Athlon and Intel P4
    chips fried from being run with a dead CPU fan. Usually this requires
    the user to continue using the system for some time though after the
    CPU fan stopped work, despite the fact that the computer would lock up
    every few minutes.
    If the heatsink clips give way you usually end up with one of two
    situations, either your system won't boot at all because it will
    detect that there is no CPU fan connected or your CPU will remain
    stuck to the bottom of the heatsink when it gives way and the pins
    will be damaged. Either way it doesn't make much difference if this
    is an AMD or Intel CPU.

    The real key is the second point you mentioned, what happens when
    someone screws up while installing their heatsink. This is the one
    situation where Intel's method of thermal protection tended to have an
    edge over AMD's. The vast majority of cases I've encountered where
    someone fried their AMD chip can be directly traced back to an
    improperly installed heatsink.
    A fairly minor one in my experience, unless you are not comfortable
    with installing your own heatsink. Intel had a better heatsink
    retention mechanism anyway which was more important in my experience.

    Fortunately though, all of these issues are in the semi-distant past
    now. With the Athlon64 AMD has a new and better heatsink retention
    mechanism, they have the same sort of thermal throttling and shutdown
    as a P4 and the nVidia and ATI chipsets for these processors seem very
    up to par.
    Better not buy either AMD or Intel in that case, if you screw around
    with the cooling mechanism enough either one will die on you.

    Cooling systems are not something to just ignore when they fail hoping
    that some short-term solution will save you. The real key idea behind
    thermal throttling in Intel's P4 chips was that a system administrator
    with an always-on server could get a warning about a failed fan and go
    replaced within the next few minutes BEFORE the system crashed instead
    of afterwards. This was definitely designed as a SHORT-term stop-gap
    until the problem can be fixed, not a long-term solution.
    As is usually the case, the CPU is just one of many pieces in the
    puzzle. It's performance CAN have an impact though, even for personal
    desktop systems. Mind you, the exact measure of "performance" is not
    always something that a benchmark will show you. These days I'm
    recommend dual-core chips to pretty much everyone looking for a
    desktop system, not because they'll finish a benchmark faster, but
    because they'll make the system much more responsive.
    The general rule of thumb is that most people will start to notice a
    difference in performance once the benchmark shows at least a 20%
    advantage. Before that one system may be faster, but most users will
    have a tough time noticing it. Obviously this is not a particularly
    scientific number or anything, just what many people have observed in
    practice.
     
    Tony Hill, Jul 5, 2006
    #72
  13. Talal Itani

    kony Guest

    Actually it is a sign that the person buying the system is
    incompetent, and the one deploying it as well.

    If even one moment is spent on considering the CPU's ability
    to shut down while there were not good fans installed (which
    make the risk of fan failure so remote as to be overshadowed
    by any other reasonable risk), the effort was made in vain.
    If there are good design decisions made towards cooling, the
    CPU shutdown mechanism is of very little usefulness, far far
    less than most other parameters in CPU selection.



    "Something happens"?
    If you can't keep "something" from happening, hire someone
    who can. This isn't rocket science.

    Same goes for heatsink clips and installation. Focusing on
    the PROBLEM prevents downtime. Ignoring the problem is what
    causes a perceived need for CPU shutdown features.
    ... about the last thing worth considering. Better than not
    having it, but if you need it, the person who selected the
    system and the builder/seller should be relieved of their
    duties.


    He should have been more pissed off about why it happened.
    As already written, if same thing happened in an Intel/P4
    system we'd have to assume he'd be a little upset about that
    too.

    Actually no. It is ridiculous thinking about the effect of
    a problem rather than the source.

    I could complain that a pad of paper burst into flames
    because someone lit it on fire, but does it mean I should
    buy flameproof paper or avoid tools that go around lighting
    things on fire?


    yes, it's "trivial" to do it right, so if the system weren't
    in proper working order for long term use, the problem has
    already occured, is not the future result.



    Then you choose to promote system downtime, failures. If
    the system is designed properly the odds of the shutdown
    feature being needed are too remote to be realistically
    considered.

    If you disagree, you have never bothered to learn proper
    system component selection for long term use.

    Ok, if you presuppose a problem then that would help.
    I'd rather presuppose the time should be spent on
    eliminating the problem, or at the very least, checking for
    this.


    Ok, and again, it is pointless to name an entire company's
    products rather than the specific one with the issue.
    Someone could similarly claim "I had a p3 1.13GHz that
    wasn't stable, this is proof we should never buy an Intel
    CPU". It would be an equally invalid argument in the
    context of system component selection today.


    Ok, it's your $$. However, using them means you are
    necessarily less informed through actual use of any
    alternatives. IOW, you may then know a fair bit about them,
    but not be able to reasonably contrast them to anything
    else, _today_.


    Possibly true, but we are talking about CPUs... which come
    in different speed grades and corresponding prices. Quite
    commonly people will spend more for a higher CPU # than
    other system parameters so it is only reasonable to consider
    what they get for the $.



    That's just it, the main difference is not just games. As
    already written, you have to consider the app actually used,
    not just the newest benchmarks of the newest apps. Likely
    anything else, software evolves too, particularly for newer
    CPUs the performance changes.

    If one presumes a performance difference from a particular
    CPU but without having the exact app and version they have
    made an error, and likewise trying to draw conclusions about
    similar tasks but still non-identical software. Games are
    NOT the only place where AMD CPUs outperform "some" of
    Intel's, it's merely one place where their raw performance
    is shown, as it is in most apps not optimized for either
    architecture. So pick your CPU then add onto it's cost the
    cost for all the software you need to realize the benchmark
    score.
     
    kony, Jul 5, 2006
    #73
  14. Talal Itani

    krw Guest

     
    krw, Jul 5, 2006
    #74
  15. Talal Itani

    paulmd Guest

    You could use laptop drives.
     
    paulmd, Jul 5, 2006
    #75
  16. Talal Itani

    kony Guest


    Sure, but that kills the capacity per $ and the performance.
    I don't really care so much about the noise as it isn't
    going to be sitting within earshot but having the fans means
    that someday I'll have to pop off the filter panel and clean
    or replace it. It's not much of a concern though, I already
    have a couple other filesevers with large filters over the
    entire 5-1/2" bay area and from the slow dust accumulation
    it looks like they could go several years inbetween filter
    replacement intervals.
     
    kony, Jul 5, 2006
    #76
  17. Talal Itani

    kony Guest

    You are overlooking that a gradual overheating situation
    with either AMD or Intel CPUs, has an overheat shutdown
    mechanism in place. Since Intels' was CPU-integral earlier,
    those CPUs have a marginally better protection but in
    practice you would have to have a rather unlikely overheat
    scenario- not as slow as if the fan failed, but not as fast
    as if the heatsink came off.

    If the heatsink installation was bad such that it didn't
    make contact, the clamp came off or whatever, the system can
    still fry a P4. It has been done, a P4's shutdown mechanism
    cannot respond fast enough to counter the rapid rise in temp
    from cold-off to on-without-heatsink-contact.

    Citing one example of an old platform with an ineffective
    means to power off a system with an Athlon in it is a
    similar situation to any other past era issues- unless you
    are buying that particular old tech, it is non-applicable to
    parts selections today.
     
    kony, Jul 5, 2006
    #77
  18. I'm surprised that the Intel only runs "a bit faster" than the old
    Athlon. That doesn't speak very well of the Pentium D.
     
    Merrill P. L. Worthington, Jul 5, 2006
    #78
  19. Well, silicon chips do seem to be stunningly reliable but they can and do
    fail or else there'd be little use for the entire semiconductor failure
    analysis business.

    Yes, and I've got numerous oldies but goodies as well. How that translates
    into modern processor with much higher current densities is another
    question, and one I don't have the answer to since the data isn't public.

    The issue of 'what temp?' should be, to some extent, almost automatic as
    the system should be designed to operate properly over the entire
    'operating temperature range' with 'normal' operation usually significantly
    less.

    I don't think that necessarily holds, however, for systems employing
    aggressive thermal management/throttling techniques because the processor
    can be operated closer to the maximum limit under 'normal' ambient
    conditions and throttled back in the higher temperature environment.
     
    David Maynard, Jul 5, 2006
    #79
  20. Talal Itani

    paulmd Guest

    I didn't think you were THAT concerned with performance, what with all
    that about underclocking a low performance chip, software RAID, and so
    on. :) I understand the cost aspect, tho'.
     
    paulmd, Jul 5, 2006
    #80
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