Why Pentium?

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by Talal Itani, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. Talal Itani

    paulmd Guest

    Intel and AMD both make excellent chips. Business have historicly
    chosen Intel because of heat and stability issues, plus most business
    apps don't demand the performance of Athlons. But AMD has been gaining
    ground in the Business market. I would not disrecommend either
    processor.

    Stay away from VIA processors, they do not perform. They're energy
    efficient, and require minimal cooling, and they're cheap, but if you
    have real work to be done, stay away.

    If you want a good, reliable machine, go with Dell, or have one built.
    Avoid Emachines.
     
    paulmd, Jul 4, 2006
    #21
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  2. You know every time we installed a heat sink on IC chips, we ALWAYS used
    thermal compound. It was a requirement. So you put that between the
    heatsink and the processor?
     
    George Hester, Jul 4, 2006
    #22
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  3. Wow that is hot isn't it? That is where my machine is supposed to flip out.
    I have the setting there. Can you tell me what it should never be more
    than?
     
    George Hester, Jul 4, 2006
    #23
  4. Talal Itani

    kony Guest


    There is no need to set a shutdown temp of 50C.
    The manufacturer or person setting it up merely forgot to
    set a more appropriate temp. 70C would be better, but if
    you want a machine-specific setting, run something that
    loads it and checks for errors (like Prime95's Torture test)
    and set the thresold temp below that which causes
    instability, as you would not want the system producing
    errors even if it weren't in jeopardy of permanent damage-
    and it would then possibly indicate that a better heatsink
    was useful in some situations.
     
    kony, Jul 4, 2006
    #24
  5. Talal Itani

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Wouldn't pushing the chip to the point of instability already be
    running a substantial risk of damaging it?
     
    Mxsmanic, Jul 4, 2006
    #25
  6. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

    What makes you think business people evaluate their
    computer purchases carefully? They're not careful
    with their pension plan selections, and pensions are
    far less technical and more financial in nature, meaning
    business people should understand them. The fact
    is that the typical business buys what's presented to
    them in advertisements or by sales people.

    There was only one reason to ever prefer a Pentium
    over an Athlon or later AMD CPU: Pentiums couldn't
    burn out from heat. But this isn't a problem with
    64-bit AMD CPUs either.
     
    manny, Jul 4, 2006
    #26
  7. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

    70C? No way. It probably takes at least 100C to actually damage the
    silicon.
     
    manny, Jul 4, 2006
    #27
  8. Talal Itani

    Clint Guest

    Keep in mind who does the buying at most businesses. Not the user of the
    computer, but the IT department. Their number one goal is typically keeping
    the total cost of ownership down to a reasonable level. This means they
    want standard equipment that's going to be supported. To them, that means a
    Dell or HP box, which has (in the past) meant Intel processors. The initial
    purchase price makes up a small portion of the TCO; it's the ongoing support
    and maintenance that eats up a big chunk of it.

    Also keep in mind that most computers at a job spend the bulk of their time
    idling along, I'd guess at less than 50% CPU utilization. So having a
    processor that's 10 or even 20% faster wouldn't be noticed or appreciated by
    most business users.

    That's my $0.02 worth. FWIW, I'd wait for the the Conroe processors to come
    out at the end of this month, if you're not in a hurry and want a dual-core
    CPU.

    Clint
     
    Clint, Jul 4, 2006
    #28
  9. Talal Itani

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Then why would it become unstable at 70° C?
     
    Mxsmanic, Jul 4, 2006
    #29
  10. Talal Itani

    Rod Speed Guest

    It was more complicated than that. The other real advantage
    with Intel cpus is that you could choose to use intel chipsets too.
     
    Rod Speed, Jul 4, 2006
    #30
  11. Talal Itani

    Steve Guest

    Hi there !

    You mean you assembled the Intel Pentium WITHOUT thermal compound in
    the first place ?????

    Putting thermal compund on is one of the BASIC requirements when
    assembling ... no wonder it ran HOT !!!!!!

    One thing Intel do that AMD don't ... that is thermal protection .....
    If a Intel processor gets hot it slows down...
    If a AMD processor runs got ..... it BURNS OUT !

    I know what I prefer ... as cooling fans on heatsinks, cases and
    powers supplies DO sieze up !

    Steve
     
    Steve, Jul 4, 2006
    #31
  12. Well, it can get complicated because companies tend to buy pre-builts so
    the builder's choices are a heavy influence but, of course, they try to
    make choices the companies will buy.

    However, the crux of it is that whatever criteria you (or the articles) use
    to determine 'better' is not necessarily the most important criteria to
    companies.

    Companies want a stable, reliable, trouble free (as much as possible),
    platform that performs the assigned tasks in a timely manner at the least
    total cost.

    To wit, 'faster' is not necessarily 'better', as long as it does the job in
    a timely manner, and there's more to cost than just the initial purchase,
    of which processor price differential is a minor component.

    There are also similar considerations from the system builder's perspective.

    For example, Intel makes compilers and chipsets in addition to just the
    processor and you can build an entire system from Intel parts. So what?
    Well, if you're a builder and have some integration problem there would be
    one place to go to get it resolved vs the confusion that can arise from
    multiple vendors each claiming the problem is someone else's. And that
    costs money, which might be considered more significant than a nominal raw
    processor cost differential.

    Many companies use a similar line of reasoning in buying pre-builts. Cost
    isn't just the 'cost of repair' because, presumably, the machine serves a
    money making purpose, no matter how obliquely, and it isn't serving that
    purpose when not working (which includes the stable/reliable/trouble free
    points I mentioned earlier).
     
    David Maynard, Jul 4, 2006
    #32
  13. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

    Some gates slow enough to not be ready for the
    next clock phase, but that's not the same as
    transistor destruction.
     
    manny, Jul 4, 2006
    #33
  14. Talal Itani

    manny Guest

    I doubt most business owners care about chipsets but only factors
    they can notice (at least on paper), like clock speed, memory and
    disk capacities, and cost.

    I'm not a speed demon. I simply buy the third-slowest or
    third-fastest motherboard that doesn't have Taiwan capacitors
    in the voltage converter.
     
    manny, Jul 4, 2006
    #34
  15. Talal Itani

    David Kanter Guest

    Eh, these are all true and false to varying degrees. IT depends which
    Pentium, which Athlon, which workload etc. Right now, desktop Athlons
    are faster (I don't know about cheaper) than desktop Pentiums.
    Think about why a business buys PCs. They don't buy them so that they
    have bragging rights about what is 'best'. They want to spend the
    least money possible to get the job done. If you want to understand
    why a particular type of customer behaves, put yourself in their
    shoes...sometimes 'better' doesn't matter.
    You'd be surprised...

    DK
     
    David Kanter, Jul 4, 2006
    #35
  16. Because internal time delays increase with temperature, mainly because MOS
    channel resistance increases with temperature making it slower at driving
    (the next stage's) gate input (and leakage) capacitance.

    It means the signals ain't getting to the proper places in time.
     
    David Maynard, Jul 4, 2006
    #36
  17. Talal Itani

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Is this something that varies from chip to chip, or is it fairly
    constant for all chips of a given processor model?

    I recall hearing somewhere that chip manufacturers stress-test chips
    individually, then market the ones that won't run at high speed as
    lower-speed submodels (rather like CCD manufacturers that test their
    CCD sensors, selling the perfect ones to pros and putting the rest in
    consumer gear).

    It seems to me that most chip defects would be all or nothing--either
    the chip runs or it doesn't--but perhaps there are things that can
    affect individual chips without ruining them (?).

    In any case, it makes me uneasy to stress my processor just to see if
    it stops working.
     
    Mxsmanic, Jul 4, 2006
    #37
  18. Talal Itani

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Is movement of dopants through the substrate a significant issue when
    chips run hot? Or does that occur so slowly that it's not likely to
    affect a chip over its lifetime? And how quickly does it accelerate
    with increasing temperature?

    I know that silicon itself is incredibly resistant to heat; you could
    add a zero to the typical operating temperature of a processor and the
    silicon wouldn't care. But the structures you build on top of the
    silicon are a lot more delicate.
     
    Mxsmanic, Jul 4, 2006
    #38
  19. Talal Itani

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Well, times change, but all I can say is that I lost to machines to
    AMD processor burnouts (they overheated and just continued to run
    until they destroyed themselves and surrounding components), and that
    pretty much soured me on AMD for a very long time to come. I'll take
    a slightly slower processor at a slightly higher price, if necessary
    in exchange for the benefit of a processor that's smart enough to shut
    down if it overheats.

    As you say, chipsets are an advantage, too. I've had trouble with VIA
    chipsets for AMD in the past, but no trouble with Intel chipsets for
    Intel.

    I suppose that if one is extremely strapped for cash and/or one wants
    to be on the absolute bleeding edge of raw performance, one might
    occasionally prefer AMD. But performance is really only important for
    games these days, and the price differences between the two processor
    vendors are small.
     
    Mxsmanic, Jul 4, 2006
    #39
  20. Talal Itani

    Mxsmanic Guest

    The list is even shorter than that: all they care about is cost. Most
    PCs today will do any type of business tasks that anyone might care to
    perform, so clock speed, memory, and disk capacity are all
    irrelevant--any PC will have more than enough of each for business
    use.
    You write off anything from Taiwan? I should think there are both
    good and bad vendors. Don't some Intel motherboards come from Taiwan?
     
    Mxsmanic, Jul 4, 2006
    #40
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