Why don't crop sensor cameras have crop weight bodies?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Wally, Feb 1, 2011.

  1. Wally

    Me Guest

    No point comparing a D3x with an FM. Better comparison may be an F3
    with MD4, which with a set of batteries in the MD4 probably weighs more
    than a D3x.
    The "less bright" VF relates to semi-silvered mirror in phase-detect AF
    dslrs, there's a secondary mirror behind the main mirror that reflects
    image down to the AF unit in the bottom of the mirror box. The CAM 3500
    unit in the D3/700/300 series is hefty, with a very large lens. Less
    capable AF systems (low light/number of AF points) are also much
    smaller. That's probably why a D700 weighs more than a Canon 5DII, and
    why in comparison, the 5DII AF performance is lousy.
    Sure - they could probably make a "digital FM" (or IMO, a "digital FA"
    would be better with PASM metering modes). Some people have been
    whining about this for years, and so far none of the makers have come up
    with one.
    Me, Feb 4, 2011
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  2. Wally

    Ray Fischer Guest

    So what?
    I am never impressed by ignorant fools who think that even though they
    have no experience or training, they still believe themselves to be
    smarter than engineers with gradaute degrees and decades of experience
    designing cameras.

    Know anybody like that?
    Ray Fischer, Feb 5, 2011
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  3. Wally

    Me Guest

    I don't know. Nikon introduced matrix metering with the FA model -
    before AF, even the F3AF. I think (but don't know) that metering must
    be with photosensors in the prism assembly, small enough and out of the
    focal plane enough so they can't be seen though the VF, and there's
    enough of them so that each focus point can be user selected as metering
    point for centre-weighted or spot, and approx spot diameter can be user
    selected on many models. That's 51 AF points /and/ 51 CW centre or spot
    points on D3/700/300 models. I've never seen documentation or stripped
    down a camera enough to see what really goes on. If someone knows, it
    would be interesting to see how it really works. But it works well, I
    had an FA, and the earliest matrix metering system worked really well
    most of the time. That also had spot and CW, but limited to the centre
    Yes - the Leica is in the boutique market. Breaking in to that market
    without a "name" and heritage isn't likely to happen. The major SLR
    makers could do it. It's a marketing issue - not a technical issue.
    Me, Feb 5, 2011
  4. Wally

    DanP Guest

    True, but look at the end result. That camera looks ridiculous with a
    long lens on it.
    And the controls are harder to use.

    DanP, Feb 5, 2011
  5. Wally

    Me Guest

    For TTL flash metering, I think also introduced with the FA, then later
    FE2/FM2 models - can't remember if the F3 had it. There was a separate
    small photosensor, recessed in the base of the mirror box, pointing
    toward the film. It seemed to work okay, but not even remotely close to
    as well as how current flash systems perform.
    Continued through to digital IIRC with the D100 (and D1?), when it
    became evident that with the complex reflectivity from sensors, it
    didn't work very well - worse than it did with film, so replaced with
    "iTTL" using pre-flashes for TTL metering on later models.
    Me, Feb 5, 2011
  6. Nikon used "off the film" metering for TTL flash, and in a very few
    models (IIRC the FA, FG, and N2000) to do a final adjustment to
    metering tp compensate for non AI-s lenses in Program and/or Shutter
    priority modes. I don't believe it was ever used as the main metering
    Mike Benveniste, Feb 5, 2011
  7. Cell phone cameras dominate. Everyone has one or three.
    Many people don't have a compact camera.

    Of course, for sunshine shots your average compact or phone camera
    does very well, and good ones are excellent. Indoors most need
    flash already during the day.

    BTW, utilizing a huge dewar flask full of liquid nitrogen
    and a tripod you *can* make available light portraits with
    compact cameras. Even on a summer's night outside, where just
    a small campfire or a single candle adds light to a moonless,
    overcast night. You'll still need some effective noise and hot
    pixel supression for your compact camera. Maybe even dark frames
    to combat thermal glow.

    Been there, done just that. With a big camera, sometimes using
    a big lens, handheld, and without the participants being frozen
    to death. And it's much more portable and long term storable
    than the liquid nitrogen.

    Yes, if you know what you are doing --- which may mean multiple
    flash units placed and balanced just right and a willing subject
    with time and tolerance (and the ability to act) --- you can pull
    off flash shots that look natural and spontaneous. But most
    compact cameras can't even adjust flash power, much less tilt
    and swivel the head. A few cameras have at least a hot shoe,
    but even if the owners have flash unit(s) they usually don't
    carry them casually like cameras.

    All of which means that I'll keep my big camera and use it whenever
    there's something special. Especially as I carry 'casual' cameras
    (plural by now) and know what they cannot do.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 11, 2011
  8. They still make film. You can probably have it cut into
    smaller sizes.
    Forget AF. Use a fixed focus. Or maybe throw in a switch
    Forget viewfinders, use a tiny, not parallax corrected tunnel
    Forget the LCD (and save battery power). 35mm film had no
    LCD either.
    But not much, and you don't need film spools.
    but can be shaped arbitrarily as an inbuilt LiPo battery.
    (Maybe fill one of the no-longer-needed film spools except for
    the card slot. That should give you plenty power.)

    Or use a standard round cell and live with the limited power
    it gives you --- after all, you never will want more than 24 or
    36 images. Film didn't manage more either.
    I've seen tiny inbuild flash on one-time use 35mm film cameras,
    so it doesn't need to be bulky. (It won't be powerful, either,
    just enough to light a portrait at 1 or 1.5 meters.)
    Keep the 24x36mm sensor, just cut away all the fluff, see
    above. Have it use a microSD, they are tiny, can store lots
    and can be exchanged by the user.

    Then you'll have the tinyest, most impotent full frame camera.
    (Think: small plastic one time use film camera for <$10 with
    development, but in digital). Noone will buy one as it'll be *way*
    to expensive, as the sensor can't be miniaturized for cost savings.

    And remember, the modern compact cameras are larger than the small
    models of their earlier bretheren: the screen already takes all
    of the rear and cannot be shrunk, either.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 11, 2011
  9. I seem to remember reading about some rangefinder camera using the
    reflection of a white painted leaf in the middle of the shutter
    curtain for metering ...

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 11, 2011
  10. Wally

    shiva das Guest

    The Leica M6, M7, and MP film rangefinders use this method of metering.
    I don't know how the M8.x and M9 work their metering because I've never
    used them.

    Metering off the shutter curtain was developed after the M5, the first
    Leica "M" with an integral meter flopped -- besides the fact that the M5
    was significantly larger than the M4 which preceded it, its meter cell
    was on a swinging arm that occupied the space between the lens's rear
    element and the film plane. This didn't work for lenses with extensive
    back focus, such as the 21mm f/3.4 or f/4, which would routinely break
    the meter cell arm off, or at least prevent it from swinging into place.
    (The modern 21mm f/2.8 doesn't extend nearly as far toward the film

    Modern M6 et seq. place the SBC meter sensor out of the way diagonally
    from the entire imaging volume between the flange and film.

    Additionally, all Leica lenses are sold with a leather pouch which has a
    50% gray circle printed on the bottom so you don't have to carry a gray

    M6 Metering circle:

    Same, close-up (SBC sensor hidden behind baffle, upper left):

    Leica 21mm f/4 showing the extreme rear element length:
    shiva das, Feb 12, 2011
  11. Wally

    shiva das Guest

    I was answering a question specifically about rangefinders.
    shiva das, Feb 12, 2011
  12. No need to answer our local pest. Worse Info doesn't even
    grasp the difference between flash metering and available
    light metering.

    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 12, 2011
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