Whole house surge suppressors

Discussion in 'A+ Certification' started by Flea Ridden, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. All I can say is we have tested it in a lab and even a properly installed
    single point ground , along with a whole-house surge protector can still
    lead to damaged equipment. You can choose to believe it or not, but that it
    is a fact.

    Charles Perry P.E.
     
    Charles Perry, Jul 9, 2004
    #41
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  2. Flea Ridden

    w_tom Guest

    Protection is required for every incoming wire to a building
    including satellite dish and television antenna. But National
    Electrical Code is not concerned with appliance safety. Their
    mandate is for human safety. Therefore 'whole house'
    protector on phone wires and grounded cable wire is required
    by code. 'Whole house' protector for AC electric is not
    required. We still build new homes as if the transistor did
    not exist. No code exists to protect household appliances.
    Therefore homeowner must complete the protection 'system'.

    Homeowner must exceed code requirements; install additional
    appliance protection on AC electric. Intermatic products
    (including the one sold in Home Depot as Intermatic IG1240RC)
    can put 'whole house' protection on AC electric. Others are
    sold by Leviton, Cutler Hammer, Ditek, Polyphaser, Furse,
    Erico and a very long list of other manufacturers. Square D
    also sells an integrated 'whole house' protector that does
    everything in one rack:
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z1B7539A1
    which should not be confused with an older Square D product
    that
    is undersized (ineffective).

    Earthing is required on every incoming wire. Some cable
    companies are now (finally) earthing their cable before
    entering the building (a ground connection to outside water
    faucet is not acceptable protection). No surge protectors
    required to earth the incoming CATV wire. Telco routinely
    installs a 'whole house' protector (for free) in the NID of
    each customer interface. Again, these are required by code
    and therefore (should) exist. But the most common source of
    destructive surges is wires highest on utility pole; wires
    most often struck - AC electric. For appliance protection, an
    AC electric 'whole house' protector is important.
     
    w_tom, Jul 9, 2004
    #42
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  3. Flea Ridden

    w_tom Guest

    Not much I can say without many the technical details of
    that test. How do we make 'whole house' protection work in
    telephone exchanges? One preferred characteristic is the
    'whole house' protector mounted directly on the single point
    earth ground AND electronics separated by up to 50 meters of
    wire. That's right. As much as 150 foot separation.
    Important to an effective earth ground / 'whole house'
    protector system is a short distance to earth ground AND good
    separation between protector and transistors. That 50 meters
    is additional impedance that help protect transistors.

    Polyphaser makes a surge protector that has no earth ground
    connection. Why? The distance to earth ground is so critical
    that the protector is mounted directly ON earth ground.
    Polyphaser is a well respected benchmark of the surge
    protection industry:
    http://www.polyphaser.com

    What can I say. Technique is so well proven that telco
    switching station, connected to overhead wires everywhere in
    town, need not shutdown for thunderstorms. I go with the
    people who have been doing this stuff for so many
    generations. The protection is only as effective as its earth
    ground.
     
    w_tom, Jul 10, 2004
    #43
  4. Flea Ridden

    Tekkie Guest

    w_tom posted for all of us....
    A classic case of this is proven at the School District where I work. Every
    electrical storm would blow the phone system cards in the switch after a major
    remodel to the tune of $2000 - $5000. All kinds of surge protection blah blah.
    The "brains" came in scratched their heads. I have been reading your posts for
    a long time on this. I said lets find and install a GOOD ground.

    Problem solved. Has NOT happened since.

    Tekkie
     
    Tekkie, Jul 10, 2004
    #44
  5. Flea Ridden

    Yep Guest

    Should we give all our addresses as to where to mail the checks? LOL
     
    Yep, Jul 10, 2004
    #45
  6. Flea Ridden

    zxcvbob Guest

    It looks a little bit like that. They called it a N.I.-something.
    Thanks, that what I thought. I'll call them Monday morning (I don't see
    any need to call over the weekend.) Actually, I might call them
    tomorrow and have them send someone out Monday.

    Bob
     
    zxcvbob, Jul 10, 2004
    #46
  7. I have asked w_tom on numerous occasions to state whether he is employed
    by, or has a financial interest in, the makers of the "whole house
    protective devices" that he strenuously advocates.

    He has so far ignored those invitations, which leads me to conclude that
    his advice is highly subjective and partial and should thus be regarded
    with suspicion.
     
    Mike Tomlinson, Jul 10, 2004
    #47
  8. Flea Ridden

    John Gilmer Guest

    You say that, but your defy sense.

    Your local protection will shunt transients to "local" ground. But "local"
    ground is ALL your equipment sees. It doesn't make any difference to me
    if my "local" ground even is connected to the "single point ground" back at
    the service entrance.
     
    John Gilmer, Jul 10, 2004
    #48
  9. What if the lightning hits after the whole house protector? Is there a
    reverse path also?

    Tom
     
    Tom MacIntyre, Jul 10, 2004
    #49
  10. Flea Ridden

    Yep Guest

    After they put out the fire there won't be much left!

    Sorry couldn't resist!
     
    Yep, Jul 11, 2004
    #50
  11. Flea Ridden

    w_tom Guest

    If lightning can hit between the 'whole house' protector and
    the protected appliance, then the protected appliance should
    be considered a different structure from structure protected
    by the 'whole house' protector. Or the building needs
    lightning rods. In the case of telephone exchanges, that
    direct strike just cannot happen. Will appliance be damaged?
    A question that can only be answered by "what are the better
    paths to earth ground?" or "more information required".

    Yes, lightning will go to earth via 'whole house' protector
    even if coming from inside the building. That is how a modem,
    damaged by incoming AC electric transient, uses the internal
    phone line as the outgoing path to earth ground. Telco
    installed 'whole house' protector is not earthing a transient
    entering on exterior telco wire. It is earthing a transient
    coming from the modem located inside the building.

    Not exactly sure where you are going with this question.
     
    w_tom, Jul 11, 2004
    #51
  12. Flea Ridden

    w_tom Guest

    What is local ground? Earth ground connects to transformer
    neutral ground connects to breaker box safety ground connects
    to wall receptacle safety ground connect to computer chassis
    ground connects to motherboard logic ground connects to analog
    ground (for A/D converter) connects to stereo ground for
    attached components connects to furnace enclosure connects to
    washing machine sheet metal connects to cold water pipe
    connects to CATV connects to ... So are all these called
    earth ground or local ground? Wire is not a perfect
    connector. Therefore earth ground and motherboard logic
    ground are separated by an electronic component called wire.

    Lets say your local protection shunts a 100 amp surge to the
    wall receptacle safety ground. Posted previously were
    numbers.
    That wall receptacle would be something less than 13000 volts
    relative to breaker box and earth ground. Why? Wire
    impedance causes up to 130 ohms between that wall receptacle
    and breaker box.

    Major difference is where the transient is earthed - which
    is electrically different from other grounds. Not only must
    earthing be at the single point earth ground, but a better
    installed protector makes the earthing connection on its own
    dedicated wire. Connection must not share an earthing wire
    with other protectors until all wires meet at the single point
    earth ground. Again, this is because of the electronic
    characteristics of wire.

    So which ground do you call local ground? The stereo ground
    lug that all other stereo components connect to? Breaker
    box? Water pipe? These are electrically different grounds.
     
    w_tom, Jul 11, 2004
    #52
  13. Flea Ridden

    w_tom Guest

    If lightning can hit between the 'whole house' protector and
    the protected appliance, then the protected appliance should
    be considered a different structure from the one protected by
    the 'whole house' protector. Or the building needs lightning
    rods. In the case of telephone exchanges, that direct strike
    just cannot happen. Will appliance be damaged? A question
    that can only be answered by "what are the better paths to
    earth ground?" or "more information required".

    Yes, lightning will go to earth via 'whole house' protector
    even if coming from inside the building. That is how a modem,
    damaged by incoming AC electric transient, uses the internal
    phone line as the outgoing path to earth ground. Telco
    installed 'whole house' protector is not earth a transient
    entering on exterior telco wire. It is earthing a transient
    coming from the modem located inside the building.

    Not exactly sure where you are going with this question.
     
    w_tom, Jul 11, 2004
    #53
  14. Flea Ridden

    Jimmie Guest

    A lot of the ones you by for residential use are pure junk But there are
    ones that work to a degree. A building I sometimes work at took a hit on its
    main feed blowing the transformer and two of the three powerline fuses. It
    completely smoked the lightning protection box on the building's main panel
    but nothing else was harmed.

     
    Jimmie, Jul 11, 2004
    #54
  15. Where I'm going with the question is that 50m/150 feet is a lot of
    separation, enough that a lightning strike could easily hit on the bad
    side of the protector.

    Tom
     
    Tom MacIntyre, Jul 11, 2004
    #55
  16. Flea Ridden

    sparky Guest



    You are providing a great deal of misinformation to this
    group, intentionally or not. A close lightning strike can
    and WILL cause a large transient that can damage
    electronic components. Please refrain from posting
    until you have researched the subject thoroughly.




    I am still waiting for anyone to
     
    sparky, Jul 12, 2004
    #56
  17. Flea Ridden

    Rowbotth Guest

    On this subject...

    I've been toying with the notion of buying some suppressors (two,
    actually) rated at the PIV of 240VAC, and putting them in a box so they
    could not be touched while they were in service. I was planning to put
    an LED across each one, so I would know if it was burned out. I thought
    I could determine the rating of the suppressor by talking to the
    Utility Company, and I could get an idea of the rating of the apparatus
    they use to provide power to my house.

    Connecting them would be to the incoming 240 V into my house - the two
    line conductor to ground (actually the Ground Conductor). Maybe a
    switch so I could change out a failed suppressor safely.

    Any reason why this would not work?

    H.
     
    Rowbotth, Jul 12, 2004
    #57
  18. Flea Ridden

    John Gilmer Guest

    Call it a "separately derived ground" that is connected (but not "bonded" to
    your "single point ground" at the service entrance.

    Actually, it could just be a nail pounded into the floor with a sign than
    say "GROUND." Your surge protector would still protect everything being
    served by it so long as ALL wires going to the outside world passed through
    the surge protector.
     
    John Gilmer, Jul 12, 2004
    #58
  19. Flea Ridden

    w_tom Guest

    Assumption is that CG lightning is permitted inside a
    building. Instead lightning rods and a steel skeleton provide
    protection. Others may claim that nearby lighting strikes
    will create massive electromagnetically induced surges on that
    long (50m) wire between protector and electronics. The
    resulting transient created by a nearby (outside) lightning
    strike creates trivial transients - noise. Transients made
    irrelevant by protection that is part of the electronic
    equipment.

    Again, electronic equipment must already have internal
    protection. Protection that can be overwhelmed if the 'whole
    house' protection system does not earth a typically
    destructive surge.
     
    w_tom, Jul 12, 2004
    #59
  20. Flea Ridden

    w_tom Guest

    Lets see those numbers. What are numbers for a field
    induced on those nearby wires?

    As noted in another post - how do telco switching centers
    install protection? Preferred is a switching computer
    electronics separated by up to 50 meters of wire after the
    surge protectors. If lightning strikes induced destructive
    transients on nearby wires, then telco switching computers
    would be often damaged by transients induced on those up to 50
    meter cables. Let's see some E-M number for those so
    destructive transients induced by nearby lightning strikes.

    Back up that claim with some numbers. A typical 18,000 amp
    CG strike outside the building and some 30 or 50 meters from
    that interior wire. What destructive electrical transient
    ends up on electronics end of that up to 50 meter phone wire
    inside the building?
     
    w_tom, Jul 12, 2004
    #60
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