Where do you want to go tomorrow?

Discussion in 'Wireless Networking' started by Pavel A., May 6, 2010.

  1. Pavel A.

    Pavel A. Guest

    Dear users of msnews.microsoft.com,

    There are rumors that Microsoft plans to shut down this nntp server.

    See this for example:

    Any thoughts on where we can migrate from here - besides of the web-based
    MSDN forums?.
    To Google groups, maybe?

    -- pa
    Pavel A., May 6, 2010
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  2. Any thoughts on where we can migrate from here - besides of the web-based
    Windows kernel people - to OSR's forums, surely.
    Maxim S. Shatskih, May 6, 2010
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  3. Technically what Microsoft is stopping is the Microsoft.* newsgroups
    in lieu of new forums style messages which can also be exposed as
    "locally published" newsgroups.

    As "Forums Newsgroups," you can download the MS NNTP Bridge


    that will allow you to continue to use your favorite desktop news
    reader to access the Microsoft Forums Newsgroups.

    It actually works pretty well. Not all the old newsgroup "names" are
    available in the MS forums. There is the kernel one:


    I'm sure in time that other providers will use the MS NNTP Bridge with
    NNTP gating software to mirror the MS Forums on their own NNTP servers
    as newsgroups.

    Its leaves us to wonder what will happen to the old mirrors, i.e.
    Google Groups. That probably depends if Microsoft will allow or not
    their name sake and branding to continue to be used as newsgroup names
    run by 3rd party servers. Maybe they don't care, maybe they don't
    realize they will care once its highly abused more than it is now
    where there was filtering going on, but no longer. :)
    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
  4. Pavel A.

    Lem Guest

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that the nntp bridge "works pretty well."
    At least on T'Bird 2.x, the headers and bodies occasionally become
    unsynced and the unread message indicator is unreliable.
    Lem, May 7, 2010
  5. Hi Pavel!
    Why not just stay here?
    You only need to use a different news-server than news.microsoft.com.
    But the group will still exist in the future. And the groups will still
    be peered to other news-servers.
    NNTP is a peer-to-peer system, so the down of news.microsoft.com will
    not matter.

    So just change your news-provider and everything will work as today.


    My blog about Win32 and .NET
    Jochen Kalmbach [MVP], May 7, 2010
  6. Pavel A.

    Stefan Kuhr Guest

    Hello everyone,

    Down anyone have more insight as to how the nntp bridge works with
    regards to authenticating the user? I wonder how it deals with my live
    ID user name and password and whether it is safe to use it with the same
    live ID credentials that I use to access my technet plus subscription or
    msdn subscriber downloads, or if this might reveal my credentials to
    wiretappers. All information it exposes in its UI is that it obviously
    http://social.microsoft.com/ForumsServicePreview/ForumsService.svc. Note
    that this is an http URL, not https.
    Stefan Kuhr, May 7, 2010
  7. Hi Stefan!
    It uses the offical documented live ID SKD:

    Here is a code sample:

    IMHO it is very secure... and not


    My blog about Win32 and .NET
    Jochen Kalmbach [MVP], May 7, 2010
  8. Pavel A.

    Barb Bowman Guest

    Forte Agent works just OK with the NNTP bridge but there is a problem with sync
    as well.

    Barb Bowman
    Barb Bowman, May 7, 2010
  9. Pavel A.

    Barb Bowman Guest

    Most US ISPs no longer offer NNTP servers and for the most part, the ones that
    are available are $ subscription based. The folks needing help will never FIND
    the free servers that are out there so we would be talking amongst ourselves.

    Barb Bowman
    Barb Bowman, May 7, 2010
  10. Yes, I did noticed that, and AFAICT, the REST requests are all HTTP.

    Note: the correct url is:

    This is a primitive 3rd party program. The author seems to be new at
    communications requirements. It uses the Live ID Framework Client
    SDK for this.


    And it comes with a C# example illustrating the authentication.

    For me, since my live id account is a junk account anyway, I don't
    worry about it - although they are beginning to force me to use it
    more now.

    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
  11. Ok, "Works as an beta" :)

    Yes, I noticed that myself with TBIRD.

    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010

  12. But there is a main HOP source. There still needs to a common source.
    And given the fact that the new systems were not merged anyway, the
    only real lost is the Microsoft NNTP server. That is a big lost as
    not everyone wants to go OUTSIDE the Microsoft server and other
    services will be lost too.

    So it will be a big change from that standpoint.

    A good solid bridge is all that is needed to use the new storage
    forums. This 3rd party bridge "works" but still has issues and is
    missing many basic features.
    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
  13. Hi Hector!
    No. NNTP is a peer-to-peer system... there is no "main"...



    My blog about Win32 and .NET
    Jochen Kalmbach [MVP], May 7, 2010
  14. Pavel A.

    Pavel A. Guest

    Thank you Jochen and Mr. Burn,

    I share concerns expressed by Hector Santos, that MS won't like Google
    or others carrying their newsgroups. The distributed and free Usenet has its
    but these techical NGs are focused on Microsoft ecosystem, so naturally
    they better should stay with Microsoft.
    If we can continue to use newsreaders rather than web interface (with all
    due respect to AJAX....)
    and still conect to the central MS server, then this bridge indeed looks
    like a good solution for me.

    -- pa
    Pavel A., May 7, 2010
  15. Pavel A.

    hector Guest

    Jochen, we are vendors of NNTP software. In addition, we are providers of
    newsgroups for our technical support where we have other customers gating
    the technical support news mail into their servers and so on.

    Of course there is a MAIN source. It has to start from somewhere. Most
    PEERS are going to start with the MAIN source, others will use a mirror.
    The topology is more like a star network where you main have many hubs. But
    there is a main HUB source which is not going to be gating to other servers.

    In other words, if you post on the MAIN (Microsoft), they are not exporting
    it to others - others servers are importing it. And so on.

    That means once this main hub is lost, so are its end users. They will have
    to go to another hub, but these hubs will now lose the MAIN source of input.
    Plus the lost of the nodes (users) off the star hub.

    Do not take it for granted the that world of users take complete openness to
    user external or 3rd party servers as a given.

    Maybe I'm old school but there are MANY people who prefer to stick with the
    resources and solutions that Microsoft offers. There is a reason why they
    even bothered to post the announcement here, even though the storage was
    already separate from the new MS Forums storage and they already have began
    to create and migrate customers there.

    Quite frankly if I was more aware of the fact that the two storages were not
    one, I probably would of left this venue long ago. Buts that me, I'm old
    school - I don't use 3rd party solutions. Its either Microsoft or we write

    That said, the MS related information has grown rich outside of Microsoft
    so it does help many and for that reason, maybe, it won't change much.

    You would hope not, but you don't know for sure until the plug is actually
    pulled from the wall and people actually began to feel that something is no
    longer the same.

    That is why the NNTP Bridge is important for Microsoft. My only concern
    there is that it's a 3rd party tool and they might be underestimating how
    important it will be for to minimize the impact on people's long time usage
    of the Microsoft NNTP based newsgroups.
    hector, May 7, 2010
  16. Example:

    You are ASSUMING that if you use server XYZ, that it will propagate to
    all the HUBS when one one is pulled from the star network.

    N5 U1 U2
    | | /
    N4-N3-N2 -- N0 -- U3
    | | \
    N6 N1 Ui
    N8 - N8 - N9 - N11 - N12

    If you consider Microsoft is N0 with its thousands of Ui users, once
    N0is gone, N1 and N2 will lost its source.

    Now, yes, N2 and N1 will will have to get different hubs. But there
    is now a HUGE lost of N0 information. And lets not assume
    google.groups is pulling mail from another source other than N0. If
    google is N1, N2 and its star chain is LOST.
    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
  17. And that software is?

    John John - MVP, May 7, 2010

  18. Wildcat! Interactive Net Server (WINSERVER)

    http://www.santronics.com (sales)
    http://www.winserver.com (tech support)

    NNTP is just one small part of a totally integrated mail system.
    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
  19. That is certainly not my (and many others, I'm sure) understanding of
    the Usenet network. It may have been a star network in the very early
    days but it is now, and has for quite a while been described as a mesh

    John John - MVP, May 7, 2010

  20. Ok, first, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups are not usenet.

    Second, call it what it want, it is still the same thing. A mesh is
    just a form of a star network.

    No matter what you can wish to call it, it requires coordination and
    each node knowing who are their Uplinks and Downlinks which is what
    experts in the mail distribution market, who still run the show, know
    it as. Otherwise you will have redundancy (and hence duplicity).

    An uplink is who you send data too, and downlink is who you get data from.

    Now, in a mesh, redundancy may be part of the expectation with
    duplicity considered a lower overhead operation then it was in other
    days where hardware did did not allow for such low efficiency however
    it still needed to be checked.

    In a well coordinated network, to minimize duplicity, the nodes are
    usually going to go to a more centralize hub (lets call it MAIN). If
    the Nodes are going to also serve as HUBS for others, then they better
    have dupe checking because they don't KNOW if their own nodes are also
    using the MAIN hub.

    In general, old and current, every node has a list of remote host they
    will connect too to IMPORT and EXPORT information.

    If you wish to see the PATH a messge takes from any server, see the
    Path: header in a newsgroup article.

    Viewing your message from the Microsoft NNTP server, I see:

    Path: TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl

    That means that it was posted at


    but it was also imported to:


    You can tell it was posted at TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl because of the
    message-ID: header:

    Message-ID: <>

    Now if I go to google groups and see your message from there, I see
    (all one line)

    Path: g2news1.google.com!

    Starting from the bottom, the feeder1.news.weretis.net! server it
    pulled from Microsoft TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! and it was gated thru a
    number of 5 additional servers.

    Well, #1 once the MS servers goes down, Google will not be able to
    pull from TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl! It will have find some thing else.

    #2, you won't have MS server to post, and if you found another, you
    don't know if Google will be pulling from it or that your Serer will
    be posting to GOOGLE.

    So no matter want you wish to call it, there is is a "backbone"
    concept where there is a main hub who is normally known as the OWNER
    of the newsgroup.

    In regards to USENET, this is different issue. This is in industry
    sponsored backbone. Not one company ones it. Its like a DNS.
    Everyone has it access to add and remove from it. As long as you have
    have primary uplink you can act as a primary server as well.

    Anyway, with usenet, long ago, we requested an alt.* group for usenet,
    It still exist:


    We abandoned it long ago around 1997 when it became a high volume of
    spam for us and the anonymous dirt was not something we wanted to
    bother with our customers with when it was gated into our support

    The only reason we had no problem abandoning it was because it wasn't
    our NEWSGROUP. We were not the main hub for it.

    Thats not the case here with Microsoft.* newsgroup. These are not
    usenet groups. The main hub was Microsoft where others pulled from.

    Now, if someone were to migrate all the microsoft.public.* groups into
    usenet groups, then you and Jochen would be correct, it wouldn't
    matter if the Microsoft NNTP servers goes down because they would be
    just a node off the backbone, not the main hub for it.

    Hey, who knows, Maybe Google's answer to this Microsoft dropping of
    their NNTP server would be to announce their own services to be
    available. But they don't want people off the web for the same reason
    Microsoft wants people to use the web. :)
    Hector Santos, May 7, 2010
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