When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

Discussion in 'VOIP' started by MrPepper11, May 12, 2005.

  1. MrPepper11

    John Nelson Guest

    And as such, they are subject to the "influences" present in the
    political process. For the FCC this means telco lobbyists, and the
    politicians who have been bought and paid for by the telco's (ILEC's).
    I disagree. For the hundreds of start-up VOIP providers who will NOT be
    able to gain the mandated access, the implications are meaningful
    indeed.
     
    John Nelson, May 22, 2005
    #81
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  2. Yes, this is of consequence to the VoIP providers. But the competitive
    telephone industry is so fluid that it seems to run in cycles. Back in
    the CLEC craze of about 1999 - 2000, we were barraged with
    interconnection agreements (we require a contractual relationship to
    send into the selective router). Nearly all of these have gone
    bankrupt simply due to the competitive nature of their own industry.
    Only a few remain.

    We'll see how this endures - and what will happen once the ILECs feel
    that piping broadband into everyone's home and replacing tip and ring
    with a line-powered modem and POTS interface better meets long term
    business. If that ever comes to fruition I've got to wonder what will
    come of the smaller VoIP companies.

    Don't get me wrong - I do appreciate the requirement to provide ANI/
    ALI information, however Congress should have assessed the impact to
    local governments in certain operating situations prior to turning
    loose another free rider.

    Steve
     
    Steve & Susan, May 23, 2005
    #82
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  3. MrPepper11

    Don S Guest

    Sorry, in my earlier comments, I thought you were referring to a building with
    a MTSO/CO/cell site. The Outside Plant Cabinets do have self contained HVAC
    units. Usually, only critical locations have a gen-set.
    The cabinet contains power and batteries, usually in the form of
    "mono-blocks". These are similar to a car battery, in that each unit contains
    6 * 2V cells, for 12V. The rule of thumb is to provision for 8 hours
    backup, but actual run time may be much less. As you noted, if it gets too
    hot in the cabinet, the radio/telecom gear will shut down before the batteries
    die.
    Those are called wet cells. Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) batteries were
    introduced as a "maintenance free" alternative to wet cells. They use a gel
    instead of the water. Unfortunately, they have proved to have a much shorter
    life span (~5 to 7 years) vs the 20+ years you can get out of a properly
    maintained set of wet cells.
     
    Don S, May 23, 2005
    #83
  4. MrPepper11

    CharlesH Guest

    At www.snaptrack.com, they make fairly aggressive claims about how their
    aGPS system will work in severe (for GPS) conditions (indoors /
    basements / urban canyons). Do you feel that these claims are over-stated?
     
    CharlesH, May 23, 2005
    #84
  5. MrPepper11

    Jer Guest


    All true, but the maintenance-free nature of the newer gel-cell batts,
    despite the shorter life spans, are thermally more stable, occupy less
    space and can be recycled. VRLA batts require regular hands-on
    maintenance, are comparatively huge, and cost more to dispose of even
    after their longer-term life.
     
    Jer, May 23, 2005
    #85
  6. MrPepper11

    John Nelson Guest

    Yes, with the Bell Co's always coming out on top. Hmmm.... :)
    It is coming, but the ILEC's are typically 1-3 years behind the market
    in recognizing trends and adapting to changes. My observation is that
    this is, more often than not, due to their reluctance to (what they see
    as) canibalize their cash cows. For example, in our neck o' the woods,
    Qwest took FOREVER to start selling DSL, despite the fact that there was
    demonstrated demand for it. Demonstrated, for example, by the fact that
    Covad was selling it hand-over-fist for eighteen months before Qwest
    even started, in one particular area. Today, Covad is hanging on by
    their fingernails.
    Out of touch federal officials? You liberal malcontent, you. :)
     
    John Nelson, May 23, 2005
    #86
  7. Quick question to interrupt an interesting thread. Is it safe to presume
    that if one makes a 911 call with a GPS equipped handset that it would
    provide the last known location to the 911 center? Or will it just go "duh"
    and not provide any location. Was this addressed in the regulations?
     
    Thomas M. Goethe, May 23, 2005
    #87
  8. Interesting idea. It looks like the system eliminates the time it
    takes to build an almanac, collects and sends differential correction
    via overhead signaling and is supplemented by TDOA (?) information
    through the network. It's nifty, but I'm not sure if it will work in a
    building using GPS or will more likely use the GPS to establish some
    degree of precision tolerance and then use the TDOA (or similar) to
    fill in when there is some impediment to getting a signal on the
    receiver.

    I'm not sure whether I want to be consistently blurping position
    requests, either. I mean, sure, you are constantly registering into
    the system as you walk or drive around, but think of it - a system
    that can use GIS to calculate exactly where its users are and where
    they are not... wasn't that in one of those Schwarzeneggar movies,
    where the advertisements knew where people were and hawked them
    everywhere they went?

    Steve
     
    Steve & Susan, May 23, 2005
    #88
  9. I've got to defer that to someone else. None of my PSAPs have Phase 2
    being sent to them yet. I wonder the same.

    If it's the last known location, what is to stop someone from pulling
    the battery or, if a lithium cell is used in the intrinsic GPS
    receiver, wrap the thing in foil, move and establish a call? Or, would
    there be a "doubious information" bit that is sent so that the
    telecommunicator could be certain to verify information?

    Dunno.

    Steve
     
    Steve & Susan, May 23, 2005
    #89
  10. MrPepper11

    Marc H.Popek Guest

    These CLT units are back on ebay! New shippment has arrived!
    They move fast.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5776785443&rd=1&sspagenam
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    May 12, 2005
    Cellphone Hangup: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?
    As More People Go Wireless, Patchwork of Call Centers Slows Locater
    System
    Upgrade Money Spent on Boots
    By ANNE MARIE SQUEO
    Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

    In November 1993, Jennifer Koon, under attack by a vicious assailant,
    dialed 911 from her cellphone. But the dispatcher in upstate New York
    could only listen helplessly for 20 minutes as the 18-year-old, unable
    to give her exact location, was beaten, driven to an alley and shot to
    death. The technology wasn't available to find her.

    Almost 12 years later, more than half of the U.S. still lacks the
    technology to find cellphone callers in distress. Though the federal
    government is spending billions of dollars annually on homeland
    security, the 911 system that Americans rely on to report an emergency
    hasn't benefited.

    With the explosive growth of wireless technology, more than a third of
    the 190 million calls placed to 911 each year now come from cellphones.
    Even as some of the nation's biggest cellular carriers face a December
    deadline to upgrade their systems for 911 calls, many emergency-call
    centers won't be able to receive the data. Virtually all of the
    nation's 6,000 call centers can locate land-line phones, but only 41%
    of them can locate cellphones, public-safety officials say. And the
    situation is getting worse with the growing popularity of
    Internet-based phone services -- some of which can't access traditional
    911 service.

    No federal agency has the authority to drive the local, state and
    federal governments, as well as dozens of wireless and local-phone
    companies, toward a solution. The cellular industry initially reacted
    slowly because of costs and liability concerns. Public-safety officials
    estimate it would take $8 billion and at least four more years to
    modernize the nation's 911 system for wireless calls. And that doesn't
    include the costs of updating the system to handle Internet phone
    services.

    Meanwhile, cash-strapped states have diverted funds earmarked for 911
    to balance budgets and pay for unrelated items, including winter boots
    and dry cleaning for the New York State Police. While Congress passed a
    law last year to pay for some upgrades and stop the state raids on 911
    money, President Bush, facing his own budget problems, has declined to
    fund that initiative.

    "These are front-burner challenges getting back-burner treatment," says
    Michael Copps, a commissioner at the Federal Communications Commission.
    "The government itself is still working on developing a nationwide
    plan. It just does not exist yet."

    According to the latest information compiled by the National Emergency
    Number Association, a nonprofit corporation focused on public-safety
    communications issues, only six states, plus the District of Columbia,
    have the technology in place to find 911 wireless callers from most
    places in the state. Three more are close to completion. Sixteen
    states, including New Jersey, Arizona and Ohio, have upgraded less than
    10% of their counties, NENA says. Six of those states haven't finished
    a single county.

    Even within many states, coverage is uneven, with some counties and
    cities receiving upgrades while neighboring ones haven't. A modernized
    call center in the South Side of Chicago, for example, often helps
    locate cellphone callers in nearby cities where emergency operators
    lack the technology to do it themselves.

    Big Shift

    Part of the 911 problem is the result of a vast shift among consumers
    away from traditional fixed-line phones toward new technologies. Older
    phones are easy to find because they are plugged into the wall at a
    specific address and aren't moveable. When a 911 call is made from that
    number, the location automatically pops up on the computer screen in
    front of the call-center operator who answers.

    But consumers increasingly favor cellular and Internet services because
    they offer cheaper rates and greater mobility -- the very thing that
    makes callers difficult to find. About 6% of the nation's 182 million
    cellphone users have gotten rid of their home phones, according to
    industry analysts, who say the percentage will continue to rise.

    Technology offers two ways to pinpoint wireless callers. Global
    Positioning System satellites can be used to find the caller if
    cellphones are equipped with a special chip, and the local 911 center
    has been upgraded to receive specific latitude and longitude data.
    That's the system being used by Verizon Wireless, Nextel Communications
    Inc. and Sprint Corp. Two other major cellular companies, Cingular
    Wireless and T-Mobile USA, a unit of Deutsche Telecom AG, are using
    triangulation -- measuring the distance of a signal from three
    different cellphone towers -- to locate 911 callers.

    But these technologies face challenges. Cellular providers using GPS
    have to get their customers to buy a new phone equipped with a special
    computer chip for their location system to work. In March, a man died
    in a Long Island snowstorm after calling 911 from an older cellphone
    that couldn't transmit his coordinates, even though the local call
    center had satellite-locator technology. Triangulation has proved
    problematic in rural areas, where towers, if there are any, are often
    built in straight lines along highways. That makes it difficult to get
    three separate measures to locate a 911 caller.

    The FCC has set a year-end deadline for Verizon, Nextel and Sprint to
    upgrade nearly all their customers to GPS-enabled phones. But even if
    the companies persuade people with older phones to upgrade, no similar
    deadline has been set for local and state governments to get their
    equipment in place to handle such calls. And no federal agency has the
    jurisdiction to set one.

    Internet-phone services offer an entirely different host of problems.
    These services allow consumers in, say, Boise, Idaho, to get a phone
    number with a Boston area code, which raises questions about where a
    911 call would be routed. Public-safety officials say new technology is
    needed to locate the call center nearest the Internet modem making the
    call, regardless of the phone number.

    Some Internet phone services don't let users connect to 911 or they
    route callers to nonemergency numbers. Earlier this year, a family in
    Houston with Internet phone service couldn't alert police that two
    armed robbers had forced their way into the family's home and shot both
    parents in the legs. When their daughter called 911, she could only get
    a recorded message to hang up and try a different phone.

    Later this month, the FCC is expected to require Vonage Holdings Corp.,
    the nation's biggest Internet phone provider, and others to provide a
    direct connection to the 911 network, according to commission
    officials.

    To provide a similar level of 911 service as traditional phones, new
    Internet protocols need to be written to allow the transmission of
    location data in addition to the voice call. New switching equipment
    and routers are also needed. The cost would be far less than the
    wireless 911 upgrade. Several companies are offering middleman
    solutions to allow Internet phone companies to connect to 911 networks,
    and Verizon and SBC have said they'll begin offering some direct
    connections to the 911 networks they run to companies like Vonage.

    The difficulties involved in upgrading the system can partly be traced
    to 911's origin in the late 1960s, when AT&T still ran most of the
    country's phone service. In 1968, the company decided to make 911 a
    nationwide emergency number. At that time, Los Angeles County had 50
    different phone numbers to reach the police; St. Louis had 32 for
    police and 57 for fire emergencies, according to the FCC.

    Because rescue services fell under local, not federal, oversight,
    officials in Washington left it to the cities to set up operator
    centers to receive calls to the new number. It took until the late
    1990s before 96% of the U.S. had 911 service, but some 200 counties
    still don't. Calls to 911 are routed to the nearest emergency call
    center. Wireless 911 calls generally get routed based on their location
    when the call is made.

    Crowded Scene

    The breakup of Ma Bell made the picture even more complicated by
    spawning dozens of cellular and local-phone companies, all with a role
    to play in updating the 911 system. In 1996, the FCC called for
    upgrading the nation's entire system within five years to make it able
    to pinpoint cellphone callers to within about a 400-foot radius. But
    regulators didn't tell individual cellular companies and local
    officials how to accomplish this task, or pay for it. As a result, the
    deadline wasn't met.

    "The wireless carriers were saying, 'We can't do this, our industry is
    in its infancy and these costs will stifle growth,' " said Anthony
    Haynes, executive director of the Tennessee Emergency Communications
    Board. Carriers also worried about liability issues if a 911 call was
    lost. Congress indemnified them against this in 1999.

    Local-phone companies have presented obstacles, too. Excluded from FCC
    talks outlining the upgrades, some wanted to dictate the technology
    used in the upgrades to make it compatible with the older systems they
    already operated for wired phones. Others tried to profit from their
    role as middlemen between the wireless providers and call centers.

    In the greater Kansas City, Mo., area, for example, obtaining wireless
    911 service from SBC Communications Inc., which provided regular 911
    connections, would have cost an additional $2.5 million a year, says
    Greg Ballentine, the director of public safety there and president of
    the Association of Public-Safety Communications Officials. So officials
    opted to buy and manage their own system. An SBC spokesman said the
    company never made an official proposal for such service.

    Even when money has been earmarked for modernizing 911, it often has
    been used for other purposes. This has been true of funds generated by
    special fees for upgrading 911 that dozens of states have tacked onto
    consumers' monthly phone bills.

    New York has diverted more of these funds than any other state. It has
    assessed a fee on monthly phone bills for 911 upgrades since 1991,
    longer than most states, and has the biggest charge, up to $1.50. But
    in a March 2002 report, the state comptroller found that the New York
    State Police in 2001 spent money intended for 911 upgrades on items
    such as $4.66 million for vehicle leases and purchases, $1.2 million
    for maintenance of radio systems, $19,187 for winter boots and more
    than $500 for dry cleaning. State officials said all of the expenses
    were related to the state police's "public-safety mission," according
    to a response to the report.

    During a training exercise in 2003, Rochester public-safety officials
    determined police and fire units had responded ably to a simulated gas
    attack by terrorists at a park concert. According to the drill's
    script, the attack had been reported to authorities by a citizen with a
    cellphone.

    "What if the person calling was overcome by gas before he could tell
    them where he is?" asked David Koon, a New York state lawmaker, when
    briefed on the drill. Mr. Koon, the father of Jennifer, ran for office
    as an advocate of 911 reform after his daughter's death. (Her killer
    was eventually caught and sentenced to 37½ years to life in prison.)
    City officials conceded the call center wouldn't have been able to
    locate the caller because it lacked the proper technology. Rochester
    has since upgraded its 911 system.

    New York City's 911 problems came under scrutiny in January 2003, when
    four boys drowned after calling 911 from a sinking rowboat. Rescuers
    didn't start looking until 14 hours later because they couldn't
    pinpoint the location of the late-night call. New York City upgraded
    its 911 system to receive wireless location information last August.

    After nearly two years of wrangling, Congress in December 2004 approved
    the creation of a national oversight office to spearhead 911 upgrades
    and $250 million a year in federal grants to reward states that don't
    divert 911 funds to other purposes. At a conference in early March,
    officials from the Transportation and Commerce departments, which would
    have jointly run the new central office, said federal belt-tightening
    made it unlikely that the new funds or new office would materialize
    anytime soon.

    "We're stuck with what we've got," William Belote, chief of the
    Commerce Department's Emergency Planning and Public Safety Division,
    told the conference, noting there was only so much he could do with his
    current five-person staff. The budget deficit, he said, makes it "very,
    very challenging to get any additional money for the federal grant
    program."

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    May 12, 2005
    Internet Calling's Downside: Failing to Link Callers to 911
    Low-Cost Services Gain Popularity, But Regulators Have Concerns;
    Routed to Recorded Message
    By SHAWN YOUNG
    Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

    When Cheryl Waller's seemingly healthy 3½-month-old daughter, Julia,
    suddenly stopped breathing in March, she immediately grabbed the phone
    and dialed 911. She repeatedly got a recording that began by saying,
    "If this is an emergency, hang up and dial 911."

    In a panic, Ms. Waller raced to a neighbor who called 911. But Julia
    was dead by the time help arrived.

    Ms. Waller, who lives in Deltona, Fla., with her husband and four other
    children, didn't get through to 911 because she was receiving her phone
    service from Vonage Holdings Corp., an Internet-based phone company
    that doesn't connect to 911 the way that most people have come to
    expect. "I think we lost our daughter because of this," says Ms.
    Waller, who says doctors attributed her daughter's death to sudden
    infant death syndrome.

    A Vonage spokeswoman says: "Our hearts go out to the Waller family. We
    are going to do everything possible to prevent this from happening
    again."

    Long a security blanket for callers, connecting with 911 service has
    become an issue with the advent of new technologies. Emergency
    operators, for example, don't always automatically know where a person
    is calling from when he or she dials 911 on a cellphone. But the 911
    problem is particularly acute with some Internet-based phone service.

    Not only is it often difficult for operators to pinpoint where someone
    is calling from, but in some cases they never even reach a real 911
    operator. That is because calls from some Internet-based phone services
    are relegated to what is essentially a second-class status compared
    with normal 911.

    Calls from these services sometimes ring at general or administrative
    numbers at emergency-call centers instead of connecting directly to 911
    operators. In some places, those general numbers aren't staffed after
    normal business hours. Even when the calls are answered, the person on
    the other end may not be a trained emergency operator and can't see the
    caller's address automatically.

    Ms. Waller wound up at one of those non-emergency phone numbers.

    Regulators are growing increasingly concerned about the 911 problem.
    Attorneys general in Texas and Connecticut, where consumers also were
    unable to reach 911 in life-threatening emergencies, are now suing
    Vonage for deceptive advertising. They charge that Vonage -- the
    nation's largest Internet calling company with more than 650,000
    customers -- doesn't properly alert customers to the shortcomings of
    its 911 service.

    The problem is also on the Federal Communications Commission's radar
    screen. As early as next week, the FCC could announce that it will
    require Internet-based phone companies like AT&T Corp'.s CallVantage
    and Verizon Communications Inc.'s Voicewing to offer full 911 service.
    The logistics of doing that are more complicated for some carriers than
    others. AT&T, for instance, also offers conventional service and can
    take advantage of its existing facilities in some areas. For all the
    affected companies, the process could take time and money.

    Lured by prices as low as $14.99 a month for 500 minutes of local and
    long-distance calling, more than a million people have replaced their
    conventional phones with Internet-based service -- and millions more
    are expected to follow in coming years, analysts say. But as Internet
    calling takes off, many consumers aren't fully aware of the 911 problem
    -- and don't know that among the various Internet-calling services,
    there are some big differences. For example, cable companies, some of
    which also offer Internet-based calling, don't have the same problems
    with 911. That is because the customer's phone number is linked to an
    actual address. (As with all Internet-based calling, however, the
    service won't work if the power goes out or if the user's Internet
    connection is down.)

    Permanent solutions to the problem are complicated for technological
    and regulatory reasons. Vonage says part of the problem with connecting
    its service to 911 is that in many areas the regional Bell companies
    control the systems that connect calls to 911, and the Bells have been
    reluctant to grant Vonage access to the system. For their part, the
    Bells have expressed concerns about keeping the 911 system safe from
    hackers. Some industry observers say the disputes largely reflect
    differences over the terms of connecting.

    Because of recent problems, Vonage is spending millions of dollars to
    set up a program, similar to the OnStar system available on General
    Motors Corp. vehicles, that would offer emergency callers a live
    response. Callers who aren't connected properly with 911 would reach a
    rep who would take information and immediately summon help.

    "No failure of 911 is ever acceptable," says Jeffrey Citron, Chairman
    and CEO of Vonage. He says the company has handled more than 100,000
    emergency calls without incident, but "we have a handful of situations
    where things didn't go as expected."

    Unlike traditional phones, where a wire is plugged into the wall at a
    specific address, calls routed over the Internet aren't fixed to a
    location. To further complicate matters, some Internet phone providers
    let customers choose any area code, and take their numbers with them if
    they move or travel. As a result, someone with a Chicago area code, for
    example, could actually be calling 911 from Los Angeles.

    To get 911 service from some Internet-calling services, customers have
    to register their address, on top of the normal signup process. But
    even some customers who take that extra step -- as Ms. Waller did --
    are surprised to find that their emergency calls are relegated to
    second-class status.

    Like Ms. Waller, Andrea McClanaghan, of Torrington, Conn., also a
    Vonage customer, got a recording when her nine-month-old son, Owen, who
    had been ill with a stomach virus, had a seizure.

    "He stopped breathing and we couldn't get help for him," says Ms.
    McClanaghan, whose son has recovered. "I was hysterical."

    They didn't realize that even though they had registered for 911, their
    calls to 911 centers could still go unanswered by a human.

    New York City has objected strenuously to the practice of sending calls
    to general administrative numbers instead of a 911 operator. In a
    letter to the FCC last month, city officials said the local 911 system
    handles about 30,000 calls a day.

    The letter, from the head of the city's department of information
    technology and telecommunications, said Vonage and several other
    Internet-based companies are, without permission, sending emergency
    calls to "a single phone sitting on an administrative desk. The only
    relationship of this phone to the city's 911 system is that the desk
    happens to be located in the same building where the city's main 911
    call center is also located. This phone isn't equipped to serve an
    emergency response or public safety function."

    Vonage spokeswoman Brooke Schultz said the company has asked repeatedly
    for an alternative but got nowhere until recently.

    Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal says his office has
    gotten 10 to 20 complaints about emergency calls with Internet phone
    services. Vonage, he says, buries details about 911 deep down in a very
    long "user agreement" that few people take the time to read. "The
    disclosures are incomplete and incomprehensible," says Mr. Blumenthal.

    Vonage says it is addressing those concerns. "We think our disclosures
    are good," says Ms. Schultz, "but we're willing to work with the
    attorneys general."

    Ms. McClanaghan and Ms. Waller say Vonage customer-service reps were
    dismissive when they called to ask why they hadn't been able to reach
    911.

    In a letter to Florida's Attorney General, Ms. Waller said the Vonage
    customer-service representative laughed when she told her that Julia
    had died. "She laughed and stated that they were unable to revive a
    baby," Ms. Waller says it took the company 11 days to get back to her.
    Ms. McClanaghan said it took at least four for her to hear back.

    "We've taken corrective action," said Mr. Citron, Vonage's CEO. He said
    the company has established a special team to handle customer service
    calls related to 911. She said customer-service representatives were
    struggling in an unfamiliar situation.

    Vonage and other Internet-based carriers say they are working on
    solutions that give customers full emergency service. AT&T says it
    plans to have full 911 service for about 70% of its Internet calling
    customers by the end of the year.

    911 HITCHES

    Problems that can occur with some Internet-calling services:

    Customers forget to register their addresses -- or don't update them
    when they move

    Customers call 911 but get routed to numbers that may not be answered
    by live operators, particularly after hours.

    WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR 911 CALL

    A look at how the system works using various phone options

    TYPE / DESCRIPTION / COMMENT

    Traditional Phone / Phone line is linked to a fixed location and call
    is connected directly to live emergency operators who automatically see
    the caller 's location on a computer screen. / Extremely reliable

    Cellphone / Calls to 911 are traced by satellites or other technology.
    / Problems can arise from dropped calls, imprecise location information
    and antiquated 911 answering centers.

    Internet Calling From Cable Companies / Generally works the same way as
    traditional service because the number is linked to a fixed address and
    agreements are in place for connecting directly to the 911 system. /
    Extremely reliable

    Calling From Internet-based Carriers / Caller registers an address
    (usually their home address), and a database routes the call to the
    emergency center nearest the address. / Even some callers who register
    their addresses can have calls sent to non-emergency numbers at 911
    centers.
     
    Marc H.Popek, May 23, 2005
    #90
  11. MrPepper11

    ptw Guest

    How do you do that with a cell phone and/or VoIP phone?
     
    ptw, May 23, 2005
    #91
  12. MrPepper11

    ptw Guest

    Is it possible to trace by IP address?

    caller -> 911 center -> VoIP phone company -> ISP -> obtain physical
    location of service (e.g. DSL/cable)
     
    ptw, May 23, 2005
    #92
  13. MrPepper11

    Miguel Cruz Guest

    Sometimes, but by no means always. Some people tunnel, other people connect
    through gateways that may not pass on the originating IP address.

    Some IP addresses are internal to corporate networks that may not make
    detailed geographical information available.

    Some people connect by satellite (such as me in rural Thailand at the
    moment, even though my IP address appears to be a DSL line in Washington
    DC), and it's very hard to make any guesses about where they are unless you
    have a list of subscribers and where their dishes were supposed to be
    installed.

    miguel
     
    Miguel Cruz, May 23, 2005
    #93
  14. MrPepper11

    DevilsPGD Guest

    In message <I6gke.333$> ptw
    In short, no.
     
    DevilsPGD, May 23, 2005
    #94

  15. I use them occasionally, when I can't find a number with SMS messaging to 46645
    to have Google look it up. Infone's a quality service, and cheaper than the
    idiots who service the ILECs. Recommended.

    No connection, except as a customer, BTW.
     
    John Bartley K7AAY telcom admin, Portland OR, May 23, 2005
    #95
  16. MrPepper11

    Don S Guest

    The VRLAs are the "maintanence free" ones. Many of the telecom folks are
    going back to wet cells (if they have the space), as they have a lower
    life-cycle cost (at least for the purchase/maintanence cycle - I don't know of
    differences in disposal costs).
     
    Don S, May 23, 2005
    #96
  17. MrPepper11

    Jer Guest


    I dial "0" from cell phones regularly for call assistance. I am
    clueless about VoIP phones.
     
    Jer, May 24, 2005
    #97
  18. MrPepper11

    Jer Guest


    The VRLAs are the "maintanence free" ones. Many of the telecom folks are
    going back to wet cells (if they have the space), as they have a lower
    life-cycle cost (at least for the purchase/maintanence cycle - I don't know of
    differences in disposal costs).[/QUOTE]


    And here all this time I thought they were using VRLA to refer to the
    wet cells. As I recall, wet cells have the higher overall cost,
    including disposal, but are preferred for long-duration drain times for
    the rated load, ie. CO. I presume "long" would = >8 hours. Cell sites,
    with their limited spaces, aren't usually expected to need long drain
    times, typically <3 hours, often have neighbour sites for overlapping
    coverage, and portable gen sets are usually close by for more intense
    times. I recall my buds talking about how Cingular eventually
    dispatched 200+ field people towing gen sets to Florida during their
    spat of inclement weather last year from other areas. They said it only
    takes ten minutes to plug one in and come with a ~week of fuel on board.
     
    Jer, May 24, 2005
    #98
  19. MrPepper11

    Rick Merrill Guest

    VoIP phones have NO "opearator" to call. (You get a recording.)
     
    Rick Merrill, May 24, 2005
    #99
  20. MrPepper11

    Ivor Jones Guest

    On Sipgate you don't get anything. Here in the UK the number for the
    operator is 100 not 0 - all phone numbers start with 0 so dialling 0 means
    the system is just waiting for the rest of the number. Sipgate uses 10000
    for a test number so dialling 100 won't get you anywhere either..!

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, May 24, 2005
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