What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera coming out are?

What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
coming out are?

 

they are already out. The sd9 and sd10


"John Doe" <> wrote in message
news...
> What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
> coming out are?

 

How about a compact point and shoot camera?

 

just cut the lens in half


"John Doe" <> wrote in message
news...
> How about a compact point and shoot camera?
>

 

It's called the Sigma Sd9 or something like that. Junk -- but cheap!

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"John Doe" <> wrote in message
news...
> What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
> coming out are?

 

"John Doe" <> wrote in message
news...
> What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
> coming out are?

Lots of speculation, that's about it. This happened...

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1070562816.html

Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.
Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.

 

"james roboto" <> wrote in message
news:...
> they are already out. The sd9 and sd10
>

I thought they were disposables.

 

Re: What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera coming

In article <PDuHb.2226$>, "PhotoMan"
<> writes:

>> they are already out. The sd9 and sd10
>>
>
>I thought they were disposables.




They are to everyone except George Preddy............................
























"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."

 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:43:39 -0700, John Doe <>
wrote:

>What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
>coming out are?

Realistically, and joking about setting a Sigma into fully automatic
mode aside? It's possible, but who from?

The Foveon sensor range is supposedly scalable from cellphone/PDA
cameras right up to SLRs. So far, the only manufacturer with product
is Sigma with the SD9 and SD10, and there are *rumours* the SD9 is out
of production. It is entirely possible that there are other devices
using the tech are out there but have not announced a Foveon tie-up;
there's certainly nothing on Foveon's website. However, there is a
VAR program getting into gear and Foveon's FAQ (Q14) states that their
current focus is the consumer market, citing Sigma's SD9 as a
"specialized application", so this implies a non-DSLR product in the
near future. So yes, it's possible. But who is going to make the
thing?

Canon and Sony dominate the digital camera market by percentage, and
they both make sensors for their own use and by others (some Nikons
use Sony sensors for example), so they are unlikely to turn to Foveon.
Fuji and Kodak also make sensors that are used by several other
players besides their manufacturers (some Olympus cameras use Kodak),
so we are left with three possibilities:

One of the "also rans" is going to make a wholesale switch to Foveon.
Someone will release a Foveon based P&S camera alongside their Bayers.
We'll get the P&S Foveon, but it'll be by Nokia and double as a phone.

I'm leaning toward the last one.

Andy

 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:55:06 +0900, "George Preddy"
<> wrote:

>Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
>can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
>conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.
>Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
>for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.

I think that's a some what bogus line of reasoning. It's pretty much
a given that the _typical_ P&S buyer doesn't even know what "Bayer"
means, or even that it has something to do with digital cameras for
that matter. Far more likely they look at the bottom line of their
"Which Camera" magazine and see which has the highest score and number
of megapixels at a price they can afford. That's not a DSLR, and by
implication since the only cameras using the Foveon are the Sigma
DSLRs, it's not a Foveon based camera - the technology doesn't even
get to enter the equation, let alone play a significant part of it.

I don't think Foveon's issues are with the end-user perception of the
technology at all; I think it's more to do with the fact that there is
no way that a DSLR, even at the $500 you mentioned the other day, is
going to get the kind of volume a popular P&S camera can. Sigma does
not appear to have any interest in a P&S, which is not suprising since
you can't sell lenses with a P&S and lenses are still Sigma's biggest
revenue maker. To get volume from the camera market Foveon needs
either a conventional P&S camera or a built-in on another device like
a PDA or a phone.

It's the latter that seems likely to me given the *huge* amount of
time that has passed with no P&S Foveon, despite the sensor hardware
being readily available. Nokia has been talking about multi-megapixel
camera phones for a while, Sony has them in its higher end Clié PDAs
right now and both those markets have more potential to be the real
death knell for consumer film photography than P&S digicams.

For another view on this, take a look at Foveon's FAQ in the "Consumer
and Professional Products" section. Below all the stuff about the
Sigma deal and the reference to "Foveon is actively engaged with
other major digital camera manufacturers" which has been up there
"forever", as you say in reference to the Kodak rumour, is some more
interesting text.

Firstly, any imminent announcements about video cameras seem to be out
of the equation (Q9), ditto for scanners (Q13). The real meat however
is Q14 - Foveon is currently focused on the "mass market", and does
not include Sigma in this - they are cited as a "specialized
application". I read this as saying a DSLR is specialized, which I
agree with since if you are not prepared to put the effort into
learning to drive a DSLR, then you would probably be better with a
P&S. Then they announce a VAR program targetted at the "industrial
and scientific imaging market", it looks to me like they may have
written off the camera market as a revenue stream.

I'd have really liked to see a non-Sigma Foveon based DSLR to get
something else to critique the technology with, but my hopes of that
ever coming to pass are all but gone. Right now, I doubt we'll even
see it in a non-Sigma camera.

Andy

 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:55:06 +0900, "George Preddy"
<> wrote:

>
>"John Doe" <> wrote in message
>news...
>> What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
>> coming out are?
>
>Lots of speculation, that's about it. This happened...
>
>http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1070562816.html
>
>Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
>can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
>conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.
>Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
>for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.
>
Sounds AOK there GP ...looking forward to NFS(new-fun-stuff) on the
DGCs in 04 ! MC & HNY everyone!!

 

> > "John Doe" <> wrote
> > What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
> > coming out are?

> "George Preddy" <> wrote
> Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general public
> can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very well
> conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite risky.

I don't think it matters squat to the public, what it is that makes the
beautiful pictures. They just want to point, shoot and be dazzled

Recall what many technologists said about the CMOS sensor a decade ago?

 

"Andy Blanchard" <> wrote in message
news:...
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:55:06 +0900, "George Preddy"
> <> wrote:
>
> >Personally I think Foveon has slowly come to release that the general
public
> >can't grasp the concept behind their technology as most have been very
well
> >conditioned to believe Bayers have full color MPs, so the 5M is quite
risky.
> >Rumors of Kodak linking up with Foveon have been around forever, possibly
> >for a P&S. They really should've put the Pro 10M in the 14n.
>
> I think that's a some what bogus line of reasoning. It's pretty much
> a given that the _typical_ P&S buyer doesn't even know what "Bayer"
> means, or even that it has something to do with digital cameras for
> that matter. Far more likely they look at the bottom line of their
> "Which Camera" magazine and see which has the highest score and number
> of megapixels at a price they can afford. That's not a DSLR, and by
> implication since the only cameras using the Foveon are the Sigma
> DSLRs, it's not a Foveon based camera - the technology doesn't even
> get to enter the equation, let alone play a significant part of it.

I'd agree but for one thing, the 5M will be categorized and rated as a 1MP
camera. Obviously that is silly as it would be a killer P&S, but that
doesn't matter.

> I don't think Foveon's issues are with the end-user perception of the
> technology at all; I think it's more to do with the fact that there is
> no way that a DSLR, even at the $500 you mentioned the other day, is
> going to get the kind of volume a popular P&S camera can. Sigma does
> not appear to have any interest in a P&S, which is not suprising since
> you can't sell lenses with a P&S and lenses are still Sigma's biggest
> revenue maker. To get volume from the camera market Foveon needs
> either a conventional P&S camera or a built-in on another device like
> a PDA or a phone.

Yes, I agree. Sigma's grand plan centers on two things: not having a
vested interest in the P&S market, and they are a lens maker not a camera
maker, primarily. Both facts together put them in a very unique position
to sell DSLR bodies below cost and recoup all and more on lens sales, and
they can do it without shooting their own prosumer line in the foot. The
other DSLRs makers are being forced into a very tough position. It's very
smart on Sigma's part, and the ball and chain they are placing on other DSLR
prices also works very much to their advantage to sell high value lenses in
other mounts.

It's brilliant, really, regardless of what one thinks of them. Probably the
most overtly aggressive marketing strategy we've seen since digital cameras
came out.

> It's the latter that seems likely to me given the *huge* amount of
> time that has passed with no P&S Foveon, despite the sensor hardware
> being readily available. Nokia has been talking about multi-megapixel
> camera phones for a while, Sony has them in its higher end Clié PDAs
> right now and both those markets have more potential to be the real
> death knell for consumer film photography than P&S digicams.
>
> For another view on this, take a look at Foveon's FAQ in the "Consumer
> and Professional Products" section. Below all the stuff about the
> Sigma deal and the reference to "Foveon is actively engaged with
> other major digital camera manufacturers" which has been up there
> "forever", as you say in reference to the Kodak rumour, is some more
> interesting text.

Yes, they've always said they want to follow an inclusive business model.
At one point (first Foveon prototype) the NSC CEO said they weren't
interested in selling thousands of cameras, but milions He specifically
referred to their new Foveon CMOS processes as facilitating disposable
digital cameras selling in the few dollar range.

But...

I personally think that is NSC talking. I think Foveon is at its heart a
high tech co., and they don't want to be type cast as low end, at least not
yet. I think you'll see a higher end sensor released before, or as a
minimum along with, the adoption of the 5M in a P&S model. Unless the price
point for a Foveon 5MP P&S is really earth shattering, like $150 or so, and
thus highlights their technological prowess in some round about way. That
could appease NSC too.

The risk is that it will be categorized as a 1MP camera. Then again, if the
image quality is actually tested and acknowledged, it could be a boon as
P&S'ers might gravitate toward the naturally lower bandwidth of Foveon
sensors.

> Firstly, any imminent announcements about video cameras seem to be out
> of the equation (Q9), ditto for scanners (Q13). The real meat however
> is Q14 - Foveon is currently focused on the "mass market", and does
> not include Sigma in this - they are cited as a "specialized
> application". I read this as saying a DSLR is specialized, which I
> agree with since if you are not prepared to put the effort into
> learning to drive a DSLR, then you would probably be better with a
> P&S. Then they announce a VAR program targetted at the "industrial
> and scientific imaging market", it looks to me like they may have
> written off the camera market as a revenue stream.
>
> I'd have really liked to see a non-Sigma Foveon based DSLR to get
> something else to critique the technology with, but my hopes of that
> ever coming to pass are all but gone. Right now, I doubt we'll even
> see it in a non-Sigma camera.

I don't know. It'll be very interesting to see unfold. Contrary to common
trolling, Sigma has a real hit on their hand with the SDs. I'm certain what
they have managed to accomplish, in such a short period of time, amazes even
them. The SDs are terrific DSLRs. The 10 is hard to fault for anything,
which is why most of the big-money-sponsored pro review sites and magazines
are taking the old "maybe if we ignore it it will go away" approach.

Personally, I think Foveon owes a special debt of gratitude to Sigma, so I
think they'll will have first hack at the next gen Foveon chip, if only for
a short period of time.

 

In message <>,
John Doe <> wrote:

>How about a compact point and shoot camera?

There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it never
materialized.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

 

<> wrote in message
news:...
> In message <>,
> John Doe <> wrote:
>
> >How about a compact point and shoot camera?
>
> There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it never
> materialized.

Link?

 

Thanks Andy. That was very informative.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:38:30 +0000, Andy Blanchard wrote:
> ...snip...
> Firstly, any imminent announcements about video cameras seem to be out
> of the equation (Q9), ditto for scanners (Q13). The real meat however
> is Q14 - Foveon is currently focused on the "mass market", and does
> not include Sigma in this - they are cited as a "specialized
> application". I read this as saying a DSLR is specialized, which I
> agree with since if you are not prepared to put the effort into
> learning to drive a DSLR, then you would probably be better with a
> P&S. Then they announce a VAR program targetted at the "industrial
> and scientific imaging market", it looks to me like they may have
> written off the camera market as a revenue stream.
>
> I'd have really liked to see a non-Sigma Foveon based DSLR to get
> something else to critique the technology with, but my hopes of that
> ever coming to pass are all but gone. Right now, I doubt we'll even
> see it in a non-Sigma camera.
>
> Andy

 

In message <bstaiq$t6p$>,
"George Preddy" <> wrote:

><> wrote in message
>news:...
>> In message <>,
>> John Doe <> wrote:
>>
>> >How about a compact point and shoot camera?
>>
>> There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it never
>> materialized.
>
>Link?

No. Search.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

 

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:53:10 -0500, "james roboto" <>
wrote:

>they are already out. The sd9 and sd10

LOL. That's cruel!

>
>
>"John Doe" <> wrote in message
>news...
>> What do you think the chances are of a foveon point and shoot camera
>> coming out are?
>

 

<> wrote in message
news:...
> In message <bstaiq$t6p$>,
> "George Preddy" <> wrote:
>
> ><> wrote in message
> >news:...
> >> In message <>,
> >> John Doe <> wrote:
> >>
> >> >How about a compact point and shoot camera?
> >>
> >> There was one announced at dpreview.com back in the spring, but it
never
> >> materialized.
> >
> >Link?
>
> No. Search.

Nothing there.