Voip implementation

Discussion in 'VOIP' started by Trilok, Apr 21, 2004.

  1. Trilok

    John Guest

    Perfect application for 1A2 and it still works if the power goes out. Free
    music on hold as the interrupter goes Ka-Chunk Ka-Chunk. I've still gotta
    couple of them out there horse farms and such. I didn't mind the guy selling
    the sx-200 it was the misrepresentation of its age that bothered me. I'm
    sure you didn't tell the guy at the boat yard that the 551 was brand new and
    state of the art and walk away with brand new system money in your pocket.
    Are you in Iowa, what systems do you do other than Mitel?

    John 807
    John, Apr 29, 2004
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  2. Trilok

    Mitel Lurker Guest

    I'm in Texas. Used to be from Iowa, and still go back for visits now and
    then. It was during one of those visits that the old friend prevailed upon
    me to set him up with something dirt cheap but reliable. I basically
    contributed my labor. He contributed the beer and gave me $300 for the
    KSU, phones, cabling, spares, etc. He & his kid pulled the cables through
    the ceiling, I punched them down, ran a couple dozen jumbers and made the
    sign of the cross with my foot when we fired it all up. Ooops, forgot they
    were 2565's; can't bridge 'em without pulling the violets off... ;)

    Today I am employed by a major energy company. Much to the chegrin of
    local area service shops, we are COAM and do it all ourselves, from power
    & grounding & startup commissioning to advanced ARS. Counting me there are
    4 of us on staff all with Mitel certs through LW32 rls 2 and MN3300 rls
    4.1, including Ops Man, ACD-2000, ISDN PRI and oh yeah, [email protected] At one
    time we were (may still be) one of Mitel's largest "all DC powered"
    customers (except for the new MN3300 stuff). We've been a Mitel customer
    (and COAM) since 1985. For diversity, I also have a 300-seat Etrali
    Etradeal turret system networked (ETSI Q.sig) to the Mitel. It's enhanced
    Q.sig over 4 E1 Pri's including the usual CLI/CNI plus CFwd BZ/NA reason
    codes, MWI set/clear & transparent integration to a pair of networked
    Octel Overture 250's.

    Mitel's 3300 VOIP system is way cool and blows the competition away.
    Mitel Lurker, Apr 30, 2004
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  3. Trilok

    Nortec in MN Guest

    I think you need to take a good look at the competition. After, you can
    edit your above statement to:
    "Mitel's 3300 VOIP system blows."
    Nortec in MN, Apr 30, 2004
  4. Trilok

    Mitel Lurker Guest

    Granted, I haven't seen all the competing products, but I have seen both
    the Cisco Call Manager and their Call Manager Express, actual systems in
    service and working, not the spiffy "lab queens" set up in Cisco's
    show-n-tell customer seminars. I have also talked to the techs who
    installed and maintain the stuff. Funny how much different of a picture
    they paint than the rosy picture painted by the sales bunch.

    The best I can think of to describe the Cisco offering in a real world
    setting is to say it's a general hodge-podge of applications and adjunct
    devices all hanging off the network and managed by a cluster of Intel
    based servers running an assortment of ->CISCO PROPRIETARY<- versions of
    Microsoft products (SQL, Win2K Server, MS Exchange, etc). The real beauty
    is that the whole shootin' match of course comes with Cisco's standard
    90-day warranty, after which everything must be put on a Smartnet contract
    else you get no support. Imagine that, no support beyond 90 days unless
    you agree to be held hostage and pay a recurring ransom. You can't even
    (legally) download the latest IOS bugswats (past 90 days) unless you
    either pay for the new IOS or pay for Smartnet. The cost of a basic IOS
    used to be pretty reasonable, but it seems now that Cisco has plugged that
    hole, making the cost of an IOS upgrade nearly equal that of the cost of a
    smartnet contract. The obvious question that comes to mind is, "how many
    more times do I have to keep paying for this?"

    Go into a site with only a basic 2600 router and you'll find yourself
    having to replace that router and possibly even add another one. You'll
    also need some additional flash and Dram.

    Ask Cisco if they can emulate a key system with a "common ringer" for
    multiple incoming lines to all ring the same bell (i.e., a set of Dan-Mac
    barn bells or a Claxon buzzer or a yard whistle) and look at the blank
    stares on their faces. Need a pc/laptop based soft phone? If you do you'll
    need their centralized Call Manager product because you sure can't do it
    with CME.

    Mitel at least gives you a full 1-year warranty on their hardware and you
    get lifetime free software upgrades. The Mitel (3300) also includes
    built-in voice mail and supports legacy TDM devices in addition to the IP
    stuff. With the Mitel solution you will -not- need to replace your router
    or add another one. Mitel is also -not- based on any Windows/Intel

    VOIP (in general) may be viable in *new* small & medium sized office
    installations, but IMO for forklift replacement of existing TDM systems or
    going into a large enterprise (corporate office) setting, you're going to
    find yourself pouring cubic dollars into it, no matter whose system you
    buy. IP phones also require power, either via a local wall wart or from a
    power-insertion device in the switch in the wiring closet. That can be a
    problem all its own in harsh environments. I know several places where I
    have phones today where there is no AC power nearby.

    You might have yourself bamboozled into believing you're going to save
    money on future MACs, but for every dollar you save on MACs you're likely
    to find yourself spending 2 dollars on VOIP system maintenance/support.
    Mitel Lurker, May 1, 2004
  5. Trilok

    Neil Guest

    I think Mitel has done an excellent job with the 3300. Even the new SX200
    ICP, NICE! Mitel has come a long way in the last 4 years. Looking at the
    sales of IP-PBX's (i.e. 3300 from Mitel, Succession 3.0 from Nortel, and
    whatever AVAYA offers) Mitel has done well. They have 11 percent of the
    market share, with Nortel @ 15% and good old AVAYA sitting at 9%. Looking
    at these facts, it's easy to see Mitel knows what they are doing.

    You know, dealing with Mitel technical support and engineering, it's nice to
    see they truly follow their motto... "It's about you!" Mitel really does
    take customer suggestions and implement them into their product. Today you
    will find it hard find a product that is as customizable as a Mitel.

    And "NO!" I don't work for Mitel or a Mitel dealer.

    Take care,

    Ps. Wow Cisco has 34% of the market share. . . Why? (I'm being smart!)
    Neil, May 1, 2004
  6. Trilok

    Dan Hanson Guest

    Wow... a Sales pitch on Usenet.... touting the values of 40 Year old
    TDM features. Can it do a party line too?

    Its a whole new world. Your arguments read like a Mitel sales guy
    trying to throw out any negative thing he has ever read about VOIP in
    general, and Cisco in particular. That blank stare you talked about
    will be them working to suppress laughter imagining you trying to figure
    out how to work a 40 year old solution to a 40 year old requirement,
    into a modern system.

    Perhaps the solution to these requirements, can be met in whole new ways?
    Dan Hanson, May 1, 2004
  7. Trilok

    Mitel Lurker Guest

    Just one problem with your analogy. The sales droids are trying to push
    customers' management in the direction of a total IP solution because
    that's the only arena where their product can fully compete. The fallacy
    in this is that the **END USERS** fundamentally want exactly what they
    already have. New bells and whistles will be embraced only if they come
    **IN ADDITION TO** present functionality. If it's a key system with
    stn-to-stn intercom and an overhead paging system and a multiline common
    ringer today, whatever you plan to replace it with better have that exact
    same functionality or the END USER is going to criticize it and complain.
    Most users couldn't care less if his phone is an "internet appliance" - he
    just wants it to work the way it did before you replaced it.

    This is why I say "new installations" in new facilities are prime
    candidates for VOIP. Existing sites simply needing to replace aging phone
    systems are going to be a tough client unless you can give 'em what they
    have now in addition to whatever else your new gizmo brings to the table.

    Saving money on MACS is important, but the phones have still got to be
    able to do what the ones did that you're replacing them with. Until you
    can achieve that, you will be losing sales to those vendors whose systems
    can do it.
    Mitel Lurker, May 2, 2004
  8. Trilok

    John Guest

    Also, I have run into customers who don't want to put their eggs in one
    basket. Questions I have been asked: If the network goes down does the phone
    system also? If my data needs increase does it affect my voice? Can someone
    hack my voice capabilities through my network? What if I get a virus?
    Needless to say all these customers stayed with legacy solutions also due to
    the fact they would be giving up features they are accustomed to by going

    John 807
    John, May 2, 2004
  9. Trilok

    Mitel Lurker Guest

    Not necessarily, but see below..
    Absolutely... unless you throw lots of $$$ at it and way over-build your
    data network backbone to start with. Consider that G.729 compression (no
    matter the vendor) sounds like crap so you're going to want to leave it
    off. That means that every single voip call is going to consume somewhere
    between 60 and 90 Kbps of network bandwidth... EACH! Doubt it? Fire up the
    sniffer and watch! Just with five or six calls up you've devoured close to
    a half-megabit of your data bandwidth.
    All good points, John. Of course "C" tries to pooh-pooh the security
    threat issue by reminding clients that their VOIP system hasn't been
    penetrated or compromised... yet. But anyone with any brains knows that's
    a ticking bomb. To even make such an absurd remark only serves to throw
    down the gauntlet and double-dare some hacker to try. They also
    steadfastly avoid getting into the "feature comparison" battle because
    they know it's one they cannot win without adding a literal hodge-podge of
    EXTRA COST adjunct components (ATAs, Ethernet line extenders, FXO/FXS
    modules, voice mail module, etc).

    Network survivability issues are of course another very valid point. To
    anyone contemplating VOIP I would ask them (among several other questions)
    just how reliable is their data network today and could they accept that
    (arguably diminished) level of reliability in their voice network? I think
    the answer you're going to get, at least from most business customers, is
    that when the network's down, that's when the phones have simply -GOT- to
    work. To which of course the counter-argument will be that usually the
    network itself ISN'T down, more often the interruption is a WinTel server
    or application running on a WinTel server that's actually down. - But then
    we look back to see that the "C" VOIP product is not just one but in fact
    a whole cluster of Microsoft applications running on a cluster of WinTel
    servers and so we see that what goes around, comes around. The frailty is
    not really the network as much as it is the applications running across

    Yes, you can mitigate some of this risk by running multiple Call Managers,
    or whatever, (Mitel calls it "Resiliency") but when you start down that
    road you'll need to take your checkbook with you because you will be
    multiplying the cost of the back room infrastructure. That sword cuts both

    By the same token, let's see a show of hands here. How many business
    telephone users want to have to start applying "critical patches" to their
    phone system (and rebooting it) at the same frequency they're already
    having to dance this same moronic dance with their data application
    servers? Do you see many hands raised? I don't.

    Another point, how many major corporations today use in-house-generated,
    highly customized "corporate loads" on their network servers and client
    PCs? Of these (and there are many) how many do you think would tolerate
    having someone else's "Proprietary" loads running on custom server
    hardware platforms they did not themselves "spec"? I'm afraid these
    hucksters won't find much of an audience in my shop.
    Mitel Lurker, May 2, 2004
  10. Trilok

    Nortec in MN Guest

    All the current VoIP phones are also 10/100TX sets. So what do you do when
    you want to go GB ethernet? Time to replace the phones too? The more I
    look at VoIP, the more I questions it.

    We sell both TDM & VoIP products, but I would only recommend VoIP where it
    truly has value.
    Nortec in MN, May 3, 2004
  11. Trilok

    Arcaidy Guest

    Seems like every post here with over 5 replies turns into a Cisco Bashing
    party. Is it because Cisco's product sucks?? I personally don't think so.
    Is it because Cisco's eating their lunch?? That may have something to do
    with it.

    Cisco's product is stable. Our setup is not a "Lab Queen" or whatever it
    was called. 1500 phones, multiple PRI's numerous FXS's, 2 voice mail
    systems, ACD, call accounting. We've had a few issues, but nothing that has
    affected our users. I'll agree that Cisco's product isn't cost effective for
    small installations. By small I mean 100 phones or less. I have yet to see
    phones that compare to Cisco's line up for LESS than what we pay for them.
    On security, if it's an IP device, it's open to attacks. Don't kid yourself
    thinking that you're hacked up *nix box is secure. Once enough market share
    is out there, you'll start seeing patches coming your way as well.

    People can bash Cisco all they want for using Microsoft OS and PC hardware.
    I can see some issues with it myself. But on the other hand, their building
    off of years of experience by combining and using it. A patched MS system is
    secure. Cisco now offers a their security agent free for their telephony
    devices. The hardware is tested. The HP 380's are nice servers.

    I am interested to hear about the Mitel product though. What type of costs
    are you looking at for a 100 user set up with voice mail and 2 PRI's?
    Arcaidy, May 3, 2004
  12. Trilok

    Neil Guest

    I think people bash Cisco for the most reason, because of cost. They are
    very expensive.

    Mitel makes nice stuff.

    Neil, May 3, 2004
  13. Trilok

    Mitel Lurker Guest

    Target-rich environment, perhaps. ;-)

    IMO just overpriced and over-hyped. Cisco's many successes of late in the
    voice marketplace are due more to a well oiled marketing machine than any
    demonstrable level of technical prowess in voice technology.
    Again, IMO, Cisco's data networking hardware is the undisputed gold
    standard of the industry. They're only into the phone business now because
    they bought a company that had some budding voice technology. IMO, compare
    to a legacy PBX system vendor like Mitel buying a network router & switch
    vendor and then suddenly professing a leadership level of expertise in
    that field.
    I'm really not the one to be asking about prices, because quite honestly I
    don't know exact figures. The lion's share of the cost depends on what you
    want to provide in the way of instruments and whether you want to cap the
    system at 100 users max (by purchasing a 100-user controller) or you want
    to plan for some growth and buy the 250 (or 700) user controller. You'll
    pay $30,000 for 100 model 5220IP (14-line) VOIP phones (including 100 user
    & device licenses). That's a nice phone & has a dual port switch built in.
    Device & user licenses are sold separately in single lots, so there you
    buy only what you need. If you only need 79, that's how many you buy.
    Voice mail is built in, nothing else to buy. You only buy VM user licenses
    for the number you need. I believe they're about $15 per each. All
    licenses are a one time payment, non-expiring. I believe the 100-user
    3300ICP controller with software & needed options will run roughly $5 -
    7,000 depending on final configuration and options load. The dual PRI
    module -I think- is around $1000. You might want to get a couple of the
    Universal ASU (analog service units). They're in the ballpark of $1500
    each. Each of those will provide 16 analog station ports + 4 LS/GS trunks
    + 1 paging output and 1 MOH input. Bottom line, I'm guessing something in
    the ballpark of $10,000 for the controller and software bundle + whatever
    you want to spend on phones (and whether or not you can get them at a
    discount). Example, Mitel's high end 5140 IP Appliance (comparable to
    Cisco's 7960G) lists in the neighborhood of $650 but I've heard Graybar
    has them for roughly half that amount. The 100-user controller is not
    expandable. 100 users is it's design max. Some will say that it is
    expandable, but what they're not telling you is the expansion deal
    requires jacking up the system cabinet and driving a new chassis
    underneath. You can reuse your HD and internal modules, but if you think
    there's a chance you'll ever go over 100 users it'd be cost-effective to
    just buy the 250-user controller going in. Beware of the secondary market.
    Early 3300's used a slower CPU.
    Mitel Lurker, May 4, 2004
  14. Trilok

    Mitel Lurker Guest

    Here's a LINK to the 100-user "3300" setup


    and here's the data sheet


    but the package only gives you analog central office trunks and IP network
    trunks. Dual PRI is supported, but would be extra. LIST PRICE for the 100
    user 3340 is $5500 including the software. The Universal ASU lists for
    $2500. Nobody I know pays list, it's just a starting point. If you're a
    dealer you know what the markups are. Voice mail licenses are $20 each
    (list) and IP phone licenses are $90 each (also list).
    Mitel Lurker, May 6, 2004
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