Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by opium, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Not mine. Oh yeah...I use Macs.
    Yeah, there are a lot of retarded people out there using a mediocre
    E-mail program for doing newsgrouops.
    Randall Ainsworth, Feb 12, 2006
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  2. opium

    Paul Allen Guest

    Yep. I even found it unpleasant over a 768k DSL line. I think packet
    latencies were the main problem, rather than bandwidth. Remote X apps
    are tolerable now with an 8Mb/s cable modem. If I had 200 servers to
    administer, I'd automate it with scripts using SSH from a terminal
    window on my local GUI. GUI's are nice, but they're the wrong tool
    for some tasks.
    Yep again. While pre-NT Windows was a bag on top of DOS, NT put
    all of the expressive power of the OS into the GUI from the start, at
    the expense of the command line. Unix still puts all of the power at
    the command line, with different vendors being more or less successful
    at capturing that power in a GUI interface. HP and IBM have been
    fairly successful at wrapping GUI's around all of their administrative
    interfaces. More recently, things like SuSE's YaST interface have done
    an excellent job of wrapping everything the administrator needs to
    do in a single GUI. The site-ops team at my work has been doing a
    limited roll-out of SuSE desktops over the past year or so, and I've
    been advising them to not spend scarce time learning the command-line
    administration stuff. YaST always does the right thing, and the scale
    of their deployment does not yet demand things like mass scriptability.
    It's pretty funny that, despite Microsoft's decades-long effort to
    marginalize Unix, arcane bits of the Unix command line can still be
    found on Windows. I guess good ideas persist regardless of origin.

    Paul Allen
    Paul Allen, Feb 12, 2006
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  3. Not true. The same management can arbitrarily decide the company only
    uses Linux. The fact that somebody else makes that decision is not
    And *if* (when) the mass of the business world does move to
    Linux, you *will* be rewriting it.

    Consider that in any number of places (China, Brazil, and
    others) the government is moving away from Microsoft towards
    Linux. That will have a top down effect, and when it reaches
    critical mass in only a few areas, it will go world wide within
    a very short time frame.
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 12, 2006
  4. Wow. I hope you're just being deliberately dense for effect, and that
    this isn't a reflection of your true nature. I really can't imagine
    that you're just not able to comprehend something so very simple.

    Yeah, ok. Meanwhile, I'll keep plugging along in Windows, and we'll
    keep selling to new clients on a regular basis, and make a good living
    doing so, rather than porting a large, complex application to an
    operating system where we have almost zero potential for a client base,
    and possibly going out of business in the attempt.

    And if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.
    Eric Schreiber, Feb 12, 2006
  5. I do not believe that is true on the larger scale. It *is* true
    of individuals, but not for business models.

    And it is a valid point of view for individuals to have too!
    The cost of common Microsoft and Adobe software is obscene.
    That is a significant restraint on integration of computer
    technology into business and personal work methods. The Open
    Software model will eventually force both companies to use
    different approaches.
    That particular target does not move.
    They all have one or more features that the Windows programs do not
    have. Your statement merely says that if you get used to one, it is
    will be ingrained into your work methods. But that would be equally
    true if they were mostly using Linux. And it *will* be true when that
    The GIMP lacks features useful for commercial graphic arts, but none
    of that are necessary for a photographer.

    That is not the point though. The point is that as the
    migration from closed source Operating Systems and user software
    programs towards Open Software replacements, *all* of that
    functionality will be added as needed.
    That is true. It of course is *not* a fault with Linux, but
    with those individual companies not making their products
    available. There is no question that when Linux becomes a
    larger share of the market those companies will almost overnight
    begin producing Linux software.
    What people use with Windows is what is available. They don't
    complain about what is not, because the just don't know it
    isn't. There are *many* programs on Unix systems that are far
    better than those on Windows. The entire organization of work
    flow (due to the hierarchal file system) is far better too.

    Do people complain? No. And more than that, they claim that it
    is more "natural" any time they try something different. It
    isn't natural at all, it's just *familiar*.

    But what the masses think of as "familiar" can be changed in a
    relatively short time.
    Not only will GIMP "catch up", it will move far ahead. And
    there are two or three others that may even do it first.

    And yes Adobe can (and at some point in the future will) release
    just about everything they have in a Linux version.
    That is very true. It is one of the main reasons that Windows
    keeps right on going despite all of its defects. Not just for
    solutions that are not quite available elsewhere, but for
    solutions that have been integrated into company or individual
    work processes.

    I am *not* saying that a transition to Linux could be done for
    everyone today without a very significant disruption. What I'm
    saying is that there are no technical obstacles which will not
    be overcome when the time comes. That time is not next week,
    but it *is* coming. And it *will* be a quantum step forward in
    the use of computer technology by the average person.
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 12, 2006
  6. I did not attack the messenger.
    Now you are going in circles.
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 12, 2006
  7. That is *not* a lack of action. It requires someone make
    decisions on which attachments to look at, and means that people
    cannot effectively use their computer.

    I look at *any* attachment that meets my fancy, and there is no
    stress whatever in making the decision.
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 12, 2006
  8. So anyone whose talents to not match yours and mine, are by definition
    blithering idiots eh?

    I know many physicians who cannot deal with what Windows requires.

    I know a *very* bright health care administrator with a law
    degree who has *never* liked, much less understood, computers.
    I've used her as my guage for how far computer technology has
    advanced, because the degree to which she depends on a computer
    for her work today (as compared to 25 years ago when I was using
    computers for all sorts of fun things and she wouldn't touch
    one) is the perfect indicator. You would rate her a "blithering
    idiot" right along with most of the doctors and lawyers that she

    But then you probably can't figure out legal procedures, or medical
    protocols either... should they call you a blithering idiot?
    My main defense is to run a real OS.

    That works because the problem is *not* the users!
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 12, 2006
  9. Go buy yourself a Linksys firewall/router (get a used one on
    eBay for $25) Plug it in. Go through the configuration with
    your favorite browser.

    You now have a Linux firewall that is as good as it gets, and
    you still have never so much as seen anything technical that a
    10 year old can't understand.

    There are others besides Linksys, that just happens to be the
    most widely known.
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 12, 2006
  10. So you have to stoop to a real Ad Hominem, now that you've run
    out of worthless points. After your false claims of Ad
    Hominems, I guess this is not an unlikely progression...

    That point was that the "user" in that case has no choice either
    way, whether management decides to use Macs, Windows, a VAX, or

    Your claim that the user can't choose Linux is meaningless. The
    person who does make the decisions *can* chose Linux.
    Maybe you aren't old enough to have a sense that history starts
    today, but I am.
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 12, 2006
  11. opium

    Guest Guest

    not all linksys routers use linux and the one that is most well known
    for it, the wrt-54g, no longer uses linux - it is now based on vxworks.

    so much for the migration *to* linux. :)

    and although not a true firewall, they are easy to set up and effective
    at keeping out most of the problems.
    Guest, Feb 12, 2006
  12. New word for you Floyd... "Context".
    Within those fields of expertise, yes, absolutely.
    Eric Schreiber, Feb 12, 2006
  13. That's good. If your messages here are any indicator, you appear to be
    more than stressed enough already.
    Eric Schreiber, Feb 12, 2006
  14. If you are unable to comprehend why suggesting my job gives me an
    ulterior motive for my statements amounts to ad hominem, well, I can't
    help you. It's been clear since your first word in this thread that
    you're either unable or unwilling to have a civil discussion, or that
    you even know how to debate an issue without acting like a horses ass,
    so you'll just have to deal with the fact that I'm no longer interested
    treating you more politely than you deserve.
    Eric Schreiber, Feb 12, 2006
  15. opium

    imbsysop Guest

    yeah sure .. the typical answer of the
    freaking-I-use-linux-in-my-attic-dweller and can't see any further than my
    nose length .. Dude I'm on a network that comprises 2x255x255 + 255 real
    world IP numbers .. where should I put your stupid solution Linksys router ?
    get some sense of reality will you ?
    Every time in these discussions it turns out that Linux is just the OS for
    simple minds or what ?
    imbsysop, Feb 12, 2006
  16. Wasn't it the Linux one that had the "backdoor" that was easily hacked via

    Rita Ä Berkowitz, Feb 12, 2006
  17. opium

    ASAAR Guest

    Hey guys 'n gals, Eric wants me to develop a new Back Orifice!

    ASAAR, Feb 13, 2006
  18. opium

    Paul Allen Guest

    Guys, this is really degenerating, isn't it?

    Yes, simple minds can use Linux, as can old Unix geeks like me. It's
    a tool. It's not really worth getting bent out of shape about.

    As to where you put a Linksys router, it comes with a nice little
    instruction manual like any other network appliance. The embedded
    OS inside is completely hidden. And as for it being stupid,
    it's the home firewall required by my employer (a major aerospace
    company) for remote access to the corporate network. They guys who
    made that decision are Microsoft-centric type-A hard-ass security
    freaks. They picked the Linksys router because it does what it's
    supposed to do. The fact that you could put your own version of Linux
    on it probably didn't occur to them. :)

    Paul Allen
    Paul Allen, Feb 13, 2006
  19. But there *are* thousands of them, that do run Linux, available.
    That is hardly significant. All that amounts to is Cisco bought
    Linksys, and is migrating towards their own OS.
    Not a true firewall??? You joke?
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 13, 2006
  20. Plonk
    Floyd Davidson, Feb 13, 2006
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