The ever awaited "killer app" for Linux arrives at the end of thisyear?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by thingy, Sep 12, 2006.

  1. thingy

    thingy Guest

    There has been speculation for years that what will really launch Linux
    will be the "mysterious" killer app....I would suggest this is coming at
    the end of the year...

    MS's argument on TCO, a Linux server is little cheaper than a MS one...
    even if you except this, the TCO model is about to change dramatically
    and not in MS's favour.

    why?

    1) DLL hell, despite MS trying to improve this between NT4 and win2k it
    is still an issue, win2k3 improves on that again...Longhorn will cure
    it? probably not...

    2) The ever increasing power per socket, today we have dual core Xeon
    CPUs at 3 GHZ, so a blade/U1 server has 12GHZ of grunt for
    $12k....within 6 months Quad core...24Ghz (or more) of grunt in a single
    cheap $12k server....

    3) The huge drop in Ram cost, for the above mentioned $12k we get 8 Gig
    of ram, going to 16Gig of ram costs less than 3k more....

    Here's the crunch, Xen, near native performance on scalability to 32
    CPUs INSIDE a domain at commodity pricing...ie zilch...it comes in RHAS5
    and Suse....

    VMware looks at a consolidation ratio of 6~10 servers even up to 30 but
    it costs. VMware's cost commercially it doubles the cost of a U1/Blade
    so just to break even you need a consolidation ratio of 4 ~ 6 servers
    onto one real server......Xen is going to decimate that cost....(it is
    not a 2 to 1 ratio as you need to run on a SAN which greatly adds to the
    cost). So RHat boxes will be looking at a consolidation of 10+ for
    little more than the cost of one...

    CAn MS fight that? not in 2007, probably not eve in 2008 with
    Longhorn....yes Virtual server will do 8 CPUs....but who is going to be
    deploying it before service pack 1? so 2008....

    Meanwhile VMware will be the platform for MS....no commodity
    pricing.....unless vmware slashes its costs 10 fold, Xen is going to eat
    it......

    How is MS fighting back? for every 1 real win2k3 instance we get 3
    virtual ones....so large price slashing.....

    By by profit margin.....and / or by by TCO argument. I think I am really
    going to enjoy watching 2007 unfold....the customer is going to
    win...that cannot be bad.....

    ;]

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 12, 2006
    #1
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  2. thingy

    Shane Guest

    Xen has Microsoft backing
    Xen is seen by Microsoft as a weapon against VMWare
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    Microsoft today lobbed three massive bombs into the server virtualization
    market. First off, it will now support - wait for it - Linux, when the OS
    is running on top of its Virtual Server product. Secondly, Microsoft has
    made Virtual Server free. And, in a move few thought possible, Microsoft
    has teamed with the developers of the open source Xen product to gang up on
    server slicing leader VMware.

    --
    Fry: Alright, alright. What happened to me, Philip J. Fry, on the night of
    December 31st, 1999?
    Master Brain: Clarification request. Are you the Philip J. Fry from Earth or
    the Philip J. Fry from Hovering Squid World 97a?
    Brain: Earth, you fat idiot, hurry up.

    blog: http://shanes.dyndns.org
     
    Shane, Sep 12, 2006
    #2
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  3. thingy

    Daniel Guest

    thingy wrote:
    <snip>

    Shared library compatibility issues are not restricted to Windows.
    Although package dependencies are handled better (well, depending on
    your perspective - not sure I'd want to download the world just to
    install a small distribution).
     
    Daniel, Sep 12, 2006
    #3
  4. thingy

    Daniel Guest

    Whoops I meant to say package dependencies are handled better on Linux...
     
    Daniel, Sep 12, 2006
    #4
  5. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Package dependancy issues are pretty much unknown on Linux, in fact I
    have never encountered one, or heard of one....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 12, 2006
    #5
  6. thingy

    thingy Guest

    The present Virtual server is not fit for production use....not til
    Longhorn and not til SP1...have you actually tried using it? I have....

    I cannot see to many people, ie MS shops running a MS OS on Xen
    myself.....it will be a non-event IMHO. In any event it will not be at
    commodity pricing....

    Xen inside Redhat etc will be mainstream....I do not see anything else
    coming close....
     
    thingy, Sep 12, 2006
    #6
  7. thingy

    Daniel Guest

    Hmmm... like I said I don't like being forced to download the world just
    because a binary in one distribution decides it's a good idea to use a
    new or revised API because "that's the correct way to do it".
    Refactoring code for the sake of elegance without any real-world benefit
    may be good for other developers (and even that's debatable), but, for
    those of us who have to go through this cycle of maintaining the
    dependency chain (if you're on dial-up - forget it) I don't think it's
    necessarily an ideal solution.

    Google for broken package dependencies and you'll find that the "fix" is
    to "simply" update your packages.

    Sure, there may be a lot of Windows updates to download, but, I'm not
    sure that compares to the bandwidth required to continually keep ones
    package dependencies clean.
     
    Daniel, Sep 13, 2006
    #7
  8. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Which distro?
    Linux's "DLLs" / libraries have always been independent of applications
    so there is no DLL hell...where one application need s or over rights
    anothers. MS often updates its DLLs so the concept of Linux also doing
    so has no issues IMHO.

    Either way there is no comparison between this issue from a Linux
    perspective and a Windows one.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 13, 2006
    #8
  9. thingy

    thingy Guest

    "Virtualisation is the Next Big Thing in computing, and the lesson of
    Vista is that Microsoft
    will have to embrace it to survive in the operating system market. The
    trouble (for Microsoft)
    is that the leader in the technology is Xensource, a spin-out from
    Cambridge University's Computer Laboratory.
    And here's where the delicious ironies begin. For not only is the lab
    housed in the William Gates Building
    (in recognition of a donation by the Microsoft boss), but Xen's core
    technology is - wait for it! - open source,
    which in Redmond is still viewed as the spawn of the communist devil. In
    due course,
    an accommodation will be reached - and Xensource will go through the
    roof. If you were thinking of investing,
    however, I'm afraid you've missed the boat. John Doerr,
    the world's greatest venture capitalist (Sun Microsystems, Compaq,
    Lotus, Intuit, Genentech, Millennium,
    netscape, Amazon and Google, inter alia), got there before you. In this
    business,
    you have to get up early if you want to get into bed.

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1868642,00.html


    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 13, 2006
    #9
  10. thingy

    Daniel Guest

    All of them - well, the ones that use a package management system anyhow.

    "DLLs" are shared libraries, and is a naming convention that Microsoft
    for their shared libraries (as well as being an actual CS term that is
    used in the Unix world). I am spelling out my definition a DLL.

    Lot's of Linux apps ship shared libraries. Unless you have another
    definition of what a shared library is?

    I disagree. The issue is a very old one - Dynamic vs Static linkage -
    and applies to all modern heavyweight OS'es.
     
    Daniel, Sep 13, 2006
    #10
  11. thingy

    BrianM Guest


    "Microsoft and XenSource have signed a collaborative agreement to develop
    interoperable virtualization solutions. The two companies will cooperate on
    the development of technology to provide interoperability between
    Xen-enabled Linux guest operating systems and the new Microsoft
    hypervisor-based Windows Server virtualization."

    http://www.xensource.com/partners/microsoft_resources.html
     
    BrianM, Sep 13, 2006
    #11
  12. thingy

    thingy Guest

    This does not alter my comments....IMHO, all it means is they can
    interact together...say Longhorn's virtual centre manager can mange xen
    based hosts....no biggee....The interesting thing will be if Longhorn
    Virtualisation can catch up or leap frog Vmware and Xen in both raw
    performance, and manageability, let along cost.....that is a big
    ask....take any two as they say....

    Personally I think Xen will boost Linux adoption significantly, the TCO
    argument MS uses will look even sadder than it does now.......

    The Longhorn management functions will be version 1.0, surely you can
    recall just how good MS version 1.0 of anything has been? like suck the
    kumera......

    Vmware will be onto version 3...

    Xen may or may not be at the back of the pack in the snazzy gui stakes,
    but if it is rock solid, fast and cheap it will take the lead.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 13, 2006
    #12
  13. thingy

    thingy Guest


    ho hum my earlier post never made it....gotta love clearnet's news
    server.....

    I have had no issues with "DLL hell" on Linux. We run 30+ linux servers,
    an oracle cluster........RH's "64bit" library cock up aside.....There is
    no way you can put Linux in the same boat as MS, no way....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 13, 2006
    #13
  14. thingy

    BrianM Guest

    Agreed - I'm looking forward to it.
     
    BrianM, Sep 13, 2006
    #14
  15. thingy

    MaHogany Guest

    Yes - agreed.


    Ma Hogany
     
    MaHogany, Sep 13, 2006
    #15
  16. What is RH's "64 bit" library cock up?
    (I'm using 64 bit Fedora 5 so I need to know)

    Robert
     
    Robert Davies, Sep 13, 2006
    #16
  17. thingy

    Alan Guest

    Hi All,

    On a (vaguely) related note, has anyone tried the ESX offering from
    VMWare?

    I have seen references but nothing much about it being used in real
    life (production environment especially).

    Thanks,

    Alan.

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    Alan, Sep 13, 2006
    #17
  18. thingy

    thingy Guest

    As long as you use RH made 64bit rpms or can get redhat type 64bit rpms
    eg fedora ones you will probably have no issues.

    Where issues do arise is RedHat decided to make the libraries 64bit as
    well and provide no 32 bit libraries, the path to them is also different
    and thier names. This means many rpms from commercial vendors and say
    rpmfind.net will not work on RHAS 64bit installations.

    This problem does not arise on Suse or Debian.......

    There is also an issue of the 64bit stuff being unstable with some
    applications, the vendors now say 32 bit only. So if you have no
    requirement for anything commercial and non-redhat its not an issue go
    for 64bit. If you have commercial apps and non-redhat needs go with 32
    bit or use another Linux distro. Or roll your own rpms.....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 13, 2006
    #18
  19. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Yes, we are about to deploy into production.

    We have ESX 3 and virtual centre in testing and are deploying production
    with 4~6 weeks.

    Initially a handful of servers until we are familiar with its wrinkles,
    then work forward from there.

    At present there is lots of hype which as usual hide the limitations and
    practicalities of going for any new technology. Vmware looks good though
    where the consolidations is high eg to make it pay you need to
    consolidate at 4:1 or 6:1 otherwise its cost is hard to justify, the
    licences are pricey, 2:1 just wont work.

    Limitations would appear to be around overheads generated by high disk
    i/o and high networking i/o...so databases, squid proxies and file
    clusters are all poor looking candidates due to the i/o demand....Low
    demand units like Web servers, small applications on the other hand
    where you can get 10:1 consolidation look to be a no brainer...we think
    we can save 30% if not more easily and offer improved quality of
    service.....

    Lots of the outsourcers use it, eg Fugitsu, clients BCL, extensively
    apparantly.......Gen-i, Datacom will sell and can support it (so they say).

    2 Years from now I expect us to be Xen'ing everything as it is dirt
    cheap. So the vmware stuff will contain MS based applications while
    Linux virtual servers move off to Xen....later as Longhorn virtual
    server matures...this I expect to be the way forward ie 5~10
    years....but time will tell.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Sep 14, 2006
    #19
  20. thingy

    Alan Guest

    Can you say what the licensing cost / structure is for ESX?

    Thanks,

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address.

    The following is a (probably!) totally unique
    and meaningless string of characters that you
    can use to find posts by me in a search engine:

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    Alan, Sep 14, 2006
    #20
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