The end is near for 35mm? Or is it? When is the end?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by j, Sep 30, 2006.

  1. j

    Scott W Guest

    Well I think David would agree that people are not taking up MF in any
    great number
    but was rather giving the reason he uses MF.

    Scott W, Oct 3, 2006
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  2. j

    lubecki Guest

    Yes, they're out of touch. The people teaching photography are all
    older, they're used to film, that's what they know, and they have very
    little reason to change. It will be a while before the old guard dies
    out and universities hire teachers who know anything about digital
    People don't upgrade their film cameras nearly as frequently as they do
    digital cameras simply because film cameras don't get better. With
    digital cameras there is something new and better coming out every
    year, so it makes sense to upgrade. You better believe that if the
    development curve were as steep in film cameras, people would upgrade
    those, too. Besides, nobody forces you to upgrade anyway. If you want
    to hold on to your digital camera for 30 years, go for it. Personally,
    I don't see the advantage of that.

    lubecki, Oct 3, 2006
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  3. And I think it's largely the right one: digital is adequate to purpose for
    most people. As I've written before, in the things I do here other than
    photography (music, Go, bowling), I see people taking pictures, and they're
    simply getting better prints from P&S digital than they were from film. Like
    CDs vs. vinyl, digital really is providing better quality for real people
    (since CDs are indestructible and unlike vinyl, sound decent 30 playings
    later (on real record players, not high-end things)).

    Of course, the cell phone camera is killing P&S digital faster than P&S
    digital is killing film, and image quality is down well below what it used
    to be with film.
    The problem now is that MF is caught in a shrinking niche; digital does have
    problems with Moiré and other aliasing artifacts, but when those don't bite
    you, 12.7 MP makes 645 obsolete, and 6x7 doesn't give you as much more than
    12.7 or 16MP to make it worth the effort.

    Well I think David would agree that people are not taking up MF in any
    great number but was rather giving the reason he uses MF.

    People never took up MF in great number, 35mm was always way more popular.
    There has, however, been a steady stream of new MF user questions on over the years. Of course, 10 new users a year doesn't support a
    market segment.

    I took up MF when US$3000 got you 3MP, so it made more sense then.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
    David J. Littleboy, Oct 4, 2006
  4. Do you know people who teach in university photorgaphy programs in the UK,
    do you know their work? When I was an undergrad, Minor White taught
    photography at my school, and he's always been one of my favorite
    photographers (I was a twitty comp sci undergrad and knew enough not to
    bother the guy; it would have been nice if I had had my act together enough
    to get something out of his courses, but I knew better). Many of the leading
    art photographers teach at universities in the US.

    Again, this is a field where digital is only beginning to have an impact.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
    David J. Littleboy, Oct 4, 2006
  5. Yes, have a look at this!

    With prices falling as fast as this, how can 35mm survive?

    Dennis Pogson, Oct 4, 2006
  6. Yes, have a look at this!

    With prices falling as fast as this, how can 35mm survive?

    If the link doesn't work, allow me to tell you the price is a mere $2000!
    What a bargain lens for our historians!

    Dennis Pogson, Oct 4, 2006
  7. j

    bugbear Guest

    It ain't sold yet - that's a requested price.

    Anyhoo - it's clearly a lens for this:

    35mm is dead!

    bugbear, Oct 4, 2006
  8. John McWilliams, Oct 4, 2006
  9. j

    Scott W Guest

    And for that matter who says sliderules are dead?

    If you can sell slideruldes for $25 that tells me there is a heathy
    market for them. Clearly
    many people are unhappy with calculators and going back to sliderules.

    Scott W, Oct 4, 2006
  10. j

    Paul J Gans Guest

    One thing that *is* happening in the field is the digital
    photography of things like medieval manuscripts and ancient
    and medieval art.

    It is being done in as high a resolution as feasible (I don't
    have the details) and with color control. The hope is not
    just preservation in case of damage, but to make copies
    available to folks all over the world where hitherto one had
    to travel to where the object was.

    Film doesn't work nearly so well as it deteriorates and is
    not easy to copy cheaply with great fidelity.

    --- Paul J. Gans
    Paul J Gans, Oct 4, 2006
  11. j

    Bill Funk Guest

    What I was questioning was your statement that MF would have a
    "resurgence" now that digital i smaking 35mm film obsolete. You said
    greed was the reason.
    Now, you are saying that this resurgence isn't happening,and probably
    won't, which is fine. I have absolutely no problem with people using
    MF at all. Why should I?

    I am, though, concerned that many (certainly not just you) are making
    prognistications that are just not in concert with reality.
    Please don't take this personally.
    Bill Funk, Oct 4, 2006
  12. j

    Bill Funk Guest

    Bill Funk, Oct 4, 2006
  13. j

    Scott W Guest

    No, say it is not so, I am sure they are buying them to use.

    In fact I am keeping my 35mm film gear for the same reason that I have
    my sliderule, fun to
    go back an look at how we did things in the old days. I can't imagine
    ever putting film back
    into the camera but I can't see getting rid of it either.

    I know a lot of people like me, they still have their film SLR but have
    not put film in for a number of

    Scott W, Oct 4, 2006
  14. j

    Bill Funk Guest

    Yeah, that's me, too.
    My FT-1 Motor sits in its case in my closet.

    But I threw out my slide rule years ago. Doesn't add or subtract, and
    you have to guess where the decimal goes. They were only good for
    estimates, and even then you had to have some idea of what the answer
    should be to understand what the stupid thing was trying to tell you.
    I hate math!
    Bill Funk, Oct 4, 2006
  15. j

    Scott W Guest

    I still have my sliderule, for me the sliderule magical in that it
    allowed me to do good science and engineering calculations in a
    fraction the time it would take without it. Getting to within 1% was
    easy with a sliderule and for much of engineering this is good enough.

    It is very much to me as my film camera was, I was delighted to have
    it but glad I don't have to use it anymore.

    Scott W, Oct 4, 2006
  16. j

    ASAAR Guest

    Slide rule accuracy may be less than what you can get from
    inexpensive calculators, but when they were widely used, electronic
    calculators weren't available, computers were few and far between
    and were less portable than an elephant. Today as in the past,
    slide rule accuracy is good enough to handle 99.26347% of most
    people's calculations. And if the person seeking the answer to a
    problem doesn't have at least a rough idea of what the answer should
    be, they're too stupid to be trusted using an electronic calculator
    having 16 digits of precision. The results could be off by an order
    of magnitude or more and they wouldn't have a clue. If slide rules
    were as inadequate as you make them out to have been, then just as
    pens and pencils are often sold in sets, slide rules might have been
    popularly sold in sets along with Kurta calculators.

    Well I swan. Who'da thunk it? Did your grandpappy wear out his
    lungs shouting "Get a horse"? :)
    ASAAR, Oct 4, 2006
  17. j

    Scott W Guest

    Where slide rules really fell short was complex numbers. Whereas the
    early calculators did not do complex math directly they did have polar
    <--> rectangular conversions and this made it pretty easy to do. Doing
    circuit analysis with a slide rule was a pain in the ass.

    Scott W, Oct 4, 2006
  18. j

    ASAAR Guest

    I don't recall much circuit analysis being done back then with
    slide rules, but with analog computers. Perhaps I'm only speaking
    for myself, but they were even better than digital computers for
    giving a good appreciation for the fundamental principles governing
    electronic circuits, but also made obvious that their mathematical
    and physical laws were the same as those behind all of the other,
    non-electronic fields (pi!)

    As for slide rules being a pain in the ass, it was different for
    bamboo and K&E slide rules, but for metal Pickett slide rules, the
    lubricant of choice was plain old petroleum jelly, aka Vaseline. :)
    ASAAR, Oct 4, 2006
  19. j

    Scott W Guest

    I started off doing ciruit analysis with a slide rule, I was very happy
    when I got my HP65.
    I used a circular side rule, the debate between circular and straight
    was about as bad as Canon vs. Nikon is now. I don't remember needed
    to lubricate it and it got a lot of use.

    Scott W, Oct 4, 2006
  20. j

    ASAAR Guest

    I've still got three Picketts. A pocket model, one of the wider
    full sized models and a circular model. Where they all are now I
    can't say, but I do stumble across them every couple of years. :)
    I suppose you could get by without lubricating them, but it helped
    if you kept them adjusted tight enough so that the slide didn't
    slide when you didn't want it to, yet slid freely and easily enough
    when you did, to make precise, tiny adjustments. Whether it made a
    difference or not, I'd always clean and lubricate them when I could
    detect a change from smooth sliding to a slightly gritty feel. I
    never ran into the heated slide rule debates that you did, but I
    suspect that what was behind them had little to do with inherent
    superiority of any types of either slide rules or cameras, and a lot
    more to do with personality types. I could tell you why my TI
    calculator was better than your HP65, but to do that I'd have to
    resort to telling some politically incorrect Polish jokes.

    ASAAR, Oct 4, 2006
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