Sony Cybershot DSC-W1... Bad Camera...Bad Customer Service by Sony... Read on...

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by unavailable, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. unavailable

    Ron Hunter Guest

    WRONG!
    Lithium batteries are capable of delivering very high currents. If a
    flashlight is designed for carbon/zinc or alkaline batteries, the
    designers are probably counting on the internal resistance of the
    batteries to limit the current through the bulb. Lithiums could easily
    burn out the bulb. But, it's your flashlight, try it out. Then tell us
    how it affects bulb life.
     
    Ron Hunter, Jun 25, 2004
    #21
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  2. unavailable

    Anoni Moose Guest

    Most of the time probably true, even for camera instructions that
    say otherwise.

    But it's not absolutely true. Batteries have other important specs
    other than just voltage and size. Source-resistance also is an important
    one. Another important feature has to do with cameras that charge batteries
    "in camera" (as my wife's new digital camera does). Bad things can happen
    if the wrong kind of battery is in there. The chemistry of some batteries
    may be that defective ones (or overcharged ones) will outgas some small
    amount of something that could affect some cameras more than others.

    And even then, it may just be statistical. Meaning the "problem" whatever
    is is, may affect only 1% of users, 99% are fine. That'd only be a problem
    for the mfgr who's reputation for 'bad cameras' will grow (and for the 1%
    who had the problem). But that would make it worthwhile saying not to use that
    kind of battery.

    Batteries also can have different characteristics over the maximum
    spec'd temperature range. Some batteries have limited allowable
    temperature ranges.

    IOW, it can be more than just voltage rating.

    Mike
     
    Anoni Moose, Jun 25, 2004
    #22
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  3. I am sorry to disagree with you, but the internal resistance of the bulb is
    what limits the current, (Ohm's law) and not the capability of the battery.
    A 12 volt light bulb will operate the same with a lead-acid truck battery
    that is capable of delivering 200 amperes, and not burn out one second
    sooner that it would if operating on eight 1-1/2 volt AA flashlight
    batteries. Now, having said that, it is certainly true that there are types
    of batteries that differ in voltage output by slight amounts. Lithiums, I
    believe, put out 1.55 volts per cell, and not 1.5 as do alkalines. Also, the
    Ni-mhd type might put out only 1.2 volts per cell, so a bulb that is
    nominally rated for 1.5 volts would last longer (because it burns cooler) on
    a set of Ni-mhd batteries than it would on the same set of lithiums. But it
    isn't the fault of the battery type, but rather the total voltage that is
    impressed on the bulb filament. 12 volt lead acid batteries, for example,
    can be charged up to around 14 volts, so one should be careful when one uses
    them in devices that are meant for a nominal 12 volts, not because of their
    internal resistance, but simply because 14 volts might smoke the
    device.........
     
    William Graham, Jun 25, 2004
    #23
  4. unavailable

    Fishface Guest

    http://flashlightreviews.home.att.net/articles/batteries_explained.htm

    I thought it sounded like a good idea to put my NiMH batteries through
    a deep refresh cycle in my mini Maglite. I toasted the bulb in short
    order. The new package says not to use them with rechargable
    batteries. This page says to only use alkaline batteries.
    www.maglite.com/custserv.asp?p=showDoc&doc=4H_NAF_AAMM_Eng.gif

    Maybe someone could invent a little resistor cap for lithium batteries,
    but, of course, some power would be lost to heat.

    I read an article in a magazine called Real Simple (www.realsimple.com)
    that tested batteries in a Sony 1.3 MP digital camera. The article is from
    June/July 2002, so battery technology and prices may differ. Here is the
    table from the article, space formatted in OE using the default font. They
    didn't test rechargeables.

    Battery Price/Battery #Shots Price/Shot

    Radio Shack
    Enercell alkaline $1.50 94 1.6¢

    Duracell
    Cu-top alkaline $1.75 108 1.6¢

    Rite-Aid alkaline $1.25 76 1.6¢

    Duracell Ultra $2.00 121 1.7¢

    Energizer e2
    Titanium $1.50 82 1.8¢

    Energizer e2
    Lithium $5.00 220 2.3¢
     
    Fishface, Jun 26, 2004
    #24
  5. unavailable

    Alan Browne Guest

    A camera may also have inductive circuits such that regardless of
    the battery voltage will draw more current than expected if the
    battery is capable of delivering it. If the device was designed
    to oversome limitations in alkaline batteries (internal
    resistance), then with more current-capable batteries high
    current might ensue ... and even if briefly, long enough to cause
    damage.

    If Minolta tell me don't use lithium in a device, I will heed
    their advice. It's too expensive not to.
     
    Alan Browne, Jun 26, 2004
    #25
  6. That price range is off!

    Like I previously stated, I get AA Lithiums (Energizer e2) at Sears for ~$10.00 ($9.99) for
    4 x AA batteries that's $2.50/battery not $5.00/battery.

    Dave
    |
    | Energizer e2
    | Lithium $5.00 220
    2.3¢

    | http://flashlightreviews.home.att.net/articles/batteries_explained.htm
    |
    | I thought it sounded like a good idea to put my NiMH batteries through
    | a deep refresh cycle in my mini Maglite. I toasted the bulb in short
    | order. The new package says not to use them with rechargable
    | batteries. This page says to only use alkaline batteries.
    | www.maglite.com/custserv.asp?p=showDoc&doc=4H_NAF_AAMM_Eng.gif
    |
    | Maybe someone could invent a little resistor cap for lithium batteries,
    | but, of course, some power would be lost to heat.
    |
    | I read an article in a magazine called Real Simple (www.realsimple.com)
    | that tested batteries in a Sony 1.3 MP digital camera. The article is from
    | June/July 2002, so battery technology and prices may differ. Here is the
    | table from the article, space formatted in OE using the default font. They
    | didn't test rechargeables.
    |
    | Battery Price/Battery #Shots Price/Shot
    |
    | Radio Shack
    | Enercell alkaline $1.50 94 1.6¢
    |
    | Duracell
    | Cu-top alkaline $1.75 108 1.6¢
    |
    | Rite-Aid alkaline $1.25 76 1.6¢
    |
    | Duracell Ultra $2.00 121 1.7¢
    |
    | Energizer e2
    | Titanium $1.50 82
    1.8¢
    |
    | Energizer e2
    | Lithium $5.00 220
    2.3¢
    |
    |
    |
     
    David H. Lipman, Jun 26, 2004
    #26
  7. unavailable

    Fishface Guest

    Yes, I suspected as much. So ignore that!

    Costco has the Energizer e2 Lithium 4-pak for $6.99 on
    the website, I'm not sure about the stores, though. Which
    brand are you using?
     
    Fishface, Jun 26, 2004
    #27
  8. Which brand ?
    Energizer e2 Lithium 4-pak.

    Dave



    | David H. Lipman wrote:
    | > That price range is off!
    |
    | Yes, I suspected as much. So ignore that!
    |
    | Costco has the Energizer e2 Lithium 4-pak for $6.99 on
    | the website, I'm not sure about the stores, though. Which
    | brand are you using?
    |
    |
     
    David H. Lipman, Jun 26, 2004
    #28
  9. The only thing internal battery resistance would affect is the short circuit
    current. If the battery load is reasonable, (so the batteries would last
    more than a few minutes) then this internal resistance can have no
    deleterious effect on the device. I suggest that the reason the manufacturer
    doesn't want you to use lithium batteries is because they put out a little
    more voltage per cell than alkalines, so a set of them might over voltage
    the device. If you believe the specs on the device are that marginal, then
    by all means, use the batteries the manufacturer recommends. As for me, the
    determining factor is the batteries tendency to leak in time and destroy the
    battery compartment, especially in devices such as flash units that I may
    not use for a long time. This has happened to me often enough so that I
    usually just remove the batteries altogether after I use the device. If I do
    this with some cameras, however, the camera looses its internal memory, and
    forgets what frame it's on, and other important information, so I keep it
    energized with a fresh set of batteries every few months. (I usually am
    using it every day or so, anyway)
     
    William Graham, Jun 27, 2004
    #29



  10. BOLLOCK BOLLOCKS go get a Brain transplant as you do need one..


    All batteries have internal resistance and goes up as the battery ages..
     
    Robert Mathews, Jun 28, 2004
    #30
  11. unavailable

    Bob Guest

    No, he is right and you are mistaken.

    Sorry.

    Bob
     
    Bob, Jun 28, 2004
    #31
  12. This is true, but the internal resistance of the battery is only a very
    small percentage of the resistance of the load, with the exception of a car
    battery during the "start" operation, where the battery is very heavily
    loaded. This is why a car battery's output drops to nearly 8 volts while the
    starter is turning over the engine. Normally, the load puts so little load
    on the battery that the voltage difference is unmeasureable.
    There is one thing that I forgot to mention, however. Sometimes the
    manufacturer specifies a certain type battery because of charging
    considerations. Naturally, if the batteries can be charged while inside the
    camera or other device, and the manufacturer supplies the charger, then only
    the specific battery that the manufacturer recommends should be used. -
    Worst case sceneareo would be if one tried to use non-rechargeable batteries
    such as alkelines, and the charger would overheat and explode them while
    they wre inside the device, damaging that device. - In this case, I agree
    completely. - Only use the manufacturers recommended battery.
    that take our breath away. (George Carlin)
     
    William Graham, Jun 28, 2004
    #32
  13. The *BEST* statement and conforms to Kirchoff's Laws.

    Dave




    |
    | internal resistance and goes up as the battery ages..
    | >
    | This is true, but the internal resistance of the battery is only a very
    | small percentage of the resistance of the load, with the exception of a car
    | battery during the "start" operation, where the battery is very heavily
    | loaded. This is why a car battery's output drops to nearly 8 volts while the
    | starter is turning over the engine. Normally, the load puts so little load
    | on the battery that the voltage difference is unmeasureable.
    | There is one thing that I forgot to mention, however. Sometimes the
    | manufacturer specifies a certain type battery because of charging
    | considerations. Naturally, if the batteries can be charged while inside the
    | camera or other device, and the manufacturer supplies the charger, then only
    | the specific battery that the manufacturer recommends should be used. -
    | Worst case sceneareo would be if one tried to use non-rechargeable batteries
    | such as alkelines, and the charger would overheat and explode them while
    | they wre inside the device, damaging that device. - In this case, I agree
    | completely. - Only use the manufacturers recommended battery.
    |
    | > >A 12 volt light bulb will operate the same with a lead-acid truck battery
    | > >that is capable of delivering 200 amperes, and not burn out one second
    | > >sooner that it would if operating on eight 1-1/2 volt AA flashlight
    | > >batteries. Now, having said that, it is certainly true that there are
    | types
    | > >of batteries that differ in voltage output by slight amounts. Lithiums, I
    | > >believe, put out 1.55 volts per cell, and not 1.5 as do alkalines. Also,
    | the
    | > >Ni-mhd type might put out only 1.2 volts per cell, so a bulb that is
    | > >nominally rated for 1.5 volts would last longer (because it burns cooler)
    | on
    | > >a set of Ni-mhd batteries than it would on the same set of lithiums. But
    | it
    | > >isn't the fault of the battery type, but rather the total voltage that is
    | > >impressed on the bulb filament. 12 volt lead acid batteries, for example,
    | > >can be charged up to around 14 volts, so one should be careful when one
    | uses
    | > >them in devices that are meant for a nominal 12 volts, not because of
    | their
    | > >internal resistance, but simply because 14 volts might smoke the
    | > >device.........
    | > >
    | >
    | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    | --------------------------
    | > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
    | that take our breath away. (George Carlin)
    |
    |
     
    David H. Lipman, Jun 28, 2004
    #33
  14. unavailable

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    It is probably (knowing Sony's battery life history) too high a current draw
    on a Lithium battery and they tend to explode when overloaded.
     
    Gymmy Bob, Jun 28, 2004
    #34
  15. unavailable

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    "Kirchoff" has nothing to do with this one except the blatantly obvious.
    Ohm's law is the one you want there son.
     
    Gymmy Bob, Jun 28, 2004
    #35
  16. Nope....

    This is NOT an electronics News Group so I will not go into an explanation why Ohm's Law is
    insufficient and Kirchoff's Law is apropos.

    I will say model the circuit. Where...
    - R(load) is less than R(internal resistance of battery)
    - R(load) equals R(internal resistance of battery)
    - R(load) is greater than R(internal resistance of battery)

    Dave



    | "Kirchoff" has nothing to do with this one except the blatantly obvious.
    | Ohm's law is the one you want there son.
    |
    | | > The *BEST* statement and conforms to Kirchoff's Laws.
    | >
    | > Dave
    | >
    | >
    | >
    | >
    | | > |
    | have
    | > | internal resistance and goes up as the battery ages..
    | > | >
    | > | This is true, but the internal resistance of the battery is only a very
    | > | small percentage of the resistance of the load, with the exception of a
    | car
    | > | battery during the "start" operation, where the battery is very heavily
    | > | loaded. This is why a car battery's output drops to nearly 8 volts while
    | the
    | > | starter is turning over the engine. Normally, the load puts so little
    | load
    | > | on the battery that the voltage difference is unmeasureable.
    | > | There is one thing that I forgot to mention, however. Sometimes the
    | > | manufacturer specifies a certain type battery because of charging
    | > | considerations. Naturally, if the batteries can be charged while inside
    | the
    | > | camera or other device, and the manufacturer supplies the charger, then
    | only
    | > | the specific battery that the manufacturer recommends should be used. -
    | > | Worst case sceneareo would be if one tried to use non-rechargeable
    | batteries
    | > | such as alkelines, and the charger would overheat and explode them while
    | > | they wre inside the device, damaging that device. - In this case, I
    | agree
    | > | completely. - Only use the manufacturers recommended battery.
    | > |
    | > | > >A 12 volt light bulb will operate the same with a lead-acid truck
    | battery
    | > | > >that is capable of delivering 200 amperes, and not burn out one
    | second
    | > | > >sooner that it would if operating on eight 1-1/2 volt AA flashlight
    | > | > >batteries. Now, having said that, it is certainly true that there are
    | > | types
    | > | > >of batteries that differ in voltage output by slight amounts.
    | Lithiums, I
    | > | > >believe, put out 1.55 volts per cell, and not 1.5 as do alkalines.
    | Also,
    | > | the
    | > | > >Ni-mhd type might put out only 1.2 volts per cell, so a bulb that is
    | > | > >nominally rated for 1.5 volts would last longer (because it burns
    | cooler)
    | > | on
    | > | > >a set of Ni-mhd batteries than it would on the same set of lithiums.
    | But
    | > | it
    | > | > >isn't the fault of the battery type, but rather the total voltage
    | that is
    | > | > >impressed on the bulb filament. 12 volt lead acid batteries, for
    | example,
    | > | > >can be charged up to around 14 volts, so one should be careful when
    | one
    | > | uses
    | > | > >them in devices that are meant for a nominal 12 volts, not because of
    | > | their
    | > | > >internal resistance, but simply because 14 volts might smoke the
    | > | > >device.........
    | > | > >
    | > | >
    | > |
    | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    | > | --------------------------
    | > | > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the
    | moments
    | > | that take our breath away. (George Carlin)
    | > |
    | > |
    | >
    | >
    |
    |
     
    David H. Lipman, Jun 28, 2004
    #36
  17. unavailable

    dj_nme Guest

    Strangely, both of them were partly correct.
    The current draw is related to the resistance of the bulb filament, also
    the available current and voltage is related to the internal resistance
    of the battery.
    As a battery is used up, the internal resistance goes up and the
    available current goes down. As this happens, the filament is still
    drawing the same power from the battery and because the battery voltage
    can't go up, the bulb goes dim.
     
    dj_nme, Jun 29, 2004
    #37
  18. unavailable

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    Yeah OK, I will state the blatantly obvious. The sum of the currents
    entering the point is equal to the sum of the currents leaving the point.

    So watt?

    Who cares if the resistance of the battery is greater or lesser than the
    R(load)? The current is inversely proportional to the total circuit
    resistance. This includes the battery and the load.
    Ohm's law
    part 1
     
    Gymmy Bob, Jun 29, 2004
    #38
  19. You don't see the trees through the forest!

    Like I said model it.

    Dave




    | Yeah OK, I will state the blatantly obvious. The sum of the currents
    | entering the point is equal to the sum of the currents leaving the point.
    |
    | So watt?
    |
    | Who cares if the resistance of the battery is greater or lesser than the
    | R(load)? The current is inversely proportional to the total circuit
    | resistance. This includes the battery and the load.
    | Ohm's law
    | part 1
    |
    |
    | | > Nope....
    | >
    | > This is NOT an electronics News Group so I will not go into an explanation
    | why Ohm's Law is
    | > insufficient and Kirchoff's Law is apropos.
    | >
    | > I will say model the circuit. Where...
    | > - R(load) is less than R(internal resistance of battery)
    | > - R(load) equals R(internal resistance of battery)
    | > - R(load) is greater than R(internal resistance of battery)
    | >
    | > Dave
    | >
    | >
    | >
    | | > | "Kirchoff" has nothing to do with this one except the blatantly obvious.
    | > | Ohm's law is the one you want there son.
    | > |
    | > | | > | > The *BEST* statement and conforms to Kirchoff's Laws.
    | > | >
    | > | > Dave
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > | | > | > |
    | batteries
    | > | have
    | > | > | internal resistance and goes up as the battery ages..
    | > | > | >
    | > | > | This is true, but the internal resistance of the battery is only a
    | very
    | > | > | small percentage of the resistance of the load, with the exception
    | of a
    | > | car
    | > | > | battery during the "start" operation, where the battery is very
    | heavily
    | > | > | loaded. This is why a car battery's output drops to nearly 8 volts
    | while
    | > | the
    | > | > | starter is turning over the engine. Normally, the load puts so
    | little
    | > | load
    | > | > | on the battery that the voltage difference is unmeasureable.
    | > | > | There is one thing that I forgot to mention, however. Sometimes
    | the
    | > | > | manufacturer specifies a certain type battery because of charging
    | > | > | considerations. Naturally, if the batteries can be charged while
    | inside
    | > | the
    | > | > | camera or other device, and the manufacturer supplies the charger,
    | then
    | > | only
    | > | > | the specific battery that the manufacturer recommends should be
    | used. -
    | > | > | Worst case sceneareo would be if one tried to use non-rechargeable
    | > | batteries
    | > | > | such as alkelines, and the charger would overheat and explode them
    | while
    | > | > | they wre inside the device, damaging that device. - In this case, I
    | > | agree
    | > | > | completely. - Only use the manufacturers recommended battery.
    | > | > |
    | > | > | > >A 12 volt light bulb will operate the same with a lead-acid truck
    | > | battery
    | > | > | > >that is capable of delivering 200 amperes, and not burn out one
    | > | second
    | > | > | > >sooner that it would if operating on eight 1-1/2 volt AA
    | flashlight
    | > | > | > >batteries. Now, having said that, it is certainly true that there
    | are
    | > | > | types
    | > | > | > >of batteries that differ in voltage output by slight amounts.
    | > | Lithiums, I
    | > | > | > >believe, put out 1.55 volts per cell, and not 1.5 as do
    | alkalines.
    | > | Also,
    | > | > | the
    | > | > | > >Ni-mhd type might put out only 1.2 volts per cell, so a bulb that
    | is
    | > | > | > >nominally rated for 1.5 volts would last longer (because it burns
    | > | cooler)
    | > | > | on
    | > | > | > >a set of Ni-mhd batteries than it would on the same set of
    | lithiums.
    | > | But
    | > | > | it
    | > | > | > >isn't the fault of the battery type, but rather the total voltage
    | > | that is
    | > | > | > >impressed on the bulb filament. 12 volt lead acid batteries, for
    | > | example,
    | > | > | > >can be charged up to around 14 volts, so one should be careful
    | when
    | > | one
    | > | > | uses
    | > | > | > >them in devices that are meant for a nominal 12 volts, not
    | because of
    | > | > | their
    | > | > | > >internal resistance, but simply because 14 volts might smoke the
    | > | > | > >device.........
    | > | > | > >
    | > | > | >
    | > | > |
    | > |
    | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    | > | > | --------------------------
    | > | > | > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the
    | > | moments
    | > | > | that take our breath away. (George Carlin)
    | > | > |
    | > | > |
    | > | >
    | > | >
    | > |
    | > |
    | >
    | >
    |
    |
     
    David H. Lipman, Jun 29, 2004
    #39
  20. unavailable

    dj_nme Guest

    The result is that as the battery's internal resistance (r, in Ohms)
    goes up, then the current (i, in Amperes) that it can supply goes down.
    This means that the total power (w, in Watts) that it can supply goes
    down, because the voltage can't rise to ballance the w=iv equation and
    the worn out battery causes the bulb to either glow more dimly or
    (eventualy) not at all.
     
    dj_nme, Jun 29, 2004
    #40
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