Secure, well-adjusted Dual-booters?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Kurt Häusler, Nov 21, 2003.

  1. Well as someone who uses both linux und windows roughly evenly as both a
    user and a programmer, I feel qualified to say that these arugements are
    not childish and infantile, except for the trolls who say windows is
    better than linux.
    I would be suspicous of someone who used both, yet claimed they enjoy
    both evenly, or find them both evenly as useful, well designed, and
    powerful as each other.

    Operating Systems evaluation is only partially a matter of subjective
    opinion. For most stated tasks its possible to pick which one is best,
    that usually being linux. The main exception being games, where windows
    has a much larger software selection.
    What makes linux better than windows overall, is that fact that its
    limits can easily be overcome as it has the flexibility, openness, and
    level of support to permit changes.

    Windows does not.
     
    Kurt Häusler, Nov 21, 2003
    #1
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  2. I'm not a gamer at all, but here are two other areas in which Windows
    offers much better quality software than Linux:

    (1)
    Office suites - OOo is coming along nicely (I use it a lot in both W2K and
    Linux), but it is still a VERY incomplete tool, and no match for a truly
    outstanding suite like WordPerfect Office. I am sure it will be one day,
    but it isn't yet.

    (2)This one's a critical must-have for me.
    Speech recognition software. Dragon NatrurallySpeaking is superb, and
    indispensable to me, and there is NOTHING in Linux. IBM was toying with
    porting its ViaVoice, but that idea died, leaving this one area in which
    there is no Linux equivalent available now, nor even on the horizon.


    Apart from those specifics, the real flaw with your comment, an example of
    the thinking that prompted my post initially, is the assertion that it is
    possible to "pick which one is best". "Best" _IS_ subjective, it varies
    according to skills, user preferences, and user objectives. For some
    purposes (like Gnucash), Linux suits my needs "best". For other purposes,
    like day-to-day work in a truly professional-quality Office suite (and I
    stress that I believe OOo will be such one day) that I can control by
    voice, Windows is currently the only choice, so it is best.

    The fact that you saw fit to respond to my post with a defence of Linux's
    superiority shows that you missed the point of my post. Suspicious of me
    you may well be, but I do enjoy both equally, and view both equally. They
    are simply tools to accomplish tasks, nothing more.
     
    Max Quordlepleen, Nov 21, 2003
    #2
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  3. Kurt Häusler

    T.N.O. Guest

    I use both happily, but fit and fight for both groups :)
    that sounds much better than the suggestion of nz.comp.os and
    nz.comp.os-advocate
     
    T.N.O., Nov 21, 2003
    #3
  4. Kurt Häusler

    techie Guest

    I don't use both myself, but I don't feel all that strongly about
    Windows in a technical sense. Most of my objections are based on
    Microsoft's destructive anti-competitive business strategies, and their
    recent FUD campaign against Linux. Also I have major objections to any
    form of DRM.

    But when I'm bored, it's still fun jumping into an OS war and stirring
    things up a little more. :)
    Ah, come on. It's all in fun. Don't take this place so seriously.
     
    techie, Nov 21, 2003
    #4
  5. Believe I don't. I would just about bet that some of the participants
    do, though. As I said in my earlier post, my main complaint is
    aesthetic. Why can't we have witty, erudite, original flames? In
    a.o.l.m, for example, the snottiest, most arrogant self-appointed
    Linux god there, is Peter Breuer. Despite his overweening conceit, I
    enjoy reading some of his flames simply because they are
    well-constructed, and at times devastatingly funny (if one is not the
    target). Here, it's a good day if one of the flamethreads ascend to
    the dizzy heights of mediocrity. We need an Algonquin Round Table of
    flamers, to at least make it entertaining.
     
    Max Quordlepleen, Nov 21, 2003
    #5
  6. I am a very happy user of both W2K and Mandrake 9.2, and was just
    wondering if there were any others who read this group regularly and who
    are bemused by the perpetual infantile "mine is better than yours"
    series of flamebait threads that clog up the NG?

    I read Linux users who accuse Windows users of being brainless trolls,
    and Windows users who accuse Linux users of being unbalanced fanatics,
    and, but I don't read much from people who happily use both, without
    feeling the need to, apparently, alleviate feelings of personal
    inadequacy by extolling their chosen OS as if it were the panacea to end
    all panaceas.

    The flames wouldn't be so bad if they were at least witty, well-written
    and original. Sadly, few ever score even one out of three. Instead, we
    are treated to endless banal bashing, snide jibes at well-known
    limitations (since, of course, every OS has them).

    For the record, I prefer the OpenSource philosophy, but I find W2K to be
    a fine OS, light-years ahead of W98, and without the DRM-baggage of
    later Windows OSes.

    Perhaps all those who seem to feel the need to define themselves by their
    choice of OS could start a new group -
    nz-comp.os-bashing.get.a-room.for.crying-out.loud
     
    Max Quordlepleen, Nov 22, 2003
    #6
  7. Kurt Häusler

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    In answer to this Max, the answer is an unqualified yes.

    I've been using this newsgroup since about 1996. I've met a lot of
    good people through it over the years, and almost all communication
    with them has been off-group. The great majority of people who use
    this newsgroup read it but rarely, if ever, make any posts here. There
    is a reason for that, and time to air it.

    I've had a lot of feedback over the years about the way this NG gets
    abused by a small minority, and I can say with all certainty that the
    constant bickering, bitching, abuse & preaching is neither welcome nor
    is it wanted.

    The average person who uses newsgroups is interested in them from an
    intellectual standpoint, and they're not in the slightest bit
    interested in getting involved in flame wars, criticisms or banal
    chat. A newsgroup thread is a contained conversation. It is started
    with a statement or question on a specific subject, and is an invite
    to those with something to offer on that subject. It's topical, and if
    someone isn't interested in the topic then the thread is none of their
    business....they should stay the hell out of it.

    The frequency with which threads get hijacked by a small minority who
    poke their beaks into every conversation going precludes most people
    from starting a thread, or contributing to it. If one thinks their
    post is going to be subject to abuse, unwarranted criticism or snide
    remark then one isn't going to post. Which leaves only the thick
    skinned who don't get the message that they're not wanted here.

    Then there's the preachers, the OS fanatics & the likes. They portray
    themselves as computer experts & do their level best to intimidate
    less experienced people who might otherwise post their comments here.
    No-one likes to look a fool, and those new to newsgroups are cannon
    fodder for the preachers & trolls who see easy prey or the opportunity
    to get on their soapbox. The preachers & fanatics constantly make
    provocative posts & surprise surprise... people react to their taunts.

    The simple reality is that the average Kiwi doesn't get much of a look
    in here. Most people just can't be bothered. They're not into
    bitching, abusing people or preaching so they take a quick look....
    and leave. Those less experienced but who hold a genuine interest in
    computers won't post because they think they'll be subject to abuse,
    snide remark or similar put-down.

    So...basically if normal everyday people won't post & converse here
    then the NG is left with the trolls, the gossipers, the preachers &
    the nasty characters who like to abuse people. As it stands there's
    enough regulars who are prepared to stick up for themselves.. and
    others, to maintain at least a semblance of usability & interest for
    this NG. But it could hardly be called a computer newsgroup, there
    isn't exactly much in the way of intelligent conversation or debate
    about computers in general.

    As for dual booters, just about every experienced computer enthusiast
    is either dual-booting or running separate boxes with different OSs.
    They're just not interested in posting here because they know their
    conversation will be subjected to some form of criticism, snide
    remark, abuse or preaching. When you think about it.... it's a wonder
    any normal people post here at all. Who the hell except a masochist
    wants to be abused, criticised or preached to?

    Gavin
     
    Gavin Tunney, Nov 27, 2003
    #7
  8. Kurt Häusler

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    I think you've missed the obvious there Max. The problem stems from
    the fact that the open source philosophy has become just that - a
    philosophy. For some it's turned into a cause, a religion for want of
    a better term. The open source concept was primarily designed as a
    means of preventing commercial exploitation of the likes of Linux &
    BSD etc. Without such restrictions on using Linux anyone with an eye
    for a quick buck could poach some (free) Linux code, wrap their own
    eye candy around it and sell it as their own creation.

    The 'philosophy' came later, and now it's seen by some as the sole
    reason for open source existing. Like all causes 'open source'
    attracts the zealots. You get them with every cause, be it politics or
    religion or whatever. They find a crutch & they lean on it for all its
    worth. They're incapable of thinking for themselves, they chant the
    mantra of the day & the 'cause' becomes their world. They're
    followers, and woe betide anyone who dares to ignore their faith.
    They'll gravitate to every outlet of expression and preach the gospel.
    They'll try & drown out all dissenting views, they create an imaginary
    foe just so they can justify their self-righteous preaching.

    And every word they speak is someone else's. They can't come up with
    an original thought between them, they quote eternally from other
    sources and never have anything new to say. None of the open source
    preachers in this newsgroup have EVER come up with anything new or
    novel. It's all been said before by other people, they just keep
    repeating it ad-nauseum. Day after day of regurgitated,
    self-righteous sanctimonous pap. And in the process they wreck this
    newsgroup for everyone else, just like zealots of other causes wreck
    other newsgroups.

    And that's the crew who keep pushing Linux & bagging Microsoft here.
    They're not representative of Linux users, they just represent that
    tiny minority of mindless drones on a holy crusade & because of the
    justness of their cause the usual rules of decency & courtesy don't
    apply to them. They see themselves as being exempt from the accepted
    rules of behaviour, their mission is too important.

    On the other hand there is no "Windows cause". 99% of Windows users
    don't give a damn about Microsoft, they just use Microsoft's software.
    Windows is a commercial product. People buy it, they own it, and they
    use it. Just like they buy & use music CDs, Videos & DVDs.... etc.

    Or, to put the above in a few shorter words Max. Most of the "Windows
    users" here that you claim are accusing Linux users of being brainless
    trolls..... are Linux users themselves. They're either dual booting or
    have a separate Linux, BSD box etc. Their cause, if one wants to view
    it from that angle, is computers. They're interested in everything
    computers, and that just so happens to be what this newsgroup is - a
    'computer' newsgroup.

    The defining aspect of zealots is they can't be reasoned with. They
    won't listen to a rational argument or debate, they have their cause &
    it's unshakeable. They'll continue to preach no matter what you say,
    now matter how much you ask them to moderate their behaviour. All you
    can do with a zealot is tell them to get lost, and that's what some
    people here have been doing.. albeit in a roundabout fashion.
    No flames are welcome. Flamers & trolls are angry & bitter people with
    a chip on their shoulder, a chip that no-one wants to see. This is a
    public forum and if people can't behave reasonably here then they
    shouldn't use it.
    For the record I don't give a damn, I'm just interested in computers.
    And so are 95% of the people who subscribe to this newsgroup.

    Gavin
     
    Gavin Tunney, Nov 27, 2003
    #8
  9. I think you will find it is the other way around. If anyone can be
    accused of letting someone else do their thinking its windows users.
    Installing linux on the other hand requires a consious decision, these
    people have experienced, and been let down by windows, discover linux,
    try it out. And if they continue to use it, it shows that they have in
    fact discovered that it fits their needs better.

    I doubt anyone would use an operating system that they felt inferior
    just so they can follow some trendy bandwagon. Oh wait a minute thats
    what windows users do.
    Heh, just like you are doing now with your rather biased anti-linux-user
    rant. Note the worst of the trolls are the ones that attack the posters
    rather than state facts about the technologies the posters are
    commenting on, rather like this post of yours.

    Once again, linux users choose linux based on its technical merits,
    windows users use windows cos its the default and doesnt require them to
    think.
    Actually I find in general the open source fans, myself included, tend
    to come up with lots of practical examples of how linux or other open
    source software made something easy, or even possible, when compared
    with how it would be done in the closed source world.

    Generally windows users come up with such FUD as "its just for geeks",
    "its too hard to use", "theres no games". Sure there is some truth to
    these claims. Windows makes a far better gamers platform, but only
    because of developer support, not because of any technical superiority
    on the part of windows.

    The pro-windows users tend to come up with variations on these same 3
    claims without backing it up with comparisons against linux.

    Linux users tend to be people with experience in both operating systems,
    and therefore more qualified to compare the 2.

    Windows users tend to be people who resist even trying linux out because
    someone told them it was too hard or just for geeks. They arent speaking
    from experience just spreading FUD.

    Also linux users tend to be more technically proficient. Note I said
    "tend to be", I do realise theres some total wizards out there who are
    stuck in the windows world, some of them have even tried linux and still
    choose windows, usually for commercial reasons rather than reasons of
    technical superiority.

    I realise that most people are evaluating operating systems from a user
    perspective, and that users dont need to directly care about technical
    issues, but they should still listen to what linux users say about
    operating systems. I mean, as a driver I dont care about how a car
    works, but I still value the opinion of a mechanic when comparing and
    evaluating 2 different cars.
    Heh exactly. Windows users use windows cos its pushed on them and they
    dont have to think about it. Its like buying top 40 chart music, you
    know when you ask someone what music they like and they answer "oh just
    whatevers playing". They let the marketing work on them, and just
    swallow up what ever the commercial interests are pushing.

    Linux users think for themselves, they are like the people who hunt
    around in the back of second hand record shops looking for that special
    album.
    Heh. You are one of the most guilty people I have seen of the phenomenon
    you are criticising. You are making rash judgements about linux users
    that arent true. You claim that its linux users who are using an
    inferior operating system as a religion or something. They are
    interested in computers and their cause when making news postings is to
    help people with problems.

    The cause of windows users is simply getting the job done. There is
    nothing wrong with that, but they are the ones who follow the rest of
    the herd of sheep and use the operating system that everyone else does.

    So trying to portray linux users as mindless followers just doesnt make
    sense.

    If the windows users just want to get the job done, and dont care about
    religous wars, then why do they get involved?
    Open Source followers usually produce reasonable arguments as to why
    open source and especially linux is superior to windows, but the windows
    users dont care. And they admit to not caring. They consciously refuse
    to listen to programmers, and prefer to hold on to their belief that
    windows is better because they are scared of change, or because they
    simply believe any FUD they read on the net.

    Its windows zealots who cannot be reasoned with as they dont understand
    or contribute to informed technical debate.
    Heh, what about your post here? Its a huge meta flame, it doesnt even
    provide rational, sensible, technicaly accurate arguments as to why
    windows is superior. Its just a big misinformed whinge against linux and
    open source users.
     
    Kurt Häusler, Nov 27, 2003
    #9
  10. Kurt Häusler

    T.N.O. Guest

    Thats one hell of a generalisation.
    heh, do you mean also like this comment of yours?
    <sarcasm>Really, it is nice to know why I use the OS that I use, it must
    This is true, very true.
    Only the un-educated(well, they appear un-educated) ones claim without
    backup.
    Within reason... Just an example from the top of my head, Lennier, seems
    to have had experience with a few Operating Systems, but is so Anti
    MS/Pro Open Source, that his attitude appears very very immature, and I
    feel that he doesnt give a fair representation of Linux users, or give a
    fair trial to Ms software.
    A bit of a generalisation there, but hey, generalisations are usually
    there for a reason.
    Much like myself... well, maybe not a wizard, but getting there, and
    also trying to get there with Linux.
    I find this comment to be interesting... I listen to the top 40 type
    music, but only because I am music agnostic, I really don't care what is
    on, I'll listen to Classical Radio too, it just doesnt matter to me, but
    I don't tend to fall for the advertising/marketing of the "pop" music, I
    just don't care enough about it to change... how would you class my
    thoughts on this?
    Fairness? why do people standup for someone they don't know?
    thats where I am, but I don't tend to care about a lot.
    nah, I just don't care what the programmers say... Im not scared of
    change, but my games *don't* work in Linux... and until either a, they
    do, or b, I stop playing them, I'll use windows... atleast for a while
    anyway :)
    Thats our max... and we love him for it :)
     
    T.N.O., Nov 27, 2003
    #10
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    That is a generalisation, and all generalisations are dangerous. 8^) I have
    read many posts by Penguinistas who display herd-like behaviour. For
    example, I have read countless posts by devout, even fanatical Linux users
    who insist that Linux can do everything that Windows can, and can do it
    better. From my own personal experience I know that to be untrue, since I
    depend on Dragon Naturally Speaking, a tool which has absolutely no equal,
    nor anything even close, in Linux.

    Even as you said, most Windows users almost certainly use Windows because
    it's all they know, but there are plenty of name-calling loons on both
    sides.
    - --
    RLU 297164
    noho ora mai, ka kite ano
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    Max Quordlepleen, Nov 27, 2003
    #11
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