Scenic areas in England

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Shawn Hirn, May 4, 2009.

  1. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    And that's better is it, would it be easy for you to accept a friend or
    family
    member being shot because the police thought they were someone else.

    I don;t think it warrents the death penalty.
    I wonder if he would have been shot if his 'crime' was an out of date
    library book.
    Yep, and they should check out such things it goes on all the time but I
    still
    don't want the ploice handed guns to sort it out.
    Perhaps one needs to ask how he gets employed in the first place.



    Well I prefer not to drink in the average pub.
    Although there's a few things I agree with as regards the BNP
    but not with the majority ofm their ideals.
    So I can understand why the BNP does better thyan perhaps it should.
    I think the green party has twice the number of MPs as the BNP.
    But the BNP are cleverer at aquiring voters that are fed up with being
    treated
    as second class citizens in their own country.

    But niether seem to have enough good policies that'd I'd want them to be a
    major
    player.
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 2, 2009
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  2. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    Well that's OK, depending on what your duty is.
    I'm not to sure how to define duty in this respect either.
    I work at a college but the security staff don't carry guns,
    well not on duty anyway ;-)
    I would expect some people to perhaps carry guns while on duty,
    but why carry a gun when as said a knife can cause much more damage.
    True, but it seem in the US (although states vary) it seems to be that
    being insecure is a way of life if a significant number of people feel the
    need
    to carry a gun, here in the UK we haven't yet reach that point
    of fear or insecurity.

    Yes. She and two friends, art students actually.
    They searched their bags and looked at the photos they took and questioned
    the
    picture they took of 4 security cameras, their reasons was that it was an
    interesting
    image of the 4 camera and the fence. I'm not sure what would happen if the
    camera was a film one.
    Well it's quite a well known trick these Muslim extremists use, is that
    after
    taking pictures of their intented target they stroll to the nearest pub
    sit down and have a few beers, and of cause have a shave in the toilet
    just in case anyone spots them.

    but on this occasion the police did seem to be able to work out that
    they likelihood that these 3 weren't terrorists was high.
    They aked tehm where tehy were going so my friends said they were
    waiting fro the rain to stop and then heading off to the station to go home.
    The police then offered to give them a lift to the station as it was 20mins
    walk
    away and in the rain, so they accepted.
    They got the impression that the police aren't; exactly overjoyed by having
    to question
    everyone like this but they have to do what they are told from 'above' I
    guess.



    yes I know knives can make a mess, and just because a gun is less messy
    I don't think that should make them OK to carry around for 'self defence'

    Well this does vary, and it is amazing how many motorists seem to believe
    they can
    go 'full speed' 50-70MPH whenh the weathers bad ie. there's ice and fog.

    Some recognise the need for limits, but perhaps the limit is too low.
    It does seem like some think 100+ is acceptable for them.
    Most of those I know seem to think doing 80 on a clear road in
    a car that can handle it should be acceptable.
    But they do get annoyed at large lorries doing this sort of thing.
    Well there are those that nick cars for all sorts of purposes,
    I'd hate to see that sort of person being able to acquire a gun for self
    defence.
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 3, 2009
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  3. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    They you do not understand and from what I have seen your stance is
    wilful stupidity.

    You don't carry a gun to cause damage you carry a gun to stop a problem.

    I quite agree.
    This is true for the general population though guns are now quite
    prevalent in the petty crime circles for "status" and "respect"


    the other point is the legal guns were removed long before the
    government started on it's recent campaign of paranoia and fear see the
    new counter terrorist posters and adverts. Taking pictures of a police
    station that has been there for 100 years is suddenly a "terrorist
    threat"

    You should have said *ALL* art students are by definition COMMUNIST and
    SUBVERSIVE.... hang on... what?... Oh.... I see... It appears that
    communists are not the enemy now according to Big Brother.

    It's islamofacists. Did these girls have sandals, turbans and beards?
    If it was a film camera it is ART, digital is TERRORISM!!!!!

    Sneaky... That is just the sort of nasty deceitful thing the communists
    ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H I mean Islamofacists do.
    Suspicious that as Islamofacists come from hot coultries like Sahara,
    Inda and currystan they don't like the rain.

    Here's a tip if you see photographers with the subversive digital
    cameras hiding from the rain they are probably islamofacist terrorists.

    Of course if it is a film camera they will be nancy boy artists or
    lesbian communists (their dungarees shrink in the rain) .
    Not sure I would have trusted them... Which station? Police, bus, rail?
    Seems so.

    It isn't in the UK except by police and military (on duty) and a VERY
    few special cases.
    They are in many places. Usually where they put the cameras.

    1 gun permits in the UK for Civilians were NEVER for self defence

    2 it was not that easy to get a gun permit anyway.
    You had to be a member of a legitimate shooting club.
    You also had to convince the gun club and the Police you were suitable
    (it was often easier to convince the police than some gun clubs :)
    and of course a spotless record.

    However getting an illegal gun for self defence is much easier
     
    Chris H, Jun 3, 2009
  4. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    Well from what I hear about the mess and damage a knife can cause.
    But I guess if you're trained it helps, but then millions have died in wars,
    conflicts
    even arguments with a gun in their hand.
    I'm thinking that the only way a weapon will really protect you is if
    it's far more powerful than the weapon your opponent has unless you use
    the element of surprise, but then that might not be considered self defence.
    It's worse than that's she's an 'art' student studying illustrative
    photography
    or something.

    That's why I'd like the idea of guns staying banned or illegal to continue.
    That is a bit of a shame but then if someone can be killed by stealing
    such a weapon I do think these 'sporting' weapons should be as
    carefully controlled as anthrax or plutonium is.

    I don;t believe that any more than I believe designer clothes don't; have
    any impact
    on fake designer clothes being sold. Same as I believe the number of mobiles
    phones
    in use is accelerated by the number of people that have mobile phones,
    we live in a society of "I see I want" perhaps the UK isn;t as 'bad' as
    america but we're
    not far behind. Gangstar rap didnt; originated in the UK but somehow lots of
    kids are into it.
    Advertisers know this effect very well, google especailly know this.
    They know that links i.e seeing something makes enough people want it in
    order that
    a company like Google can make huge profits from it.
    If I see my neighbour with a gun and the bloke across the road and my
    friends
    all get one then I might get the impression I need one too.
    I don;t remember anyone in the 70s that needed to keep in almost constant
    contact
    with their friend via a phone they could usually wait until they got home to
    the office
    or went in a 'phone box' remember those. I now know people that can't go
    30mins
    without using a phone. it's amazing the human race has survived since Jesus
    was
    born without a mobile. I can still survive without one.
    I've had a though to make my fist million, a gun with a built in mobile
    phone. :)
    or rather a phone with a built in gun whichever makes me the most money .

    Only just, we have a lot of things in common.
    Even my local KFC is a drive thru !
    I do wonder when the first 'illegal' gun was used in the US as I would
    assume
    that all guns that went with our pilgrims were legal.

    Legal guns kill too, it's be nice if they only killed criminals but that's
    not the case.
    But it doesn't stop average people wanting them and others then selling
    them
    to those that want them. Monkey see, monkey do.


    Not true, because legal guns kill, unfortunaltly you can;t program them
    to just kill criminals.

    Guns don't breed, before legal guns no one knew of the invention the only
    reason
    illegal guns exist is becuse of legal guns.
    After the first phaser is designed and used and found effective illegals
    ones will
    come in to being.


    yes she imported it from Iraq, which is why the USA couldn't find them.
    But remmebr WMD are OK if 'friends' have them if yuo're not a friend
    of the USA/UK then they are illegal.
    My first experince of seeing a 'fake' camera was a Nicon.
    It was one of those plastic 'SLR' advertised in a national paper at
    knock-down prices. in the mid 70s.

    No but, some of her hair did, and she wore Doc marten type boots rather than
    sandels.

    sccch not so loud.
    Just past the post office on the left, you know the one they closed last
    year.

    I guess there's some, but I'm not sure who would need to carry a gun
    for self defence unless it was part of their job.
    Well as with all things it becomes easier, it now seems easier to buy a
    car that can go well above the speed limits in the UK.
    People do like to have fast cars but it's not because tehy want to drive
    fast is it.
    I'ts not even because they want to break the law.
    It's not like the availability of cars to drive above the speed limit
    encourages
    drivers to drive fast

    I don;t believe that.
    It's like saying there's no conenction between speeding motorists
    and fast cars.

    Well the legal gun that was stolen from a gun club and used to shoot
    someone would not have happened.
    The reason why that person was shot and killed wass because the shooter
    knew the location of the gun.
    There's always claims and counter claims.
    Those legal gun owners when they lost their guns how did that affect them.
    if tehy were shooting what did they spend thier money on......
    Did they stick it up their arse... or did they buy moer beer, drugs, cameras
    did they invest the money, or give it to charity, or just leave it in the
    bank.
    Perhasp they brought a really nice hat, I hear hats are making a comeback,
    Celebes are wearing them and it seems the more people that see people
    wearing hats
    seems to have a knock on effect that more peolpe want hats.
    Apparentyl there's been a 25% increase in hat demand compared to last year.
    Like iPods I think the number of illegal hats (stolen, counterfeit, perhaps
    dangerous)
    will increase and this is linked to the number of legal ones.
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 5, 2009
  5. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    At close range it is messy. a gun can stop people getting to thatr
    close range.
    Not the same argument.
    Powerful and dangerous are not the same thing.
    It depends on the situation.

    All "art students" are all communists/socialists/intellectuals mostly
    gay or lesbian and traitors to their country they are all subversive and
    should be shot on sight....

    The Police should have deported them!
    The legal guns were never carried for self defence so your argument is
    not valid.

    Well first you need to control the items that are commonly used to
    murder people such as kitchen knives, cars, bats of all types, hammers,
    bricks etc

    The numbers of people killed by stolen legally held guns is so small the
    problem is insignificant compared to the other methods. You would do far
    better to solve the more significant problems.

    Why spend all the budget to save one person when you can spend half to
    save 100's?
    Hard luck. It is a fact.
    That had more effect on illegal gun ownership than any legal gun would
    ever have.

    90% of the public never *knowingly* came in to contact will legal gun
    owners or as you pointed out not even the gun shops. Rap and films
    however did have an effect.

    You would do far better banning Gangster rap and the "wrong sort" of
    films than legal guns
    No such thing as a legal or illegal gun in those days I think it was
    only between WW1 and WW2 that effective gun licenses came in for the UK
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

    Legal guns should not be used to kill anyone. You seem to be continually
    confusing the UK and the US (and you own paranoia) the UK legal gun
    culture for the has 80 odd years has had no concept of "self defence"
    and shooting criminals (or anyone else) bar a few disciplines
    Only with illegal guns. And as you say monkey see monkey do which is why
    there has be the increase in the number of illegal guns.

    However this has no connection with the legal guns in any way.

    True but no legal gun owner would shoot at the police. AFAIK none eve
    has.
    Legal gun owners don shoot anyone. Those that did (and in those cases it
    was usually shotguns on criminals) they go jailed for it.

    You seem to have a dangerous attitude that renders you unsafe to have a
    gun.
    NOT at all. You have some extremely flawed logic. There are no legal
    guns but there are many illegal guns.
    Doc-Marten's? Clearly a Lesbian!
    OK.... Hang on you know where three post office is? Obviously sizing it
    up for your next heist.

    Normally. Also most get an armed detective. IT is VERY few who are armed
    themselves. A pistol in the hands of an amateur is of danger to
    anything in range. In the hands of a trained professional it is only a
    danger to the [hopefully legitimate] target.
    Sorry it is true.
    That is a different argument.
    That is VERY unusual as I never knew any gun clubs that kept any
    firearms on the premises when the club was not manned. They were usually
    alarmed anyway.

    Canyou cite the case in question ? Of line if you prefer.

    Well for most they lost a lot of money as the compensation rarely
    covered the cost so the kit. Certainly not in my case.

    Many hunting/fishing shops went bust... why? They also did guns and when
    they lost that 10% of turn over it was just enough to make then loss
    making.

    That is apart from the gun shops that went and all the supply
    industries.

    There were many highly trained gunsmiths who lost their livelihoods.
    Drove several to suicide. So the banning of guns cost lives and
    livelihoods and businesses. Was it worth it? It certainly hasn't saved
    any lives.
     
    Chris H, Jun 5, 2009
  6. Shawn Hirn

    Ofnuts Guest

    You, of course, have hard facts to support this...
    You, of course, have hard facts to support this...
     
    Ofnuts, Jun 5, 2009
  7. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    Yes... Come to Birmingham I can show you the rows of closed workshops
    and dealers premises.
    Do you have any to the contrary?
     
    Chris H, Jun 5, 2009
  8. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    That's why I think guns would be preferred when the majority have the
    choice.
    Mendes found that out.

    But there's a strong link, things that aren't powerful aren't very dangerous
    in general.

    Why not shoot them on sight, like Mendes.
    But in the post of 1st June you wrote :-

    "I have carried a gun for self defence whist on duty in the UK.
    but not off duty."

    I can understand the queens body guard and maybe G. Browns
    carrying a legal weapon.

    So tell me what reasons people carry legal guns for.....in the UK of course.


    They are, where possible but the problem is that all the above have
    common uses that the average person can use in the daily course of their
    lives,
    unlike guns which you've already admited were never carried for self defense
    so perhaps you could tell me why they were carried.
    True but there's no reason why both can't be addressed.
    We don't really need to solve one problem before moving on to the next.

    That usually depends on expense accounts and special handshakes.

    Sounds like one of those made up facts.
    There's does seem to be a demand for guns and that demand doesn't just come
    from
    those that are after legal guns.
    Now when Star trek phaser become a reality there will be thosewanting them
    for defence purposes (as there are with Taser) not long after there will be
    a demand
    for phahsers on teh black marlet and these will be illegal, but they won't
    exist until someone desgns and makes a legal working version.

    But where did the idea of carrying guns as a weapon of choice come from.
    Someone must have got teh idea somewhere, otr they'd be carrying phasers
    which
    are a much better weapon.

    Yes but only because the things actually exist.
    Which is why there's not a black market for phasers.

    But gangsta Rap only requires a mouth and an ear to listen to it.
    Guns seem to require manufactuer, distruibutuion, profit etc...


    And for that reason I'd prefer guns to be kept out of the UK.
    But I know that's not possible any more than keeping swine flu out.
    But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take action to minimise any
    potential threat.

    But they have, not only that but they still have the ability to kill that's
    what
    makes them valuble for defence or anything else.

    it doesn;t have to, it the peolpe that get the perception and when they see
    such things happen in the USA from iPods, walk in fridges to uzi 9mm and
    rocket launchers. People want what they see.
    In the UK we have the phrase keeping up with the Jones, which refers
    to being equal with your next door neighbours whether it's gardening mowers
    cars, holidays, etc.....
    Not sure iof teh Ameraicans have a term for it.


    if we could stop illegal guns being made that's be OK, but tehy tend to be
    modellled dorectly on legal guns unfortunatly.
    Before the invention of the legal guns illegal guns didn't exist.

    Well not on purpose one would hope.
    But no one has ever been killed by the illegal use of an atomic weapon.
    The deaths were delibrate in teh name of war as a form of self defence
    and the rest were accidents, and the only way to keeop it that way
    is to make sure on one else gets hold of the weapons.

    Perhasp that's because few peolpe are legal gun owners
    due to strict regulationjs removing them might change things.
    That does't help the victim.
    Don't know really, what if I had a legal gun would that be OK.

    yes she is her boyfriend of 15 years is a lesbian too.

    Yep as mendes found out. :)
    But from what I've heard I don;t blame the policeman that did the shooting.


    Not really as this happened soem time ago.
    A girl I knew 12 years ago mentioned that she (was mid 20s then) could shoot
    and used to go shooting at the age of 14 at a gun club, although this could
    have been just a farmhouse where the range was setup and she 'trained' .
    I used to go to a camera club in a room above a library.
    Camera weren;t normall stored there although AV equipment was.
    Her father used to take her. One day a member of the gun club broke it to
    wherever
    the gun in question was stored, stole it and shot someone dead.
    I assume this gun was legally held as apparently it was registered.

    I can understand being pissed off about it.
    So, shit happens, I'm sure there are other ways of making money.
    But them fishing and stamp collecting has had a downturn same with record
    shops.
    Wellit';s a shame but arms dealers always make money in teh end.
    I don't think I'd like to promote sellign guns in order for a few 1000
    to make money from it any more than I'd wantr them to refine plutonium.

    There's no way to prove that unfortunatly.
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 8, 2009
  9. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    Only Police, military, Customs and Excise etc it is very rare for a non-
    government person to be able to carry a gun for self defence. In fact
    the normal civilian FAC does not give you that right. (I had civilian
    guns as well as working guns)
    No guns were used for sport like horses, javalins, shot, hammers,
    spears, swords etc etc
    You are mixing two distinct and complete separate things.
    Official guns for self defence by members of the Police, military etc.
    This has not changed an in fact there are more guns carried for this
    purpose.

    Legal civilian guns carried to and from a place of safe keeping to the
    range and back. No other reason (other than buying from a shop etc)

    There were NO LEGAL NON GOVERNMENT GUNS CARRIED FOR SELF DEFENCE (not
    quite true but fro all practical purposes this is the case)

    A LOT of illegal guns that were never legal being held by criminals and
    carried for self defence. This group is completely separate to the first
    two. Other than the government is arming more police due to the rise in
    illegal armed crime.

    Why solve a no existent problem by using a vast amount of money and
    resources to have a virtually ZERO effect other than running a lot of
    businesses and lively hoods when you can spend far less on getting a
    real change in the amount of armed crime?

    It is a total waste of resources and cost a lot of lives. Many have
    been killed and seriously injured by illegal weapons that were not
    removed because the government spent all that time and money removing
    legal guns that were not going to hurt anyone.

    It appears you are on the side of the armed criminal because you want
    resources that could be used to stop them to be used to stop people who
    were not going to do anything any way
    COMPLETE CRAP There is no truth in that at all. You must be loosing the
    argument to bring that in
    The demand for illegal guns has nothing to do with the legal gun trade
    or owners. The two are complete separate.
    You are as usual completely confusing two things. The UK legal gun
    owners NEVER had a culture of "carrying guns" that is only from the US
    and illegal owners (criminals) in the UK
    You mean ILLEGAL guns. If illegal guns were not available there would
    be no market.

    Legal guns are nothing to do with it.
    There is. Seriously but it is not at the street gang level. Lazer
    weapons have been around a while. The nearest the street gangs get to
    the mare the lazer pointers they use against busses, trains and police
    helicopters as came up a couple of weeks ago
    Yes. Most of it, like the drug trade illegal.

    On the same theme you are suggesting we ban all legal drugs so it stops
    criminals getting hold of them....

    Too late. There are thousands of illegal gun here now. Banning the legal
    guns only destroyed legal businesses and cost a fortune. It had no
    effect what so ever on the illegal trade.
    Then spend the money effectively... ban illegal guns... Oh.. I forgot
    you spent all the money on removing the legal guns that were not a
    threat in the first place.

    Same as legal drugs, cars kitchen knives

    Your constant whining makes you sound like some one who is afraid of
    their own shadow. Pathetic really.

    You applaud a ban that is only obeyed by people who were no threat and
    ignored by those who are a threat. Counter productive really.

    Yes... So ban the US in put to the UK? We are now on to censorship/
    Yes. And your point is?
    Removing what? There are no legal guns to relax the rules on
    You would probably not have got one. You need to convince people you are
    safe first.
    Me neither. They were told you have a positively identified suicide
    bomber in his target zone. Given those instructions they only had one
    course of action. Any other had a very high (almost certain) chance of
    at least 20 fatalities.

    You have 0.5 of a second to gamble with 20 lives.... to late!

    The faults lay elsewhere in the operation

    So it is hearsay.
    Then it was illegal ALL ranges in the UK had to be MoD Approved to VERY
    strict guidelines. If they stored firearms on the premises (which was
    VERY rare) they would have been alarmed and very secure. Not something
    other than your average safe breaker would have got into
    Not the same thing
    You have no real idea. Do you?
    Apparently?

    This is a friend of a friend "some years ago shot some one... In fact
    other than a half heard third hand story that you can't back up you
    don't know of ANY Legal gun that was EVER used in any crime!
    The money was not relay the point though
    However they did not forcibly have their livly hood taken off them for
    no good reason We have already established the only case you knew of for
    incorrect use of a gun is so full of holes it is untrue.
    What arms dealers?
    You really have no idea at all do you?
    When Rover closed down in Birmingham they said 4 times as many lost
    their jobs in supply industries It was the same in the gun trade.

    There is a vast amount of goods that were involved other than the guns

    Ironically all the big gun makers and the Arms dealers are still there
    and in business. It was only the UK gun shops that went. Along with most
    of the UK support industries.

    The gunsmiths who did bespoke work, repairs, engraving etc all went
    though...

    The Smith and Wesson, Colts, STAR, BRUNO etc of this world all carried
    on. You can still buy their guns in the UK... All illegal of course.

    But remember you did not want to stop that illegal trade... you spent
    all the money and resources on closing UK businesses and removing the
    legal guns for which you can not eve find one credible miss use of.

    It can most certainly be proved. It has been too.
    Take the money, recourses and time that was used to remove the illegal
    guns and put it against projects in the inner city and changing the
    culture there and it would have saved dozens of lives.

    Not to mention saved 100's of businesses
    but I forgot... you did not want the money spent on stopping the illegal
    gun trade. You wanted to waste on a non existent threat based on a half
    heard story from a friend of a friend.

    Your scared of your own shadow do-good philosophy has probably killed
    more than it could ever save. I hope you can live with yourself.
     
    Chris H, Jun 8, 2009
  10. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    Well that makes sense.
    and that have what purpose.
    Well I've thrown javalins at school, not sure where I'd buy one myself.
    I'm unsure about spears as regards sport, swords well not at school.

    I wonder why ?
    Well of course that is their story isn;t it, but I don;t think they carry
    guns because
    the drug dealer next door has a bread knife.
    Well that's what I thought and heard. I thought all crime was illegal too.

    You won't stopped armed crime by selling legal weapons for sport either.
    You might stop an innocent person getting shot see mendes case
    Hamilton had licences for six guns leading to criticism of the police for
    not questioning what he used them for. But the inquiry concluded his actions
    on that day could not have been predicted
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/13/newsid_2543000/2543277.stm

    not sure if you'd class these legal guns as not hurting anyone.


    Well as I said I know of at least one legal gun that killed.
    First you have to believe they'll not do anything anyway, then you have to
    be sure
    no one will aquire their gun.

    "His speciality was turning legally purchased MAC-10s into weapons that
    could fire live rounds, an increasingly common practice"
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

    although we share a surname he is no relation as far as I know.

    Why do criminals want to buy illegal guns rather than legal guns, don;t you
    think
    they'd rather go into ASDA and buy them.
    You're at least 10 years behind the times.
    American culture is in the UK, well in big cities anyway.
    It's the 16 year-olds that are carrying guns,

    They didn;t get this from their parent
    any more than they got the trousers around their ankles fashion.
    Kids watch TV, most of the crap on TV is American although we are producing
    more
    crap ourselves.
    No legal guns.

    I'm not sure when the first gun was 'invented' but I'm betting it didn;t
    take
    a coulpe of hundred years before 'the penny dropped' and someone
    found an illegal use for them

    Yes they are.

    if legal; guns didn't exist then I doubt bullets would be sold for illegal
    guns.
    The only reason criminals or those intending criminal activity buy illegal;
    guns
    is because legal guns aren't available.



    And where did they not only get the idea of using a Lazer is because legal
    ones exist.
    There's not a great market for illegal photon torpedos either .
    Why because they don;t exist in the real world.
    It is extremly rare perhaps non existsant for a weapon to only have illegal
    uses
    and only availible illegaly.
    I know it is a lot easier for me to obtain an illegal gun than a legal one.

    And if you made them legal then you'd reduxce illegal trade
    (depending on price/aviailbility)
    No, but drugs rarely hurt others unless a drink is spiked etc....
    Havign an oucne of doped thropwn at you won;t do much damage.
    legal or not.

    How do you know that ?
    Do you think thre's more or less illegal gun trade in the US than the UK.
    They are a threat and always will be same as the govenment stocks
    of viruses. The last outbreak of foot&mouth came from leak it wasn;t a
    natrual
    occurence.

    illegal drugs have a use too,
    Some prefer them to the expensive coparate controled legal ones which
    can have far more harmful effects. But that too is about jobs and money.

    Not my own shadow but perhasp a shadow of a gun legal or illegally owned.
    Are you suggesting a legal gun couldn;t be used to kill me.


    No.
    I'd like legal guns to be more carefully controlled, and I would want to see
    them on specail offer in supermarkets.

    No they can see all they want, they just don;t get because they want.


    How can anyone have something that doesn;lt exist.
    OK try this time travel, I'd like to go back in time but would it
    be OK tom sell such travel legally should anyone be able to go back
    in time and change what they want, or should it be retricted.
    So the police (some) in the UK don't have guns ????????????????????

    Safe in what way, that no one would ever take my gun and use it
    without my consent, or that I wouldn't take some drug or halucinate or
    have a breakdown or shoot the wrong person by mistake, or give it to a 5
    year-old.
    I too need to truest someone with a leathal weapon before I'd like to see
    them have access top it, let alone keep it under their pillow or in their
    pocket.
    Yopu seem to be under the impression that legal guns aren't dangerous.
    At least I totally agree with that, but given that these officers had legal
    guns
    and they can kill just as well as illegal ones, I wouldn;t want everyone
    policeman or not to carry one, just incase a superior or collegue says that
    the one,
    get him. Only to find out is because of an out of date library ticket.

    A bit like mendes jumping over barriers.

    I'm not sure if it was an offical range. but the guns were legal.

    seemed the member had access
    She seemd to know what she was talking about and having knowledge
    of such things.

    Stranage that, lots of army weaponary was legal.
    yuo had your toys taken away, even worse.
    It's not the onmly case I'm betting there were many others.

    If those gun shops weren;t selling for profit what were they selling for ?

    Lots of people are involved in the illegal cannabis trade, so why not make
    it legal
    how many people have been killed by cannabis.
    But it's OK for cig componies to increase the amount of adictive chemicals
    in cigs.
    I guess that a shame, but there are many industries that employ people.
    Now their a suprise if Smith and Wesson, Colts, STAR, BRUNO hadn't ever made
    guns
    I'm bettign illegal versions of their guns wouldn;t exist.
    Who said that, I didn;t
    Like the mendes case and many more where even the police shoot the wrong
    person.

    Removing illegal or legal guns or ever chewing gum off teh streets employed
    people.
    If we made all parking legal impagime all those employed checking making
    desinging
    parking meters would all be unemployed .
    The fact that it is illegal is the first move in stopping it, making it all
    legal wouldn;t
    save any lives.
    Seems many others don;t see it that way.
    quite esially I can see little to applaud the USA and it's gun culture
    but they can;'t do much about it now. But if we give everyone the right to
    carry a gun it
    will result in more innocent people getting killed.

    Just comapre the numbers killed in teh US/UK
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 9, 2009
  11. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    The amount of armed crime has gone up in real terms.... as the number of
    private legal guns has sharply declined.

    ANY link between legal and illegal guns is counter productive to your
    argument. However as I have continually pointed out there is no cause
    and effect link between the two in the UK. In the USA it is a different
    matter
    I agree... they carry the sort of guns that were NEVER legal in the UK
    for civilians.

    There were no non-government guns involved. The did not thing Mendes was
    armed with a firearm. Had been "only" armed with a gun they would not
    have opened fire as they did. He was shot because (as far as the
    shooters knew) he had an armed bomb.

    Also you have no case about anyone being shot with a legal gun... you do
    have many cases of innocent people being shot by the illegal guns you
    are not bothered about getting off the street

    ALL the local gun clubs that knew him and the local firearms team DID
    question his use and ALL recommended that he was not permitted to keep
    them I have the Cullen Report thanks.
    NO YOU DO NOT You have a half heard un substantiated third hand case of
    some one doing something. You know nothing of the sort.
    Hasn't happened so far appart from your mythical case that happened to a
    friend of a friend where the bits you can remember don't stack up.
    You can not buy a MAC10 legally in the UK what you are talking about is
    a criminal illegally manufacturing guns. He is using parts of TOYS in a
    working gun.

    So do you want to ban toy guns now?
    ANYTHING but face the real problem.

    To think I put my life on the line for idiots like you.
    Because you can't buy legal guns without a permit and as soon as you do
    they know who has the gun (by serial number) and if you are IN ANY WAY
    criminal then you don't get a licence.

    Anything over a speeding/parking ticket was enough to stop you getting
    an FAC and if the police had a long list of data on you they could
    refuse even if they had not got as far as arresting you yet.
    I agree. BUT THEY WERE NEVER LEGAL GUN OWNERS You are confusing the
    Illegal criminals with the sports shooters.

    I agree. SO instead of stooping the illegal guns you favour spending all
    the money and resources on removing the legal guns that were not hurting
    anyone whilst kids were getting killed on the streets all because you
    are afraid of your own shadow.

    I give up you really are not living in the real world. If you talk to
    your local police lice this they are all likely to resign. What is the
    point of putting your neck on the like for an idiot like you.
    They never were in supermarkets. You are not in the real wiorld.
    Not if it was an illegal range.
    So you have guesswork and hearsay...
     
    Chris H, Jun 9, 2009
  12. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    Do yuo really think there is a link here.
    Do you really think a person with a sporting gun has any chance of reducing
    armed crime. I think iof you gave everyone a gun that wanted one for sport I
    don't
    think armed crime would fall.

    But our 'culture' grows closer and closer to US culture almost daily.
    it might not always be a bad thing some might think fast food restaurants
    are a
    good, idea I thought it was, but can;t help thinking that perhaps there's a
    link
    with obesity.

    Perghaps that's because civilians wouldn;t really need such guns.
    So wouldn';t it be best to keep them illegal.



    and they were wrong, and he lost his life because of that mistake.
    It's bad enough that it happened without arming more police.
    What makes you say thatm the fact that they are illegal is what makes
    them removable off the street. Any person in teh UK seen carrying a gun
    is most likely to be carryign an illegal weapon and be reported to the
    police.
    But if they are such things as legal guns on the street how would you know
    whether or not to report it.
    Anything that is illegal should be 'off' the street.

    And what exaclty makes a gun legal or not ?
    Is it what people think or the law.


    Doesn't change anything though does it.
    Lots of peole know things that are true wether or not it can be proved is
    another thing.
    So, I preger them not to be brought illegally either.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-years-murdering-men-drug-deal-bloodbath.html

    I really don;t care whether they are brought legally or illegally it the use
    they are put
    to is what concerns me.

    Yep I ban any toy that could kill. This includes fluffy bunnies for kids
    that have
    metal pins to keep the eyes in.
    Perhaps that's it.
    without idouts walkignaround with dangerous weapons would me you were
    redundent
    in society, I'd like us to to have to have nuclear weapons or an army or a
    navy.
    But it employs a lot of people I guess.


    Isn;t that why serial no.s are filled off,
    Hopefully not but some do get licenses despite people as you';ve said
    shouldn't
    have one. But like plutonium I know that the more people of countries
    that have it the easier it is for someone else to get it.

    So remind me how Mr Hamilton managed to kill 16 .

    Again why did Mr Hamilton have guns.


    I have no way of stopping illegal guns any more that I have of stopping
    illegal
    cars, but what I can do is if I see a car that is illegal i.e no insurence
    or no tax disc
    I can get it reported. If I see someone carrying a gun, then unless is't a
    policeman
    the chances are it's illegal and I can report it.

    I do.
    And I can;t see any harm in someone smoking a bit of pot or selling a bit to
    a friend.
    But of course now as the police have been successful in reducing the amount
    of imported
    dope which had a lower THC content criminals are home growing much more
    lethal
    varieties, in larger quantities and because of the risks and profits are
    greater
    so this needs protecting from others. Years ago it was people bringing
    ounces in
    from abroad, now it's more organised with criminal gangs takign control.
    year ago my 'local' police well local to my 'local' pub were arrested
    for consiracy of armed robbery or something.
    Again around the early 1980s chingford police station I think.
    near the Kings head pub, where they stopped me from buying
    my fav. drink of Pils, blacurrent and vodka. Their excuse was because people
    got violent on it and caused trouble.




    I don;t know what is required before something is called a range.
    is a set of tin cans on a wall aracnge od you you have to have a specail
    shed with earmuffs and remote controlled targets.
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 10, 2009
  13. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    As I have pointed out several times there IS NO LINK BETWEEN LEGAL AND
    ILLEGAL GUNS IN THE UK

    As I have pointed out several times there IS NO LINK BETWEEN LEGAL AND
    ILLEGAL GUNS IN THE UK
    As I have pointed out several times there IS NO LINK BETWEEN LEGAL AND
    ILLEGAL GUNS IN THE UK
    I agree
    No it would be best to spend the money on removing them. That is the
    money you preferred to see used on removing guns that were not a danger
    to the public. Why do you support the illegal uses of guns?

    Due to you preference for spending all the money and resources on
    removing the legal guns there is no money and resources to stop the
    illegal guns so they have to arm more police.

    That is the direct result of the your supported action of removing the
    legal guns,
    Not usually. You are living in a very strange world that is not
    connected to reality.
    Not at all. You report ALL guns seen on the street.
    However you want them on the street. This is clear from your instance
    that we should waste all the time, money and resources removing the
    legal guns whilst not targeting the illegal ones.

    No it isn't you support the use of all the money, time and resources to
    remove the legal guns rather than tackle the illegal ones that are a
    danger to the community
    Good question. The local gun clubs that knew him AND his local police
    recommended he did not have his FAC renewed. So why did a senior police
    officer overrule the local firearms team?

    Yes you do but you wanted to spend all the money, time and resources
    removing the legal guns that were not a threat to anyone and not tackle
    the problem of illegal guns that do kill and injur many in the UK
    You can report it anyway. The Police ALWAYS reacted as though it was
    illegal until proved otherwise.
     
    Chris H, Jun 10, 2009
  14. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    well that's your opinion I guess.
    But I tend to think that without the existence of legal guns illegal guns
    wouldn't exist.
    Same way as I bet one day they will be illegal transporter activity, this
    will happen
    some time after the transportor is invented and people start using it, I'm
    betting
    that someone will use it to get in to a bank or to do something illegal.
    I'm bettign in tiem someone will make an illegal transporter too,
    but not before the invention of a legal transporter.


    So soon will have a link between legal and illegal guns as we move closer to
    US culture. The world might not be shrinking but it is socially and
    culturally
    getting smaller.

    And how would that be done employing the dowg.... (bounty hunter)
    to go around searching everyone.

    But you then still ahve to define the differnce between a legal gun
    and an illegal gun, which you havent; done accept to say there is NO
    link between the two.


    Money don't go around removing anything peolpe do that.

    So there is a link then, the more illegal; gun, the more legal guns you need
    to
    sort it out.
    I've never supported such action becuse I can't tell teh differncde between
    a
    legal gun and an illegal one, they've looked pretty much the same to me.

    What do you mean by not usually, are you saying I shouldn't report a gun
    sighting
    if I happen to see one, that I believ to be illegal.?
    At least one of us is.


    So when I was driven through dalston lane a few months back with
    aremed police standing outside a club I should have reported them.
    I thought police carried egal weapons and that they didn't kill.
    In the early 80s I was in Stockholm and that was the first time I'd seen
    police with a gun (in what you might call the real world), it was a very
    large gun
    which is what suprised me.
    Not sure where you got that idea.

    you tell me, I don;t care.
    maybe they were having sex together, perhaps money was exchanged
    perhaps they were in the same secret club with special handshakes, I don;t
    know.
    I assume that he had his very own FAC then that must have given him the
    right to own
    and perhaps use cetain types of fire arms in a similar way that a driving
    licence
    allows you to drive a car/vehical of specific type(s).
    I don;t know if you can legally own a gun but not be able to legally fire
    it.
    I think you can own a car but not be able to drive it legally.


    How then ?

    I could think of various ways, but no legal as yet.

    I would do, but I would hope that all the uniformed police that I've seen
    carrying guns are legal guns and I'm hoping they have been well trained,
    I agree that perhaps I live in hope a bit to much, but I'd feel a little
    silly
    going up to an armed policeman and saying do you know the policeman over
    there is carrying a gun as I'd like to report this occurrence .
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 12, 2009
  15. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    No it's a fact
    Nope... There are no privately held legal guns in the UK .

    An illegal gun is one you do not have Government permission to own
    A legal gun is one that you have government permission to own

    Simple

    Not in the past. We actually had to stop a range in mid shoot due to a
    Police team making a real mess of things. Police training is a lot
    better now.
    As I said you are not connected to sanity or the real world. (Which may
    of may not be the same)
     
    Chris H, Jun 12, 2009
  16. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    Then you should be able to prove it.
    http://www.lancenich.f9.co.uk/

    I guess yuo can't buy what's on their site then.
    http://www.lancenich.f9.co.uk/Shotguns and Rifles.htm

    but I'll leave you to report them.

    So did Hamilton own such a gun, or to put it another way.
    Did he have Government permission to own one any or all of the weapons he
    owned.

    Nice to hear that someones checking up on people that are 'saving' us
    from our shadows
    Bit late fior some I guess Mendes ect.. but as long as we learn from
    our mistakes it's OK isn't it ?
    From what I see of trhe so called real world that's quite a relief.

    But I thought it all came down nto teh size of your sensor.
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 12, 2009
  17. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    Interesting point. Yes they were legal but everyone recommended that
    his FAC be cancelled.
    No the incident was 25 years ago.

    Mendes learnt from his mistake of bing a criminal.
     
    Chris H, Jun 12, 2009
  18. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    Which makes me wonder why his FAC wasn't cancelled, perhaps this is just one
    of
    the reasosn why the general public don't want guns made legal because they
    know what
    will happen.
    I'd have little problem with guns being available if I knew they'd be
    properly
    controlled. In the same way I'd vote for a politician if I knew he was
    telling the truth,
    but when I aksd for a signed statement that he'd pay me £10k if he was lying
    then I found he(the canvassers) wasn't interested in my vote.

    Well hopefully things are better now, but it's dufficult to tell sometimes.

    How did he learn, dead people don't learn much from what I've heard.
    Perhaps he's friends and family have though, perhaps I should aplpy it to
    my students :)
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 15, 2009
  19. Shawn Hirn

    Chris H Guest

    That is a very good question. The decision to grant was made higher up
    the tree than the usual team... (not the Freemasons were not involved)
    They were.

    The problem is, was and will be the illegal ones you prefer not to deal
    with because you preferred to remove the legal guns that were not a
    problem thus supporting the criminals against the law abiding public.

    Clearly you are not on the side of law and order.
    Yes tell them
    1 do not stagy in a country illegally
    2 do not lie about who you are to get a job involving public safety

    Your students?

    Are you an academic/teacher?
     
    Chris H, Jun 15, 2009
  20. Shawn Hirn

    whisky-dave Guest

    Well that isn't a suprise, sometimes the higher up the person is the less
    they can see
    of what actually happens at ground level.

    So how come 15 or so kids were shot dead in dunblan then. Then there was the
    hungerford incident with 'legal guns'.
    In the two incidents I've mention 31 people were shot with a gun legally
    held.
    if these two weren't law abiding then how come that had the right to own a
    gun.
    Well that depends on how order is achived, did yuo see the taser incident on
    TV
    last night.
    Well I think they know that which is why they have student visas,
    although I would prefer the government to sort out who should and shouldn't
    be here and find methods of keeping or removing illegal immigrants without
    having to shoot them dead, it far to inefficient and costly for the tax
    payer.

    I think that goes for everyone, including the police.

    No, Technician although I do impart my knowledge in an electronics teaching
    lab,
    so I refer to them as my students when in my lab.
    This coming year I've been told that I have to get the students to sign for
    knives/scalpels that they borrow and use in the lab as part of H&S rather
    than them
    using them to commit a crime.
     
    whisky-dave, Jun 16, 2009
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