Rules of Conduct for Microsoft Newsgroups

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by John Eddy [MSFT], May 27, 2004.

  1. John,

    Would you be able to cite which posts contain the personal attacks?

    Since MSFT reps seem to only reply here sporadically at best, it seems
    that they seem to condone the blatant cheating, spamming, and pirating posts
    that go on here, but do not want "personal attack" posts to go
    =?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE?=, May 28, 2004
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  2. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Consultant Guest

    john, ill have to disagree to your disagreeing with network guru's agreeing
    to your original post. agreed?
    Consultant, May 28, 2004
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  3. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Consultant Guest

    id like to know how it is considered a personal attack responding to an
    anonymous post?

    that would be like yelling out "PUNK" at a rap concert
    Consultant, May 28, 2004
  4. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Neil Guest

    yes I haev helped PSS through a few of my problems too...harumph!
    Neil, May 28, 2004
  5. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Neil Guest

    ok, but how many had it coming? I will be more than willing to tone down
    my posts if I don't have to read another braindump request again. that's
    it, no other requests. you can bring on the non-googling lamers and I
    will point them over there -----------> all the time. just please nail
    the hides of the dumpers to the wall. I worked hard for my cert and it
    boils my britches to see M$ giving a wink and a nod to those that will
    make the certs pointless.

    my $0.02
    Neil, May 28, 2004
  6. which would instantly exclude the web interface.


    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 28, 2004
  7. john, ill have to disagree to your disagreeing with network guru's agreeing
    you try to confuse

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 28, 2004
  8. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Consultant Guest

    it is real

    Consultant, May 28, 2004
  9. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Neil Guest

    yes, perhaps not as much of a down side as initially anticipated
    Neil, May 28, 2004
  10. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Ken Briscoe Guest

    Speaking of YTTC, where is Jtyc lately? He's not...."working" he?
    Ken Briscoe, May 28, 2004
  11. How many cites do you want?

    Crap, another one. Thanks so much for your valuable insight, <expletive

    Tired Thug"

    ">its no wonder that people think your a dick neil

    rich coming from a cheating, low life, brain dumper such as yourself.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3"

    "its no wonder that people think your a dick neil"

    Strictly speaking, there aren't any rules of conduct against blatant
    cheating posts. I'd like to know your definition regarding the term 'spam'
    when it comes to newsgroups before I say anything about that. As for
    pirating posts, feel free to send me any message-id of posts that are giving
    instructions for how to pirate any software and I'll take care of those.

    John Eddy
    Microsoft Newsgroups Administrator
    John Eddy [MSFT], May 28, 2004
  12. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Consultant Guest

    he will be back on tuesday, as he has been on the family road trip for 2
    i'll let him know you were concerned.
    Consultant, May 28, 2004
  13. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Consultant Guest

    why do you have 2 first names?
    no, im not personally attacking you

    consultant contractor
    Consultant, May 28, 2004
  14. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Ken Briscoe Guest

    And that's where the problem starts, John. There *should* be rules of
    conduct regarding blatant cheating. Look, we're all smart enough to know
    that no matter what MS or anyone else does, there will always be
    braindumpers. But stifling their bragging (or suggestions to do it) is but
    one simple way to slow the onslaught of cert-devaluing cheaters. Or do you,
    a MS employee, not think that braindumping is cheating?
    While this wasn't directed at me, I do have to say that spammers aren't too
    numerous here anymore. There are occasional spams, but the only ones we've
    had in a while seem to have come from wongh, cobol, and his
    kin. And they've apparently been banned. For that, we all thank you and your
    fellow NG Admins. Spammers are but a minor problem we see here in mpce.mcse.
    Dumpers far outnumber spammers here. At least in my experience - and I'm
    here just about every day.
    Oh, I get it. With the billions of dollars MS pulls in every year, they're
    still more concerned with someone using a "free" copy of Windows XP than
    stopping the dumpers. Not to single you out or anything, because I know
    you're just doing your job, but why do you only care about being notified of
    piracy? You don't care to know that there seems to be suggestions to dump,
    people saying they've dumped, and people asking to BUY an MCSE in here just
    about *every day*?! That seems kind of out of whack. It's for this reason
    that I might never again take another MS exam. They're being devalued by
    certain individuals (and companies, too, for that matter), and MS doesn't
    seem to care. I do realize that piracy is a huge problem for MS - and other
    software companies - but why have no other NG Admins come here and asked for
    us to report any dumping posts? Leaves me with the impression that MS
    doesn't much care about the certificates, but rather, they certs are but
    another way for them to squeeze money out of the public.

    My .02
    Ken Briscoe, May 28, 2004
  15. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Ken Briscoe Guest

    I am glad he is not dead.
    Ken Briscoe, May 28, 2004
  16. So which poster do you think sets the bad example here, Jose or JaR? Got to
    give you some credit, though, as you did post both JaR's reply AND Jose's
    comment. While "personal attacks" are something I generally try to avoid
    (I'm not immune, but I do at least try to obfuscate or use humor) post like
    Jose's happen all the time in here, yet you seem to have made your original
    post in response to the group's flaming of such posts?

    Perhaps we could all take Microsoft's apparent stance on this and simply
    ignore brain dumpers and cheaters in the newsgroups. Or perhaps Microsoft
    should start listening to those who have earned their MS certs THE HARD
    (honest) WAY and show us that they intend to do something about restoring
    the value of certification.

    Unless you've been reading this group, ALL of this group, for several years,
    I would not be so quick to judge us. I'm not speaking of just the MCNGP,
    but of many times more people who agree with what we represent. Even if we
    can only convince one person to shun cheating and earn their certs (and many
    of us have done so for several posters) it's worth it, flaming or otherwise.
    I don't get this one... Neil gets a personal attack, even though he's one of
    the more restrained MCNGP'ers here, yet it appears that since you've
    included Kline's reply you're chastizing Kline?

    I really don't get this. Is this newsgroup supposed to resemble Mr. Roger's
    Neighborhood? Do you think that would reflect reality? Professionalism is
    one thing, but asking people to not post anything that might be construed as
    a personal attack is ridiculous.
    No newsgroups are immune from SPAM. Much like the supreme court justice
    (whose name eludes me at the moment) "I might not know how to define it, but
    I know it when I see it." SPAM is the least of our problems in posting in
    the group, but it can be a problem, specifically if it's brain dumping SPAM.
    Boot Camp SPAM is similarly generally unwelcome here. I realize that a lot
    of the SPAM does get removed, probably by MSFT employees such as yourself,
    yet quite a bit more seems to make it through anyway.
    I always send e-mails to but I'll start sending them to
    you if I can get more than the automated replies. It would be nice to know
    that someone is actually DOING something about my reports of piracy and

    MS letting us know that things are being done would do WONDERS for the
    morale of many of us in here.
    Let me ask you something... is it merely the profanity that some of us use
    from time to time (a.k.a. personal attacks) that bothers MSFT, or is there
    more to this? Are you actually getting complaints from brain dumpers? Do
    you, or anyone else at MSFT actually understand what it is we're trying to
    do here, or appreciate it at all?

    Fris "Proud Thug" bee®, MCNGP #13

    The MCNGP Team - We're here to help!

    =?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE?=, May 28, 2004
  17. John Eddy [MSFT]

    JaR Guest

    I'd call the postings today by Arnoud to every MS group I checked today
    'spam'. I'd call the seven MONTHS of daily turdlets promoting links to
    braindump sites from Msrs wongh, cobol, kellyme, et al 'spam'. What do you
    consider 'spam'? Jeez, they were not only spamming, but braindumpers as
    well, and it took seven MONTHS before anything happened! If indeed MS
    actually did ban examnotes, or they just lost interest.

    Pirates have been reported in the past for posting their crud in here, and
    MS (OK, not you personally) has done nothing! I personally reported one
    creep selling pirated MS and other's CD's in here to .
    Anything happen? Not that I know of. My e-mail wasn't even acknowledged.

    OK, so there's no rules of conduct against cheating. In other words
    Microsoft doesn't care that people cheat on their exams. MS allows the
    propagation of dumps and cheatsheets over it's own servers.

    Well I care that this policy has resulted in the fact that my certs are
    nearly worthless. Because of the cheating and dumping HR droids require
    an MCSE to answer phones on a tier 1 help desk. I care deeply that morons
    that can't find the microsoft learning site or google are getting the
    certifications that I worked so hard to aquire. And I find it horribly
    ironic that you feel the need to post your 'rules of conduct' in response
    to the folks in here that try to bring some sanity to this process. You
    bet, I freely admit that sometimes I can be profane. It ticks me off when
    I see these losers posting in here. You bet, there have been times when
    the posts in here have gotten out of hand. Let's try to remember, however,
    that not all of the regulars in here are MCNGP, and not all of the
    abusive posts are made by members of the group. In fact, all the MCNGP is,
    if you look at it unemotionally, is a core of regular posters in here that
    have chosen to identify with a common name. We are not some dark cabal
    operating in the background to claim a 'fiefdom' on usenet.

    Over to you, John.

    J.R. Jones
    JaR, May 28, 2004
  18. I really don't understand you people at ms. Your certification
    programs have become worthless, and you do nothing about it. You [ms]
    seem quite happy to churn out as many useless mcp's as possible.
    Quantify before quality may have helped the Soviet red army in WW2,
    but in following that approach today, you [ms] are only helping your

    The IT industry does not need anymore idiots; you have already helped
    produced enough of them - thank you.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 28, 2004
  19. John Eddy [MSFT]

    Neil Guest

    I'm a bit confused by this myself. Is this to point out that I was flamed
    (and BTW, I did not complain to you about this did I?) or that Kline
    flamed a flamer?

    Oh, and while it is not MS policy for the _newsgroups_ that braindumpers
    and cheaters are bad, they do (at least in print) oppose it on thier web
    pages. To summarise, when it comes to braindumping "it's ok, maybe, but
    not really, we'll get back to you..."

    Look, I don't want to get on the bad side of anyone at MS as MS has put
    bread on my table for 20 years, but this is a bit frustrating. As Fris
    pointed out, if you will handle the tctips line for us I would love to
    send you the bunch to take care of and give 'em a good spanking
    (officially) while you're at it. But it seemed to me that you were more
    concerned with software piracy, not exam piracy. If this is not the case
    I appologise. If it is the case, why is the one more important than the

    I will tone down my rhetoric for a while and play nice in the sand box,
    but I would really appreciate it if MS would do me a favour since we are
    on the subject. since we can NOT stop posters from the open USENET world
    or the MS provided web interface from openly and publicly condoning,
    supporting, and profiting from cheating/braindumping, could MS at least
    give us the leaway to flame those they can't

    I know it's just your job John and there is probably not much you can do
    for me so have a great long weekend and if you could pass our sentiments
    along I would appreciate it...
    Neil, May 28, 2004
  20. Or perhaps Microsoft
    Here is a real good example of how much ms regard their 'premium'
    developer certification


    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 28, 2004
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