Re: Peterson's Death Sentence

Discussion in 'Linux Networking' started by Aunty Kreist, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. But since such a condition is not conscious, that opinion is not
    scientifically justifiable. Its just a well that's what I believe for no
    good reason.

    Sure I agree, that deciding just when an object is first conscious is
    almost impossible, but it aint when an egg is just fertilised. Its
    certainly after a few months minimum though.

    And, sure, current science alone, is not enough to dictate all moral
    issues like this, but its a no brainer for the first months of
    conception. A foetus is just an amorphous blob of chemicals, and that's
    all the respect it deservers. Where is the dividing line between 9
    months and 2 months? I don't know, and it doesn't matter if one wants to
    restrict to prior to two months.

    If you can give an actual *argument* as to why a non conscious amorphous
    blob of chemicals should be given rights that a conscious blob of
    chemicals is given, lets hear it. Hint: I don't take kindly to "gods
    divine will" bullshit.

    Kevin Aylward

    http://www.anasoft.co.uk
    SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
    Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
    Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
     
    Kevin Aylward, Jan 20, 2005
    #21
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  2. Aunty Kreist

    David Guest

    A question to ponder!

    Is it not murder to kill the one who murdered? Wait it must not be
    because some judge or jury said he was guilty. If I remember the good book
    says "Thou shall not kill" But than again I do not have to answer to his
    murder in the long run
     
    David, Jan 20, 2005
    #22
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  3. Aunty Kreist

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    Then, with the inevitable advances in medical technology one would
    expect, that "time of survival" will be pushed closer and closer to
    the time of conception until it will be possible to bring a fertilized
    egg to term out of the womb. If such is the case, then you argue that
    life begins at conception but that we can't currently support it
    ex-utero that early?
     
    John Fields, Jan 20, 2005
    #23
  4. Aunty Kreist

    John Fields Guest

     
    John Fields, Jan 20, 2005
    #24
  5. That's not really the question.
    It is 'when is it a human life'.
    My view is when it exceeds the neural complexity of the smatest ape.


    --
    Dirk

    The Consensus:-
    The political party for the new millenium
    http://www.theconsensus.org
     
    Dirk Bruere at Neopax, Jan 20, 2005
    #25
  6. Aunty Kreist

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    The point is not whether it's conscious or not, (although it could be
    argued that our conception of "consciousness" isn't completely
    accurate) it's that it's alive and has a goal, that goal being to
    become what we call conscious.
    ---
    ---
    If you don't know when, you can't say not when.\
    ---
    ---
    Well, Kevin, it _is_ alive, so killing it's a _little_ different than
    throwing your chemistry set away.
    ---
    ---
    For me, there _is_ no dividing line. If it's alive it won't die by
    _my_ hand; YMMV
    ---
    ---
    Because it's as helpless as a new-born baby?
    See argument, above, about consciousness.
    ---
    ---
    Nor do they take kindly to yours, I'm sure!

    Remeber this oldie? :

    Kevin: God is dead.
    God: Kevin is dead.

    :)
     
    John Fields, Jan 20, 2005
    #26
  7. Given that the definition of "murder" is the unlawful taking of
    life....

    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=murder&x=0&y=0

    1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice
    aforethought
    Right, because that is, by definition, lawful.
    Actually, that's a translation error. It's closer to "thou shalt not
    murder".
    Once you get your English straight, perhaps you might want to try
    logic.
     
    Keith Williams, Jan 20, 2005
    #27
  8. I read in sci.electronics.design that John Fields <[email protected]
    The parasitic stage is succeeded by the commensal stage (eating the same
    food) and that, if you are lucky, is succeeded by the symbiotic stage
    (living together for mutual advantage).
     
    John Woodgate, Jan 20, 2005
    #28
  9. I read in sci.electronics.design that John Fields <[email protected]
    Given enough money, this could probably be done now.
    LIFE begins at conception. That isn't the point, IMHO. It's difficult to
    argue that an unimplanted foetus has the full panoply of human rights.

    'Human rights' is not a concept within science, so science (rational
    deduction) can't provide a solution.

    It's a 'line-drawing' situation, and people can NEVER agree where to
    draw the line. One might be bitterly opposed to abortion on demand until
    a daughter is pregnant.
     
    John Woodgate, Jan 20, 2005
    #29
  10. I read in sci.electronics.design that John Fields <[email protected]
    Some people will confess to anything, even without the bright lights and
    rubber hoses. IMHO, anyone who kills a human is insane at that time, and
    does not have the same sort of 'mens rea' as a robber or other criminal.
     
    John Woodgate, Jan 20, 2005
    #30
  11. So it does, but it also has lots of casualty lists.
     
    John Woodgate, Jan 20, 2005
    #31
  12. Aunty Kreist

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    If the fertilized egg will develop into a monkey, then it's a monkey
    life pushing it.

    If the fertilized egg will develop into a human, then it's a human
    life pushing it.
     
    John Fields, Jan 20, 2005
    #32
  13. So? Potential is not actuality.
    Additionally, Rights are social construct
    http://www.theconsensus.org/uk/principia/judicial/index.html

    --
    Dirk

    The Consensus:-
    The political party for the new millenium
    http://www.theconsensus.org
     
    Dirk Bruere at Neopax, Jan 20, 2005
    #33
  14. And for some guys even more... :)


    --

    Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez
    Director Tecnico de bgSEC

    bgSEC Seguridad y Consultoria de Sistemas Informaticos
    http://www.bgsec.com
    ESPAÑA

    The only people for me are the mad ones -- the ones who are mad to live,
    mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time,
    the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn
    like fabulous yellow Roman candles.
    -- Jack Kerouac, "On the Road"
     
    Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez, Jan 20, 2005
    #34
  15. Aunty Kreist

    Aunty Kreist Guest

    Agreed. :)
     
    Aunty Kreist, Jan 20, 2005
    #35
  16. Aunty Kreist

    Aunty Kreist Guest

    It's crossposted because John Fields is trolling our group with preachy
    Christian rants. Then, when he's posting from your group, he states the
    opposite of what he's claimed here, so you guys won't think he's nuts. We're
    just doing you the service of showing you all what a nutjob Fields is.
     
    Aunty Kreist, Jan 20, 2005
    #36
  17. Aunty Kreist

    Aunty Kreist Guest

    No kidding, look at you.

    Are you gonna preach about how God is the creator of the Universe again?

     
    Aunty Kreist, Jan 20, 2005
    #37
  18. Aunty Kreist

    Aunty Kreist Guest

    John has this habit of informing people what they believe. It's very kind of
    him.
     
    Aunty Kreist, Jan 20, 2005
    #38
  19. Aunty Kreist

    Aunty Kreist Guest

    The only feasable thing I can come up with is that the fetus is given rights
    ( as in the Peterson case) when the parent's choice of whether or not to
    have the child is forcibly taken away from them. If Lacy had chosen to
    abort, the fetus wouldn't have any rights. Since that decision was forcibly
    taken from her, the fetus qualifies as having rights.
     
    Aunty Kreist, Jan 20, 2005
    #39
  20. Talking seriously, death penalty makes USA a third-world country.
    Until you stop *murdering* people that way no one will consider
    USA a civilizated country.


    --

    Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez
    Director Tecnico de bgSEC

    bgSEC Seguridad y Consultoria de Sistemas Informaticos
    http://www.bgsec.com
    ESPAÑA

    The only people for me are the mad ones -- the ones who are mad to live,
    mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time,
    the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn
    like fabulous yellow Roman candles.
    -- Jack Kerouac, "On the Road"
     
    Jose Maria Lopez Hernandez, Jan 20, 2005
    #40
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