Quality of MCSEs

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by Ben Robinson, Jul 3, 2003.

  1. Ben Robinson

    Ben Robinson Guest

    OK, I know the MCSE is not the most respected of accreditations, but lately
    the people coming through my door for interview are getting worse and worse
    by the day. I would have thought that the UKs IT recession would mean there
    were a plethora of able candidates to choose from, but it seems there's just
    a lot more dross on the market to wade through, and it's as hard as it ever
    was to find good people.

    Moan over...I am TDA for a large project looking to deliver MS enterprise
    solutions and, whilst I do not believe the MCSE is the be all and end all, I
    do look at it as a *guideline* to ability, to be backed up by relevant
    consulting experience and evident skill in interview. However, this is where
    I repeatedly find candidates lacking; MCSE and multiple MCPs look great on
    paper but these people often fail the most simple architecture questions and
    do not have the right approach for consulting work.

    What other accreditations do people believe are a reasonable pointer for
    consultancy skills, rather than support type skills (which the MCSE always
    seems to indicate)? Would it not be prudent for MS to introduce a more
    consultancy\architecture orientated curriculum and exams, and admit that the
    MCSE is really geared more towards people training for support roles?

    Thoughts welcome

    Ben
     
    Ben Robinson, Jul 3, 2003
    #1
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  2. Ben Robinson

    Kerry Hoskin Guest

    for consultancy skills I'd looked towards maybe Prince2 Project Management
    accreditations

    Kerry

    Kerry Hoskin
    PC Network Manager
    Plymouth Marine Laboratory
     
    Kerry Hoskin, Jul 3, 2003
    #2
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  3. Ben Robinson

    billyw Guest

    the simple way i would put it is that, mainly, the MCSE is a reactive
    certification
    project management et-al should, if handled correctly be a pro active role.
    The trouble with the term consultant can have quite a few meanings.
    One of the best project managers i've come across wasn't that strong on the
    technology, but had a great feel for what needed to be done and what was
    going to happen. strategic thinkers are few and far between, bearing in mind
    that many companies operate on a "only as good as you last f***-up" policy.
    is it any surprise that people get into that mode..
     
    billyw, Jul 3, 2003
    #3
  4. [snip]

    Any new certification only separates the good from the bad for the amount of
    time it takes the IT peanut gallery to figure out how to pass the tests.
    Once that happens, there is nothing but a flood of certified worthlessness.
    The MCSE has been around so long, it's value just by itself is now
    meaningless. A degree and/or years of experience are much better indicators
    of value. The worthlessness of the IT peanut gallery are nearly always
    weeded out during four years of college courses, and very rarely can they
    hold a job with the same company for any significant amount of time. When
    you find a person who is educated and experienced, then the certification
    shows they also know the skills you need.

    Of course there always is the random diamond in the rough, the great
    employee who never had the chance to go to college, and is somehow always
    the "victim" of the economy such that he can't stay with a company for a
    significant amount of time. You just have to ask yourself, do you have time
    during your day to go looking for diamonds in the rough?

    --
    Politician Spock
    MCSA, CCEA, MCNGP #15
    The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    You assume all risk for your use. Not responsible for your inability to
    understand logic, ambiguous references, sarcasm, the imaginary gnomes
    living in my garden, or William Shatner's acting.
    © 2003 Star Trek Federation. All rights reserved.
     
    Politician Spock, Jul 3, 2003
    #4
  5. Ben Robinson

    Consultant Guest

    this is his attempt at braindumping candidate selection
     
    Consultant, Jul 7, 2003
    #5
  6. Ben Robinson

    Paul Lynch Guest

    There's a beautiful, almost Kafka-esque irony in that situation if you
    think about it....

    Employer seeking to take shortcuts on selection process ends up
    employing candidate who took shortcuts in certification process....
    repeat until fade..

    Paul
     
    Paul Lynch, Jul 7, 2003
    #6
  7. Ben Robinson

    Consultant Guest

    indeed

     
    Consultant, Jul 7, 2003
    #7
  8. Ben Robinson

    cyberpunk Guest

    posts like the original make me want to turn in my MCSE, my 8 years
    experience and get into management to put moron managers like this out
    of a job. As a techie I've been screaming for years that I would make
    a good manager, mainly due to my "been there, done that" attitude,
    obviously this guys is just a 4 year BA management flunky right out of
    a dilbert strip. This is what worries me about IT, and why I'm
    considering getting out of it. Everyone wants to be "wronged" in some
    way so that they can have an excuse to skimp, cut corners, empty
    promises etc. It happens all the way from the CIO's to the Paper
    MCP's.

    <RANT OVER>

    Good luck finding a qualified candidate, you have joined the masses
    that is looking for someone that doesn't exist. I can tell from your
    tone that your are expecting a CCIE, PMI, MCSE2004 guy to walk in and
    kiss your feet because you offered him 45k for an 6month gig migrating
    W95 desktops to w2k, which incidentally YOUR boss tasked you with 2
    years ago and you are just now getting around to it because you
    couldn't find qualified people to do the work. Whatever happened to
    employers looking for a good "person" and helping him to grow into the
    employee you so desire. True, employees need to understand that their
    first job should not be as CIO and that they will be perhaps
    "underpaid" by their account, but with demonstrated moves to help them
    grow and move up they should be more than content.

    <OK, RANT IS NOW OVER>

    J
    MCSE, CCA, BA, 8yrs
     
    cyberpunk, Jul 8, 2003
    #8
  9. Ben Robinson

    billyw Guest

    your rant show's your not management material. personally i despise most
    managers, usually they are just someone's friend, not there because they are
    good or anything.
    i think u need to find a friend..
     
    billyw, Jul 8, 2003
    #9
  10. Ben Robinson

    Consultant Guest

    i like your attitude young man



     
    Consultant, Jul 8, 2003
    #10
  11. Ben Robinson

    Ben Robinson Guest

    If that's all it takes to make you quit, then maybe you're not right for
    that sort of role? Anyway, I did not imply I was a manager, as I am not. And
    we're not looking for permanent staff, so the rules are somewhat different.
    I am sure your open minded view will serve well at keeping you in the same
    dead-end position for 8 more years :)

    Ben
     
    Ben Robinson, Jul 9, 2003
    #11
  12. Ben Robinson

    cyberpunk Guest

    Did you even read my post, or just skim it and comment on it. First
    off, my 8 yrs have been spent at some of the largest companies in the
    country, mainly as a consultant, which gives me the unique experience
    of seeing what all the companies do right and oh so wrong, all without
    it affecting me in any way. I've been onsite at companies that you
    couldn't pay me enough to work for, and I've been onsite at companies
    that I would take a paycut just to work for. Open minded? What about
    my post seems closed minded to you? I was simply commenting on the
    language and tone that you used to describe your hiring woes. My
    current position is far from dead end, and I am continuing to grow
    professionally through both work experience and higher education.

    While you did not state you are a manager, I thought it was assumed
    since you were looking at and interviewing candidates, typically
    clerks do not handle interviews, but perhaps in your company that is
    the way it is done, if they have non-managers hiring people how to
    they expect to build a proper team environment? Good Luck!

    J
     
    cyberpunk, Jul 9, 2003
    #12
  13. Ben Robinson

    Neonrh Guest

    All of you have good points but one thing bugs me. I've gone through
    quite a few resumes, interviewed quite a few people and have had much
    frustration myself. What I think Ben may be pointing to is what I call
    "padding" of resumes. So many times these people list having
    experience with NT Server, switches, routers, etc but when you ask for
    details, you find out that someone built the server and configured the
    switches/routers for them prior to install and that they really know
    crap about any of them. I even asked this guy what the difference was
    between a switch and a hub.. and all I saw was a blank stare. Same
    thing when I asked him what routing protocols he's worked with. But
    yet in my experience over 75% of the resumes were padded. It's tough
    to wade through what is really experience. This one guy was sent out
    to do remote office installs and set up the network. Seemed like great
    experience to me but he couldn't do any of the real work himself. Just
    my 2 cents.
     
    Neonrh, Jul 9, 2003
    #13
  14. Ben Robinson

    billyw Guest

    this happens all the time and recruitment consultants encourage it, e.g "can
    you point at a mac" .. "yes" ... "great so u are an expert in appletalk"..
    it happens, believe me...
     
    billyw, Jul 9, 2003
    #14
  15. Ben Robinson

    Consultant Guest

    isn't mac a big rig?


     
    Consultant, Jul 9, 2003
    #15
  16. Ben Robinson

    billyw Guest

    if you can point at a rig your then an expert in product delivery
     
    billyw, Jul 9, 2003
    #16
  17. Ben Robinson

    Paul Lynch Guest

    Ben,

    When dealing with various agencies in the UK in the past I've found
    that the following piece of information is invaluable.....

    They are lying, cheating scum who would say or do anything to make
    their bonus targets for the month.

    No, this isn't a rant, but a careful scientific observation based on
    factual analysis.....

    Paul
     
    Paul Lynch, Jul 10, 2003
    #17
  18. Ben Robinson

    Consultant Guest

    i have come to this conclusion about us firms also. it's a small, small
    world
     
    Consultant, Jul 10, 2003
    #18
  19. Ben Robinson

    Ben Robinson Guest

    I stated I was the Technical Design Authority. As for the rest, I was being
    sardonic, due to the content of your own post.

    Ben
     
    Ben Robinson, Jul 11, 2003
    #19
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