Problematic rural broadband connection

Discussion in 'Broadband' started by JohnDavidson, Mar 4, 2015.

  1. JohnDavidson

    Graham J Guest

    chris wrote:

    As far as the measured loss for the distance is concerned this is
    consistent with the thicker cable - in that you are lucky.

    Given that Openreach have actually confirmed the sources of REIN your
    next step would be a complaint via the RA (Radiocommmunications Agency).
    Certainly in the case of the LED shaving light it would seem that it
    does not meet European Certification rules about RFI so either that
    particular device is faulty, or the whole batch is. In the first case
    the manufacturer should replace it; in the second their whole production
    should be impounded.

    The electric fence is more of a problem, since the REIN is almost
    certainly caused by arcing to ground somewhere along the length of the
    fence wire; rather than the actual energiser itself. But the RA can
    take action against the user where it is the use of the equipment that
    causes interference. For example, an amateur radio transmitter may be
    perfectly capable of meeting the requirements for RFI, but if connected
    to an inappropriate antenna or operated by somebody without the
    appropriate license then the RA can take action which I think would
    include impounding the equipment.

    So there's lots more you could do ...
    Graham J, Mar 12, 2015
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  2. JohnDavidson

    chris Guest

    Answering your comments in turn:-

    You have to be lucky, occasionally

    Yes, I agree which is why I wrote to the Radio Commmunications Agency,
    letter returned 6 weeks later not known.
    Found out that RA had been subsumed into the dynamic organisation, Ofcom

    Wrote to Ofcom.. only interested if the interference is affecting
    emergency services.

    It appears that is illegal to import non-compliant equipment, but not to
    operate it. It is also appears not illegal to produce interference
    through faulty installations.
    Interestingly GCHQ are getting concerned about power line network
    adapters and I see Ofcom has just closed consultation on proposed

    Anyway the LED shaving mirror had a CE (Chinese Export <grin>) mark,
    apparently bought off Amazon.

    The electric fence problem is due to inappropriate installation for the

    His original fence energizer was not working properly (probably due to
    the poor installation) so "Farmer Giles" bought a bigger, mains
    powered energizer (3.5 joule).
    The electric fence consists of simple horse fencing tape and electric
    string on temporary plastic fence stakes.
    It is not the correct material (wire) for the size of energizer, hence
    it breaks down causing internal arcing.
    This would be illegal in New Zealand

    A farmer friend runs a 3.5 joule energizer around a 140 acre farm, using
    galvanised wire, on permanent stakes, with insulators around
    gateways,etc. No problem at all.

    The RA does not exist and Ofcom is not interested.

    Always interested in further suggestions - FTTP? if the bank balance
    would stretch

    chris, Mar 13, 2015
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  3. JohnDavidson

    Graham J Guest

    chris wrote:

    Thanks for bringing us up-to-date with the RA and OfCom. It's a long
    while since I took my RAE and knew about these things!

    Have you tried asking the emergency services whether they have been
    Graham J, Mar 13, 2015
  4. JohnDavidson

    Kraftee Guest

    Simple..low/no resistance to earth when it's wet
    It will never happen as there is already laws in place if there is an
    interference source which is blocking reception of any public broadcast
    (remembering that DSL is not a protected service) and secondly how could you
    detect if any of your own electricity driven devices are causing a strong
    enough signal to affect anybody else? I have only found one electric fence
    which was causing a problem against many multiples of 10 which were caused
    by just general house hold equipment, well...only if you accept a
    Jacuzzi/hot tub in that group as well.

    You can stand underneath ANY fluorescent light fitting and pick up a strong
    radio signal but that doesn't mean that it is causing interference, you can
    stand outside many (if not all) public houses and once again pick up fairly
    strong signals but here again it doesn't mean it's causing any problems.

    If you are so sure about your local farmers' electric fence causing a
    problem tune around the AM band and see if it is causing problems with any
    broadcasters, if it is then go to OFCOM (and pay) to get them to investigate
    but I'll lay odds that that fence may be part of the problem but not all.
    Kraftee, Mar 14, 2015
  5. JohnDavidson

    Kraftee Guest

    Sorry don't exist any more, please try and keep up to speed when you are
    giving out advice.

    As for confirming the source how would the end user know as it is against
    the law for Openreach to inform the end user.

    Also as already posted DSL is NOT a protected service so the powers that be
    would not be interested. Now if it was wiping out Radio 4 or the like, that
    is another matter
    Kraftee, Mar 14, 2015
  6. JohnDavidson

    chris Guest

    On 14/03/15 21:33, Kraftee wrote:

    Comments interleaved

    Not that simple I think. It is due, in this instance, to the electric
    fence material being incapable of carrying the energy, so it breaks
    down. It is only just "horse electric tape" which is only suitable for
    low powered (battery powered) energisers. Rain adds to the tape
    conductivity, thus reduces errors

    See this article and look for a posting by "ProfessorYaffle" (5th posting)

    Received confirmation that there will be a feature on REIN in today's
    programme of You & Yours, BBC Radio 4 between 12:15 and 12:55

    This is the point .. Government wants to deliver its services over
    broadband, therefore DSL must become a protected service.
    But if it is found that you are producing REIN, which is affecting other
    peoples broadband, then BT or the equivalent should have the authority
    to make you correct the situation by either ceasing to use the faulty
    equipment or correcting the installation. Not dis-similar to BBC's
    authority and broadcast radio.

    About 30 properties are on the telephone cable which passes the source.
    I know of two other properties, at different ends of the 30 properties,
    see the errors
    The source has been identified as an electric fence. the OpenReach tech
    (who found both the LED REIN source and this) called from site and
    arranged to switch off the electric fence energiser. Errors dropped
    from some 3000+ per hour down to less than 50 or so. The OpenReach Tech
    then arranged for the farmer to try his older fence energiser (less
    powerful and considered not working by the farmer). The errors climbed
    up to around 1000 per hour, indicating that it was not the energiser but
    the electric fence installation.

    Having observed the rain effect on REIN, the OpenReach Tech discussed
    the problem with us. He had observed that the energiser (3.5joule
    biggeee) earth consisted of a single stake drive only a short distance
    into the ground in an area of woodland - which was dry due to tree cover
    and the trees drying the ground. Best practice for this sized energiser
    is a minimum of three earth stakes driven more than 0.5 metre into the
    ground in a damp area, linked with heavy duty conductor. The OpenReach
    Tech sourced the required material and returned some days later and
    installed the new earth system which the farmer connected up. The result
    was no difference to REIN.

    The errors we see are at the DSL level, with the 2Wire router reporting
    them as CRCs at the DSL SuperFrame Block level. Naturally there are ATM
    Cell Header errors which run at between 75% to 90% of the Uncorrectable
    SuperFrame Block Errors

    I confirm your other posting, in that the OpenReach Tech, refused to
    disclose the location of the source of REIN. I had to carry out a
    search for a local electric fence installation, which fitted with the
    information I had gleaned, and which a radio tuned to AM 612Khz showed
    as dirty - not much of a search, given the noise signal level.

    Agreed, but it depends on the frequency and the power, as to whether
    it causes a problem.

    They are unable to investigate ... not our problem!!! I understand the
    BBC is responsible for REIN detection if it affects broadcast radio.

    It is part of the problem generally running up around 100,000 errors in
    24 hours in dry conditions, but there are some days when the errors
    count is up around 300,000 with a peak of 600,000, which possible
    another source.

    Also locally, but not affecting me, is a photovoltaic solar panel
    installation, which is a pretty good REINer. I found out about this,
    in discussion with a friend. The over night SNR near the solar panel
    installation, was around 16+dB with the daytime SNR down around 3dB -
    the inverse of normal. Funnily, they had even observed that the
    day/night ratio varied throughout the year, with long nights during the
    winter, but they had not linked it with solar panels. The difference in
    possible sync speed, day to night, was 2.5mbps to nearly 6mbps on ADSL2.

    I think REIN is much more common, than people realise.
    chris, Mar 16, 2015
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