Hello all, I'm tossing around the idea of getting some MS certifications, and really like the looks of the MCAD and MCSD certs. The only problem is, I do not really have a solid programming background and would more or less be starting fresh. Let me clarify a bit more, since I don't want you guys to assume I'm a total noob I've been working in the industry for nearly 8yrs, but for the past 7yrs the main focus of my job has been on Linux web servers. I have also overseen development of a number of Perl & PHP web applications, although I have never taken on the coding of these applications myself. The main focus of my work on these Perl/PHP/MySQL-based projects was coming up with the initial concept, interface design (using HTML, XTHML, CSS, etc..), install & implementation, and testing and administration. I can certainly work my way around code, but it has never been in my best interest to take on the coding simply because of the learning curve involved, and financial and time factors involved. From the looks of the side-by-side comparison of MCAD vs. MCSD, it appears MCAD would be a bit more friendly to the novice programmer. Where MCSD appers to be a quite in-depth certification. So I have a few questions that I'm hoping I can get some advice on: 1. With my level of programming experience (which is basically zero in the MS world), can anyone suggest a series of books to start out with? I've looked on Amazon, and you can find "Beginner's guide to VB.NET" and "Beginner's guide to C# .NET" until your eyes bleed from looking at all the search results. But I have no idea which route to take in starting out. 2. Would you guys feel I'm reaching a bit too high in thinking of acquiring one of these certifications? I realize I do not have a Comp Sci degree, nor do I have a solid programming background. However, I am finishing up my IT degree right now, and have a real desire to learn application development. I guess everyone has to start somewhere when they decide to acquire these certifications -- and not everyone has had the advantage of being taught on the job. So I'm really looking for advice on which path to start out with to gain the pre-requesite knowledge. 3. I know that bricks and morter instruction courses can cost big bucks. But I have always absorbed information much better when learning it in a classroom environment. So I'm looking for some advice on people's take on the instruction course route vs. self-teaching from books? I'll end my long-winded plea for help here Any advice you guys can give on any of this would be greatly appreciated! Sincerely, Kevin G.
Hi Kevin, basically zero in the MS world), can anyone suggest a series of books to start out with? I've looked on Amazon, and you can find "Beginner's guide to VB.NET" and "Beginner's guide to C# ..NET" until your eyes bleed from looking at all the search results. But I have no idea which route to take in starting out. Any beginner books should be alright. Probably what you're confused right now is basically which languages (C# or VB.NET) should you acquired right now ? Any of them (C# or VB.NET) should be alright, if you have some Java or C++ programming background, then C# would be quite similar to it. I would recommended C# to be your programming language if you have some background in Java or C++. You will need to start acquire the MCAD certification first. From your current background, the 70-315 (Developing Web Apps with C#) will be a good start for you since you have a web experience background in PHP before. thinking of acquiring one of these certifications? I realize I do not have a Comp Sci degree, nor do I have a solid programming background. However, I am finishing up my IT degree right now, and have a real desire to learn application development. Nope. Don't be despair, as there is no word as "too late" in order to learn anything. But obviously you need to be realistic with your current skills. Learn the Certification step-by-step from ground up and you will be amazed by how much skills that you can acquire through your high desire of learning. can cost big bucks. But I have always absorbed information much better when learning it in a classroom environment. So I'm looking for some advice on people's take on the instruction course route vs. self-teaching from books? Taking a course should be better if you have enough resources and time. For me, i learn the 70-315 test by myself, mostly by reading books, a lot of MSDN, reading newsgroup and consider it self-taught. Although i am employed currently, i am not using all aspects in ASP.NET and only use thoroughly ADO.NET. Hope you're quite satisfy with my answer and good luck ... Rgrds, hadi
Hello Hadi, Thanks so much for the reply -- very much appreciated. Actually, you did hit the nail on the head with my first level of confusion -- whether to focus on VB or C#. I actually think I'm going the VB route, because from what I've been reading, Visual Basic .NET might be a little easier for the inexperienced programmer to pick up. Plus, I was able to find a boatload of more books on VB at my local discount bookstore We have a place here localled called "Ollie's Bargain Outlet" -- which is a closeout store, that surprisingly has a large selection of computer books. Many of the books are Microsoft Press books that are usually one edition old. So today I took a trek down to this place, and picked up a bunch of books ranging from VB.NET, to C#, to ADO.NET, to ASP.NET, to the .NET framework in general. Most of their books range from $5.99 to a max of $7.99, which is outrageously cheap. Most of the books have a jacket price of $49.99 - $79.99. But, like I said they are usually at least one edition old, and I'm sure this place buys in bulk from old MS Press overstock. But nevertheless, it's a good way to get involved without spending a fortune on books. The one I'm going to start with is the VB.NET step by step book: http://tinyurl.com/6d9fb (and yes, I do have a licensed copy of Visual Studio .NET 2003) Then I have about 2 or 3 other VB.NET books that get a bit more complex. Then I'll probably jump into ASP.NET. Let me ask you this.... if I do start my self-teachings with VB.NET, should I even bother to pick up ANY C# books? I know you can selectively take the exams you want to acquire your MCAD, so I'm guessing you can probably get away with one or the other, and not necessarily both. I mean, I'll probably eventually get into some C#, but I don't want to go overboard right away. Anymore advice on this topic would be appreciated. Thanks again, KG
Hi Kevin, Just to correct a common misconception: VB.NET and C# are actually the same language. Neither is more difficult to learn than the other if this is your first programming language. With the 2005 releases, they way in which both VB.NET and C# code is actually written is almost indistinguishable. You may wish to learn C# if you want to be paid more. Most employers seem to think that C# code is worth more. You may prefer VB.NET if you are a C++ or C coder. The syntax is different and so you won't confuse yourself. Learn some C++ anyway, you will need it. regards,
Hi Nick, Thanks for the clarification on this -- I'm still learning as I go with this stuff, so half of what I'm asking might sound ridiculous Oddly enough, I was probably on the path to being fully immersed in MS servers and programming about 7yrs ago. But as I got more heavily involved with web hosting and web design, Linux naturally took over because of stability. I used to run NT 4.0 servers with IIS, and was starting to tinker with programming back in those days, but my needs could not be met with the instability of using MS products on the web back at that time. So now here I am, back full circle returning to Microsoft products Really it comes down to me leaving my own business, and returning to the workforce -- and I do need the skillset, and credentials to look marketable for potential employers. I'm not at all interested in being a network admin, so MCSE really isn't for me. But development does interest me a great deal, so MCAD and MCSD seem to be a much better fit. I figure to go with MCAD first, since MCSD seems a lot more intense. But again, I could be completely wrong with this. My understanding is that if you acquire your MCSD, you also acquire your MCAD since it has the same core requirements. Is this correct? Also, for someone at my beginner's level, is it crazy to even think about MCSD over MCAD? The only reason I was kind of thinking that might be a better option is because of the dual certification that one would have with MCSD. And since I'm going to be reading my face off anyway, I figure why not focus on the certification that will give me both in one shot? Any advice on this? Kevin
<snip> With some planning the MSCD.NET is simply a natural progression after the MCAD. You just have to make sure that you take 70-3(10|20) (i.e. 70-310 or 70-320) as one of the first three. As you have a Web Development background you should probably start with 70-3(05|15). I used the Kalani (reading is not enough - do the examples) which was sufficient in combination with http://msdn.microsoft.com MCAD/MCSD Training Guide (70-315): Developing and Implementing Web Applications with Visual C# and Visual Studio.NET by Amit Kalani http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789728222 You could try 70-3(10|20) second - however if you plan to take 70-3(06|16) as your MCAD elective (and it happens a MCSD.NET core) then you should take 70-3(06|16) now. MCAD/MCSD Training Guide (70-320): Developing XML Web Services and Server Components with Visual C# .NET and the ..NET Framework by Amit Kalani http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789728249 (you'll have to supplement this one with a more up to date book - preferably something that covers WSE 2.0) MCAD/MCSD Training Guide (70-316): Developing and Implementing Windows-Based Applications with Visual C# and Visual Studio.NET by Amit Kalani http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789728230 Third exam If you haven't taken 70-3(10|20) yet, take it now! If you already have it, you could take an elective (other than 70-3(06|16); the standard one is 70-229 - However SQL Server 2000 is getting a bit long in the tooth and a SQL Server 2005 Exam seems far off - that's why I choose 70-340 (.NET Security) as an MCSD.NET elective (also available as an MCAD elective). After number three you're an MCAD. Number four: 70-316 if you haven't taken it yet, take it now! (core requirement) otherwise its time for your elective (70-229, 70-3(30|40), etc.). Number five: 70-300 Now you're and MCSD.NET You can also find more info in some older postings http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm= http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&th=9a15d52164369e57&rnum=2 But one thing does make me curious. Why would someone with a LAMP background opt for an MS certification? I'd figure anybody from that area would be more likely to gravitate to a Sun certification. http://suned.sun.com/US/catalog/courses/CX-310-035.html http://suned.sun.com/US/catalog/courses/CX-310-081.html http://suned.sun.com/US/catalog/courses/CX-310-090.html http://suned.sun.com/US/catalog/courses/CX-310-220.html http://suned.sun.com/US/catalog/courses/CX-310-051.html http://suned.sun.com/US/catalog/courses/CX-310-300A.html http://suned.sun.com/US/catalog/courses/CX-310-061.html
Hello Kevin G If you want to get started on MS Programming concepts, specifically .NET, then I suggest a great book for you would be "An Introduction to programming using Visual Basic.NET - Fith Edition by David I. Schneider" The ISBN is 0-13-030657-6. As I am primarily into VB.NET I can't advise you on anything regarding C#.NET. The above book I've mentioned is a great book to start off with. But once you get more and more proficient with VB.NET, you'll find that this book suddenly becomes very limiting. It's excellent for a start, for creating those stepping stones on your path to VB.NET proficiency. Thereafter I suggest you get the following book which is more in depth and advanced: "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic.NET - By Francesco Balena" ISBN 0-7356-1375-3. This book is also available through Microsoft Press. Good luck Dirk
Hi Kevin, self-teachings with VB.NET, should I even bother to pick up ANY C# books? I know you can selectively take the exams you want to acquire your MCAD, so I'm guessing you can probably get away with one or the other, and not necessarily both. I mean, I'll probably eventually get into some C#, but I don't want to go overboard right away. Glad that currently you're on the route to the VB.NET . That should be alright. Doesn't matter whether you're using C# or VB.NET, you can create all ASP.NET Web Applications with equal functionality. For just a suggestion, i would highly recommended you not to spend more time in learning C#, but concentrate more on your time to learn all the aspects of ASP.NET such as ADO.NET , Web Service, XML, Deployment, etc.. Why bother learn 2 languages at the same time, while with only one language you can solve the problem ? Both have a good future. Outlet" -- which is a closeout store, that surprisingly has a large selection of computer books. Many of the books are Microsoft Press books that are usually one edition old. So today I took a trek down to this place, and picked up a bunch of books ranging from VB.NET, to C#, to ADO.NET, to ASP.NET, to the .NET framework in general. That's should be allright, i would highly recommended to go only one route, so if you have picked up VB.NET , then stick with it and concentrate on your time in delving more aspects of ASP.NET. Your path is already correct, first learn about VB.NET itself and then go one step higher to ASP.NET .. Be familiar with the VB.NET syntax and all aspects about OOP such as inheritance, delegates, etc. Enjoy your programming ! Regards, hadi
Hi Kevin, more intense. But again, I could be completely wrong with this. My understanding is that if you acquire your MCSD, you also acquire your MCAD since it has the same core requirements. Is this correct? Please see the details explanation by Mr. UAError. In a glance, MCAD is a first route down to the MCSD. So if you have acquaired MCSD, then everybody will know that you have passed MCAD. You need to pass 3 exams in order to pass the MCAD, then if you pass another 2 exams you will be qualified for MCSD . FYI if you add 2 more exam then you will be qualified for MCDBA . Yes, MCSD is an acronym for MS Certified Solutions Dev and MCAD is an acronym for MS Certified Application Dev. Solutions have greater aspects than just an application, and certainly needs additional skills such as Designing a Solution (exam 70-300). Don't be despair, learn all of those skills step by step and eventually you will know everything. I just let you know the "big" picture so that you know that MS skills are quite large. even think about MCSD over MCAD? The only reason I was kind of thinking that might be a better option is because of the dual certification that one would have with MCSD. And since I'm going to be reading my face off anyway, I figure why not focus on the certification that will give me both in one shot? I don't think you're crazy I even salute you, You're a man with a big dream , and not so many people have a big dream like you. Again it's ok to chase the MCSD, but i would highly recommended you to secure your MCAD first. Remember that some exams would be better to be attempted if you have a sufficient real-world experience. After you have secured your MCAD, try to work in ASP.NET applications real project, so that it will be a little bit easier to you in gaining your MCSD. Both Certifications can be obtained in one shot, as long as you have followed the exam pattern such as which one should be attempted first etc. Good luck to you .... Rgrds, hadi
Well, for the past 7yrs I have been self-employed providing web hosting, advertising brokering, selling a few custom PHP apps, etc.. And as mostly everyone I know that is self-employed online, times have been tough for the past couple of years -- so I've been kicking around the idea of getting back to the workplace and ditching the self-employment. Where I'm from (Northeast PA), about the only IT jobs that offer a decent salary are strictly Microsoft houses. These are generally Prudential, Met Life, and similar types of companies. Yes, I know they all most likely do have at least some scattered unix/linux architecture in place, but if I had to put a number on it I would probably say we're talking about 95% MS products in house. So that's basically what's leading me toward MS certifications, and my overall quest for knowledge Being that I'm kind of back on the job hunt, I need to kind of get with the times in terms of my skills, and also need to look good on paper as well. Also... thanks very much for the very detailed reply, I'm going to save this one to look back on after I've knocked out a book or two and feel comfortable enough to start testing. KG
the best advice that i could give someone like yourself is to feel very comfortable with either c# or vb.net before delving any deeper. c# and vb.net are very similar to each other, but a few things can't be accomplished in vb.net can be accomplished in c#. i love the .net books published by o'reilly: http://dotnet.oreilly.com/. someone without a formal education in programming would probably benefit more from either "learning c#" http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learncsharp/ or "learning visual basic .net" http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learnvbnet/ both the mcad and the mcsd.net both assume at least a year of experience (read: very well versed) with either c# or vb.net. good luck.
