Powersupply question- making sound want to replace,, desktop

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by KOS, Jul 21, 2010.

  1. KOS

    KOS Guest

    Hi, I have a desktop that is making a loud noise. coming from the
    powersupply. I want to replace the entire power supply, I have read
    that I should not do this as it is dangerous and I could get
    electrocuted... Is this true, is this something that lay people should
    not do? Thanks
    KOS
     
    KOS, Jul 21, 2010
    #1
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  2. KOS

    Paul Guest

    The output of the power supply, uses various low DC voltages. The wires
    have insulation on them. The connectors are designed with the intention
    of not letting you get in contact with electricity. Those factors are
    what helps with the safety.

    There would be more potential danger, if you removed the cover from
    the top of the ATX supply. If you leave the top cover in place, then
    there is little danger.

    This article will help with some background information.

    http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html

    Unplugging the computer from the wall, removes the input power.
    You wait 30 second after that, before working on the PC. That
    gives time for residual +5VSB to drain. At that point, it should
    then be safe to unplug the various cables. You do the same thing,
    before changing memory modules. Remove the power, then wait 30 seconds
    for the supply to drain, so none of the components inside are
    getting power any more.

    Before removing all the cabling, make diagrams and notes of where it
    all goes. It can be intimidating the first time you do it, and
    if you've made notes and diagrams in advance, that will make
    the job easier to complete.

    For more advice on power supplies, you need to tell us the
    make and model of computer, such as "HP Pavilion 1234". That
    way, we can get some idea what challenges you'll face.

    Supplies vary in quality, and the price charged, is not always
    a guarantee you're getting a good one. Finding customer
    reviews can help you find the good ones.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=17-165-023

    "I bought this to replace a customers power supply. It worked
    for 40 days. I guess you get what you pay for."

    Those are the kind of review comments, that can identify the less
    useful purchases.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 21, 2010
    #2
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  3. KOS

    gnu / linux Guest

    $ 50.00 & 4 screws - EASY job unless your failing unit is riveted in
    (Dell, HP) ...
     
    gnu / linux, Jul 22, 2010
    #3
  4. KOS

    KOS Guest

    Hi everybody

    I opened the case of my gateway- its an older gateway 2000E- i think
    thats what it is called, from the year 2000.. A desktop
    I took down the following # from the powersupply- Newton Power, S/N
    HXTO followed by a long number, Model NPS200P6

    output 5v 200w max

    so what kind of powersupply should I get, I just want to replace with
    what I have.
    Also, whats a good place to get one at a decent price
    thanks for all your help!!
     
    KOS, Jul 22, 2010
    #4
  5. KOS

    KOS Guest

    actually it is a gateway 500s
     
    KOS, Jul 22, 2010
    #5
  6. KOS

    Paul Guest

    http://www.howtofixcomputers.com/bb/sutra787467.html

    "It's standard ATX size, but it uses a mounting bracket attached
    to the front that slides into slots in the top of the case. It also rests
    on a couple lower supports, then is held in place by a lever. I removed the
    bracket (two screws) to see if the PS would be stable without it. No go.
    So I can't easily swap out with a standard ATX PS. I don't see a practical
    way to attach the bracket to another PS - don't particularly like the idea
    of drilling holes into it. I also considered just swapping out the case,
    but that gets more complicated."

    And looking at the description, your computer has a P4 processor, which means
    it'll have the standard ATX12V 2x2 cable for powering the processor (two
    yellow wires and two black wires).

    (You can find pictures of a lot of the connectors here if you need them.)
    http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html

    I'd take the side off the computer, and verify that is how it fastens. On
    the computer cases I have here, when I want to change a standard ATX supply,
    there are four screws that go through the back of the computer case, and
    screw into four holes on the fan-switch-cord side of the power supply. But
    your Gateway 500s, seems to use slides and a bracket and a locking lever.
    Probably intended for the factory assembly line, to take less time
    putting in the supply or something.

    Now, this picture, on the other hand, looks smaller than an ATX. You can
    see there are screw holes on the top of it, to hold a bracket. Perhaps
    the bracket is an attempt to adapt a smaller supply for a computer case
    that holds a standard ATX ?

    http://www.memoryworld.com/servlet/the-94/Gateway-Power-Supply-500S/Detail

    *******

    These are three documents I have copies of, that define ATX supplies.
    The 1.1 version still has -5V on it, but it is hard to tell whether computers
    of that era, actually have a need for -5V or not. They were supposed to
    stop using -5V, well before the 1.3 version of the ATX standard came out,
    but I probably have at least one computer here, that won't start unless
    a supply with a -5V wire on it, is connected.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20030424...org/developer/specs/atx/ATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf

    http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX12V_1_3dg.pdf

    http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf

    If I look at the "ATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf" spec for example, the
    dimensions of a standard ATX supply are listed on page 23. They're
    86mm high and 150mm wide. I measured a dead ATX I have here, and
    got 3.39" high and 5.91" wide. The length (how far back in an ATX
    case the power supply goes), can vary somewhat, with the monster
    power supplies with very high outputs, being longer than others.

    On page 27 is a table of wire colors for the main connector.
    That is supposed to be a hint for what voltages are present on
    what pins. You want to verify those colors, to help you decide
    whether your supply is a standard ATX or not.

    *******

    One problem with something of this age, is finding a picture of
    it that actually matches what you've got. There are any number
    of tricks they can use, to make the supply more difficult
    to replace with a standard one.

    The rating of your supply, 200W, is not a lot of power. If you
    look at the label, there should be ratings for each of the
    DC outputs. On a Pentium 4 processor based system, a typical
    desired rating might be 12V @ 15A for example. You don't want
    to go too much lower than that, without having a very good
    idea what the actual load is. Your new supply, should meet or
    exceed the maximum current ratings listed on the label of
    the current supply. Chances are, there will be enough
    wire assemblies on the new supply, to wire up the supply.
    You will likely have cables left over, which is fine. They
    don't need to be connected.

    It is also OK, to use a higher power supply, such as 350W,
    in place of a 200W supply. The wattage rating is the maximum
    output, rather than a constant level of power being output
    all the time. You can draw 100W from a 200W supply or from a
    350W supply, and the power company will bill you for 100W.
    So the supply wattage rating is its maximum, rather than being an
    "all the time" kind of rating. The 350W is not "wasting" 150W
    more than the 200W one would have.

    The current supply will likely have a 20 pin connector. If there is a
    wire and pin for pin 18, that means the supply has -5V output
    on it. We don't know whether the computer needs that, or that
    is coincidence. Most modern supplies will have pin 18 (white wire)
    removed, and there would be no pin in that location.

    Another thing on modern supplies, is the main connector is 24 pins.
    Most supplies will have a provision to split the connector
    into two pieces. Such a connector is called a "20+4", because
    of the size of the two pieces. The 20 pin section, can be plugged
    into an older motherboard (you leave the other 4 pin bit dangling,
    and it never gets used in that case). That is an attempt at being
    backward compatible, with the least amount of trouble for the
    installer. By splitting a 20+4 connector, you can power older
    20 pin motherboards like yours. So even the latest supply, can
    be used inside your case.

    Power supply selection can take seconds, or hours, depending on
    the vintage of the computer, and the things you read about it.
    Take your time, and do some more reading, before rushing off and
    buying something.

    If your supply does have some goofy mounting system, that
    isn't going to help matters. I can't recommend drilling
    holes into a new power supply, due to the danger of metal
    filings causing a short circuit inside the supply. In any
    case, have a look at it, for any details like that.

    By the way, that power supply part number could be NPS-200-pb
    rather than p6. It would appear there are quite a few
    different models of Newton brand supplies.

    The Gateway site may also have specs for the supply. Gateway
    has their own part numbers, which call up one of several
    equivalent supplies. This is just an example, rather than
    being for your supply.

    http://support.gateway.com/s/POWER/6500158/Q0015810.shtml

    The Gateway site, recommends a few sellers as sources of replacement
    parts.

    http://www.gateway.com/retail/accessories.php

    For example, this would be a page with some "500S" computer parts.
    Note that the supplies are keyed by Gateway part numbers, and the
    form factor is different on a couple of the entries. It's hard to
    believe they're all relevant for your computer. Take a look at
    the pictures and see what you think. The higher power ones are
    the same price as the lower power ones. I notice the supplies
    they're selling here, have a fan attached to the outside of
    the case, rather than having it mounted inside.

    http://www.skyline-eng.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=5324

    Newegg.com carries plenty of power supplies, probably hundreds of them,
    but you'd have to carefully check all the details before using
    one of those.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 22, 2010
    #6
  7. KOS

    KOS Guest

    Hi there. Okay, so what do you think I should do for the power supply,
    as far as watts- 200w-250? What is good to be on the safe side . the
    current one says on the label 200w max...

    Now as far as the connectors...I dont know what they are all i can
    tell you is that I have a Intel (essex) Pent 4 - 1.8GHZ (400MHZ)
    motherboard.. So I dont know what the connectors are though.
    thanks
    KOS
     
    KOS, Jul 23, 2010
    #7

  8. You can't get electrocuted.

    Turn the machine off, uplug it, open the case, unplug the supply, plug in
    the new one. It's really that easy.
     
    Jeff Strickland, Jul 23, 2010
    #8
  9. And the danger there is to the computer, not to the person.
     
    Jeff Strickland, Jul 23, 2010
    #9
  10. KOS

    KOS Guest

    KOS, Jul 23, 2010
    #10
  11. KOS

    Paul Guest

    If you've satisfied yourself that:

    1) The form factor and mounting holes needed (i.e. to transfer the mounting
    bracket from the old one) are all present.

    2) The power rating is greater than or equal to the old one. In the
    Skyline advert, they don't give a closeup view of the label on the supply.

    3) It has enough connectors. That usually isn't a problem, but it's part
    of the checking process.

    I see two competing interests here in the selection process. There are
    the mechanical mounting details. You need to look at the supply you have
    currently, and see if there is a bracket that fastens to it, as part of the
    mounting. It would be best to get a supply that supports the bracket. In
    that case, one of the Skyline products might be the best choice.

    If I was doing it myself, I would prefer to use a standard ATX (Newegg or
    equivalent, something where I can read the customer reviews to see if
    it is a quality product), say a 300 or 350W, which gives a little bit
    of overcapacity. Overcapacity is OK, as long as a supply doesn't have
    minimum load requirements that are hard to meet.

    But the thing is, if there is no way, using that computer case, to
    properly support a standard ATX, then the Skyline might be the one
    to get.

    I still think, you need to double check that part number. There
    are probably some more digits after the NPS-200PB-xxxx. Also,
    if you can manage to find your 500S details on the Gateway site,
    you may be able to find the Gateway part number (as mentioned in
    the Skyline advert). When Gateway specifies power supplies, they
    have their number, which would call up, up to three different
    manufacturer power supply part numbers. That is why the
    Skyline advert has a number like 6500457 (Gateway part number),
    as well as the Newton NPS-200PB-xxxx.

    So far, I don't see a lot of drama here, just the need to
    get the mechanical mounting details right. All my standard
    ATX cases here, have the power supply fastened by four
    rear screws. If your computer case doesn't mount the
    supply that way, then somehow, you'd need to secure the
    replacement supply in that case.

    Your old supply was 200W. Perhaps the 12V rail was rated at 6 or 7 amps.
    Generally, if I was blindfolded and put in front of a P4 machine,
    I'd specify 300-350W and 12V @ 15A without looking at the label,
    for best general power needs. It is possible to use lower power
    supplies, but a person doing so, has to be absolutely assured
    that the computer is not overloading the supply. I could be,
    in fact, that Skyline is using a 300-350W chassis and using
    it as an exact replacement for your 200W. It may be the reason
    several of their supplies are the same price - it could be a
    "one size fits all" solution, with the extra mounting holes added
    so it can be used with the various Gateway computer cases.

    If I was in the room with you, getting as much info off the
    existing unit as possible, would all be part of determining
    who I'd buy it from, and what I'd be looking for. Many supplies
    will fit the bill, but some of them may make the job easier than
    others. If the computer case was defacto standard design,
    with mounting holes on the back, we'd probably have a couple
    hundred supplies to choose from, to do the replacement.

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 23, 2010
    #11
  12. KOS

    KOS Guest

    hi there Paul,
    skyline says its the same exact powersupply and will fit- my complete
    model number is NPS- 200PB 119 C Rev:00
    I'm going to go with this skyline-.. looking at my powersupply in the
    computer looks like it will be kind of hard removing the powersupply,
    im trying to figure out if that blule bracket comes out and where the
    heck the screws are..looks like i will need a very short screwdriver
     
    KOS, Jul 24, 2010
    #12
  13. KOS

    Paul Guest

    I found a picture of the label on the side of your supply.
    This one is made in Thailand. The root Gateway part number
    is 6500612, which you can see near the bottom of the label.

    http://support.gateway.com/s/POWER/6500612/650061204.shtml

    Part Number: 6500612200-Watt Power Supply Revision 1
    ----------------------------------------------------

    5V @ 22A, -12V @ 1.0A, +12V @ 10A, 3.3V @ 14A, 5VSB @ 2.0A
    3.3 & 5V combined power less than 135W
    Output 200W max (means all rails combined)

    http://support.gateway.com/s/POWER/6500612/650061201.shtml (picture)

    http://support.gateway.com/s/POWER/6500612/6500612tc.shtml (other views)

    Unfortunately, I don't have any views (yet) of the things bolted
    to the supply, like any brackets or adapters.

    OK, the piece of metal with the two screws in it, shown here,
    creates a lip. The green plastic tab, snaps into place in a
    hole in the ceiling of the tower case. When it does that,
    part of the plastic catches against the thickness of this bracket,
    as near as I can tell. That means the dimensions of the power
    supply are critical to a good fit. It isn't even clear,
    how the green tab releases in the first place. I can see
    how it would snap in, but it isn't clear how you make
    it release.

    http://cdnsupport.gateway.com/s/POWER/6500612/650061202.jpg

    *******

    OK, this is the inside of a "Pinta case". There is a power
    supply with external fan present.

    http://support.gateway.com/s/CASES/3501234/3501234iv.shtml

    This is "power supply removal" for this particular one.

    http://support.gateway.com/s/CASES/3501234/3501234lvr22.shtml

    It uses two metal tabs behind the supply for support, plus
    a plastic tab to hold it in place. Pretty flimsy looking,
    if that is how yours works.

    http://cdnsupport.gateway.com/s/cases/3501234/350123430.jpg

    I particularly enjoy, how the Gateway site is hyperlinked. You
    can't get back to the master page, from a sub-page like the ones
    above. It's important to note where a page came from. The
    main installation page for that Pinta case is here.

    http://support.gateway.com/s/CASES/3501313/3501313tc.shtml

    Anyway, compare the picture of the flimsy fastening method
    to your computer innards. One view of the power supply,
    shows a long rectangular slot, and that is what hooks the
    metal tabs on the case. The rectangular slot is elongated,
    to allow the power supply to be slid towards the back of
    the case. That's why the hole in the power supply, is bigger
    than the tab, to give room for movement while sliding the
    PSU.

    *******

    My suspicion, after looking at a lot of web pages, is there
    must have been quite a few different sub-models of "500S".
    It's hard to say whether the internal details on all of
    them would be the same or not. Some used 845 chipset and
    others 865, so the production must have spanned a few years
    in total.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 24, 2010
    #13
  14. KOS

    KOS Guest

    http://support.gateway.com/s/CASES/3501234/3501234iv.shtml
    that is definitely my pc.. with that light green fastener.
    im going to order the skyline psupply.. hoping it will fit.. like i
    said, guy said it would, that its designed for my pc.. after all the
    stuff you read, what is your guess? think it will fit
     
    KOS, Jul 24, 2010
    #14
  15. KOS

    Paul Guest

    I threw in the last post, to give you some idea how the old one
    might come out. As long as the new one has that strip of metal
    and two screws (provides a ledge for the green plastic thing), and
    the case of the PSU is exactly the same length, it should snap in place.

    If it doesn't work you, then you own a spare power supply :)

    Don't forget to make notes of how all the power cables fit in
    there. Which side the wire colors are on and so on. Most connectors
    are pretty effectively keyed and only go on one way. But every
    once in a while, we run into a person who jams a connector on
    backwards, and claims it didn't take excessive force to do that.

    If something isn't fitting right, you'll want your notes on how
    the thing is oriented, to know whether you should continue bashing
    on it. Like, one connector that is going to annoy you, is the floppy
    power connector. You may have to tilt it on an angle, to get
    it to engage.

    There is a 2x2 power connector near the P4 processor, and that
    is the ATX12V connector. It has two yellow wires and two black
    wires (12V and GND). If you take note of the wire colors, it
    reduces the risk of grabbing some other 2x2 connector and
    using it by accident. Again, the keying probably wouldn't work
    for the wrong connector, but if you watch your wire colors, it's
    one way to catch a mistake before powering up the new supply.

    The two main power connectors on your motherboard (20 pin and 2x2
    pin), have a plastic latch on the side. It mates with a latch
    on the motherboard connector. To release the old power supply,
    you have to press the latch, then pull up on those connectors.
    The new supply connector will easily go into place. You want to
    make sure the latch is engaged on both connectors, when you're
    finished. The latch is there to prevent the connector from "walking
    backwards" out of its mate. Thermal expansion tends to do
    that to connectors, which is why those two have latches on
    them.

    Your hard drive connector is an "interference fit", and doesn't
    use a latch. If anything, those can be overly difficult to
    remove, mainly because you can't get a grip on them. Some
    newer versions of the Molex 1x4, have a release mechanism,
    to help ease the connector out, which is a welcome improvement.
    That makes up, for the lack of a good grip. (I use my fingers
    on the old ones, due to the danger of pliers slipping and
    ruining something.)

    Good luck,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 25, 2010
    #15
  16. KOS

    Paul Guest

    I threw in the last post, to give you some idea how the old one
    might come out. As long as the new one has that strip of metal
    and two screws (provides a ledge for the green plastic thing), and
    the case of the PSU is exactly the same length, it should snap in place.

    If it doesn't work you, then you own a spare power supply :)

    Don't forget to make notes of how all the power cables fit in
    there. Which side the wire colors are on and so on. Most connectors
    are pretty effectively keyed and only go on one way. But every
    once in a while, we run into a person who jams a connector on
    backwards, and claims it didn't take excessive force to do that.

    If something isn't fitting right, you'll want your notes on how
    the thing is oriented, to know whether you should continue bashing
    on it. Like, one connector that is going to annoy you, is the floppy
    power connector. You may have to tilt it on an angle, to get
    it to engage.

    There is a 2x2 power connector near the P4 processor, and that
    is the ATX12V connector. It has two yellow wires and two black
    wires (12V and GND). If you take note of the wire colors, it
    reduces the risk of grabbing some other 2x2 connector and
    using it by accident. Again, the keying probably wouldn't work
    for the wrong connector, but if you watch your wire colors, it's
    one way to catch a mistake before powering up the new supply.

    The two main power connectors on your motherboard (20 pin and 2x2
    pin), have a plastic latch on the side. It mates with a latch
    on the motherboard connector. To release the old power supply,
    you have to press the latch, then pull up on those connectors.
    The new supply connector will easily go into place. You want to
    make sure the latch is engaged on both connectors, when you're
    finished. The latch is there to prevent the connector from "walking
    backwards" out of its mate. Thermal expansion tends to do
    that to connectors, which is why those two have latches on
    them.

    Your hard drive connector is an "interference fit", and doesn't
    use a latch. If anything, those can be overly difficult to
    remove, mainly because you can't get a grip on them. Some
    newer versions of the Molex 1x4, have a release mechanism,
    to help ease the connector out, which is a welcome improvement.
    That makes up, for the lack of a good grip. (I use my fingers
    on the old ones, due to the danger of pliers slipping and
    ruining something.)

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 25, 2010
    #16
  17. KOS

    KOS Guest

    Paul, thanks so much for your input. Got another question... My
    gateway's powersupply was making a really lloud sound, it was the fan
    - now though the thing died completely.. When I press the power
    button, computer does not turn on...At all.. There is though a light
    on the motherboard... Is this what happens when the powersupply dies?
    Could it also be that the power button blew out too?? the button to
    turn on the PC? Again, the fan was really making a loud noise (the
    power supply fan)- now pc is dead.
     
    KOS, Jul 25, 2010
    #17
  18. KOS

    Paul Guest

    So the fan speed went up, because the power supply was overheating
    inside. Now the power supply is dead, finally succumbing to whatever
    was ailing it. Since you've let that happen (run to failure), now
    the replacement isn't guaranteed to fix it. The thing is, when some
    power supplies fail, they damage the motherboard, or the hard drive,
    or optical drive, keyboard or mouse.

    When you get the replacement, it'll be interesting to see whether
    it boots again. Then you'll have your answer, as to whether there
    was collateral damage.

    When someone reports "a noise", I can't tell from that description
    what kind of noise it is. My assumption, in your case, was fan bearing
    failure, leading to "grumbling" noise or squeaking or the like.
    (In other words, *only* a fan failure.) So then, your noise was
    actually the fan, operating normally but at high RPM speed, trying
    to cool something hotter than normal. (Maybe you have a plugged
    cooling vent or cooling path - hair, dust, or fur gathered somewhere ?
    I've seen some pretty amazing plugged up cooling before.)

    If you had a certain model of Bestec 250W power supply, there'd be pretty
    well a guarantee of damaged hardware. It's really a coin toss for the
    rest of the supply brands and types, with a lot of modern supplies
    causing no problems at all when they fail. Down to the $20 supplies,
    which raise the odds of getting a rude surprise. The lower the price
    of the supply, and the lower sophistication of protection features,
    the poorer the odds of survival of the other hardware. The Bestec
    model, used to over-volt before failure, which is why the other hardware
    would blow out.

    Some computers in the past, used the power supply fan for system cooling
    as well as power supply cooling. In fact, there was a three pin
    fan connector, which plugged from the supply, down to a keyed motherboard
    fan header. The motherboard in that case, actually controls the fan
    speed, and can turn up the fan if the CPU gets too hot. Now that you
    can't run the computer, we cannot verify whether the CPU was too hot
    or not. (Sometimes, the BIOS has a hardware monitor page, with CPU
    temperature listed, or you can use a utility like Speedfan from
    almico.com .)

    What could happen, is you connect the new supply, get all the connectors
    right, fire it up, and hear the same level of high speed fan operation.
    It could be caused by the CPU operating hotter than it should. In some
    cases, that is caused by the CPU heatsink coming loose from the motherboard.
    Intel in the past, has used plastic parts, under tension. And after
    enough time, something like that could crack and fail. So that is
    something else for you to check on, when you're inside the case.
    Whether any heat sink clamp or latch is secure.

    You may also want to look at any smaller heatsink on the Northbridge chip.
    Machines of that era, used a wire that fastens into two metal hook eyes,
    and the hook eyes are soldered to the motherboard. The metal used
    for the hook eye, is selected for strength, instead of for its ability
    to solder well. What happens, is the hook eye pulls out of the motherboard,
    because the solder isn't really securing it. At least one brand of
    motherboard, actually has an electrical continuity check, where it
    can detect the hooks and spring wire are no longer doing what they're supposed
    to do. In any case, you'd look at the Northbridge, and make sure it's
    heatsink is still fastened properly.

    Good luck,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 25, 2010
    #18
  19. KOS

    Neil Green Guest

    Or the OP could just replace the fan in the PSU which is probably where the
    noise is coming from.
     
    Neil Green, Jul 30, 2010
    #19
  20. KOS

    Paul Guest

    Yes, if you know what you're doing.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 30, 2010
    #20
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