Power supply fried, replaced it, computer won't start

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by ., Aug 28, 2006.

  1. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    >
    > >> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:

    >
    > >> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
    > >> often shortly after leaving the factory
    > >> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    > >> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
    > >> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.

    >
    > >> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect that
    > >> the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out with it.
    > >> The second one can't even power itself, apparently.

    >
    > >> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that often
    > >> spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power supply can
    > >> save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks. -Dave

    >
    > > Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
    > > store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
    > > If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.

    >
    > You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
    > power supply, not observed by the power supply.


    It works both ways. Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes,
    it is there to prevent the motherboard from starting up before the power
    supply stabilizes.

    However, on some power supplies, if there is a power surge or any other
    issue (which can be caused by a fried component on the motherboard),
    "Power Good" will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.
     
    David Matthew Wood, Aug 28, 2006
    #21
    1. Advertisements

  2. In article <>,
    wrote:

    > David Matthew Wood <> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:
    > >>
    > >> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after leaving
    > >> the factory
    > >> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    > >> components
    > >> with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies kill
    > >> motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.
    > >>
    > >> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect that the
    > >> first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out with it. The
    > >> second
    > >> one can't even power itself, apparently.
    > >>
    > >> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that often spending
    > >> an
    > >> extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power supply can save a complete rebuild,
    > >> costing hundreds of bucks. -Dave

    >
    > >Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
    > >perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power supply
    > >doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX power
    > >supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component protection.
    > >If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the case here, since
    > >his first power supply fried something), it will shut down a working
    > >power supply.

    >
    > Good link on the Power Good Signal
    > http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcPowerGood-c.html
    > and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake" the Power
    > Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."


    Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power Good,
    such power supplies don't provide any protection either. If you try to
    fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the correct loads (either
    from not being properly connected or from something that is shorting),
    it will shut down in order to prevent damage since it is bad for a power
    supply to run without a load. Same goes with amps. If you power up an
    amp and crank the volume without speakers attached, it will either a, go
    into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.
     
    David Matthew Wood, Aug 28, 2006
    #22
    1. Advertisements

  3. .

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > Rod Speed <> wrote
    >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote


    >>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


    >>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
    >>>> often shortly after leaving the factory
    >>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    >>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
    >>>> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


    >>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
    >>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
    >>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


    >>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
    >>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
    >>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


    >>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
    >>> store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
    >>> If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.


    >> You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
    >> power supply, not observed by the power supply.


    > It works both ways.


    Nope, its an output FROM the power supply, not an input TO the power supply.

    > Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes, it is there to prevent
    > the motherboard from starting up before the power supply stabilizes.


    Nothing like what you originally said.

    > However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
    > surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
    > fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
    > will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.


    Nope, again, its an output FROM the power supply and the power
    supply is supposed to drop the power good signal if something has
    gone bad power wise, mainly so the motherboard can restart after
    a glitch that has seen the power supply shut down and then start again.

    The power supply doesnt even notice a fried component
    on the motherboard unless that produces a higher than
    allowed current on one of the rails it produces.
     
    Rod Speed, Aug 28, 2006
    #23
  4. .

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > wrote
    >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote


    >>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


    >>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after
    >>>> leaving the factory
    >>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    >>>> components
    >>>> with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies
    >>>> kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


    >>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
    >>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
    >>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


    >>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
    >>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
    >>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


    >>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
    >>> perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power
    >>> supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX
    >>> power supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component
    >>> protection. If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the
    >>> case here, since his first power supply fried something), it will
    >>> shut down a working power supply.


    >> Good link on the Power Good Signal
    >> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcPowerGood-c.html
    >> and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake"
    >> the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."


    > Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power
    > Good, such power supplies don't provide any protection either.


    You dont know that on that ANY claim.

    > If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the correct
    > loads (either from not being properly connected or from something that
    > is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage


    Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.

    Where they mostly fail is shutting down properly when the power supply fails.

    > since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.


    Oh bullshit.

    > Same goes with amps.


    Nope, completely different.

    > If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers attached,
    > it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.


    Utterly mangled all over again.
     
    Rod Speed, Aug 28, 2006
    #24
  5. .

    DaveW Guest

    When you use a "cheap" power supply unit ($35 for PSU & case) you run into
    the problem that if the PSU fails it usually burns out the motherboard too.
    High end PSU's usually do NOT do that; they include built in protection
    circuits.

    --
    DaveW

    ----------------
    "." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Yesterday morning, ten hours after I'd last powered my PC down, I turned
    > it on and noticed immediately a burning "electrical fire" smell.
    >
    > Turned the computer off (using Windows shutdown first from the login
    > screen), disconnected all peripherals and the power, opened the case.
    > Attached the power cord only, started it, everything worked (hard drives
    > were cycling, CPU fan going, motherboard lights on, etc.), but I noticed
    > the smell again. I did some sniffing and it was definitely coming from
    > the power supply. Then the computer just stopped.
    >
    > I am not a "hardware guy" but I did some research on the web, consulted
    > with the friend who helped me build the computer, and it seemed pretty
    > open and shut. The 350 watt supply that came with the case ($35 for
    > case and supply) was to blame.
    >
    > So went to CompUSA today and picked up
    > http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=283768 -
    > seemed to be a worthy "bang for the buck" 400-watt supply.
    >
    > http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/362/ is the instructions I
    > followed.
    >
    > Before disconnecting the old PSU, I carefully labelled every connection,
    > showing what it was connected to, and the orientation on the drive or
    > board. (The PSU had a 20-pin connection to the motherboard, the ATX12V
    > comnnector, and my computer has two hard drives, a DVD drive, and a 3.5"
    > floppy.)
    >
    > Plugged the computer in, turned on the PSU, and nothing. Ultimately, I
    > tried a known good power cord and the new cord that came with the PSU, a
    > known working outlet, several permutations, nothing. The voltage
    > selector is correct (115 volts) on the back of the PSU. When I apply
    > power, the CPU fan turns for about two seconds then stops (no harsh or
    > unusual noises - it was turning fine yesterday). The green light on the
    > motherboard stays lit. But no drive lights come on, and no sign of any
    > activity.
    >
    > I don't have a multimeter. I'm not an electrician or electrical
    > engineer. I just want some suggestions on what might be wrong and how
    > to fix it. FWIW, the motherboard seems to show no abuse; the capacitors
    > all look shiny and intact.
    >
    > My friend who built the PC for me is traveling, and I will ultimately
    > bring the computer to him and his extensive testbench if I can't figure
    > this out myself. But I'm really at my wit's end now and am hoping for a
    > few useful "try this" suggestions.
     
    DaveW, Aug 29, 2006
    #25
  6. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > > wrote
    > >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote

    >
    > >>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:

    >
    > >>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after
    > >>>> leaving the factory
    > >>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    > >>>> components
    > >>>> with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies
    > >>>> kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.

    >
    > >>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
    > >>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
    > >>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.

    >
    > >>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
    > >>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
    > >>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.

    >
    > >>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
    > >>> perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power
    > >>> supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX
    > >>> power supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component
    > >>> protection. If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the
    > >>> case here, since his first power supply fried something), it will
    > >>> shut down a working power supply.

    >
    > >> Good link on the Power Good Signal
    > >> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcPowerGood-c.html
    > >> and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake"
    > >> the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."

    >
    > > Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power
    > > Good, such power supplies don't provide any protection either.

    >
    > You dont know that on that ANY claim.


    What, that cheap POS power supplies don't shut down right away if
    something is shorting? Well lets see. I have some sitting around that
    will not power up at all because something in the machine shorted them
    out. I have others sitting around that still power up and work just
    fine after being shorted out, because they shut down right away before
    damage was done.

    >
    > > If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the correct
    > > loads (either from not being properly connected or from something that
    > > is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage

    >
    > Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.
    >
    > Where they mostly fail is shutting down properly when the power supply fails.


    Shutting down before damage is done you mean. I've witnessed both.

    A, something will short out and PS will smoke.
    or
    B, something will short out and PS will turn off. In which case, after
    dealing with whatever caused the short, the power supply will come to
    life and work just fine.

    >
    > > since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

    >
    > Oh bullshit.


    Oh really? Why don't you try it then. Force a cheap power supply on
    and let it run for a while without a load. See what happens.

    >
    > > Same goes with amps.

    >
    > Nope, completely different.
    >
    > > If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers attached,
    > > it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.

    >
    > Utterly mangled all over again.


    Again...oh really? Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio
    feed, disconnect anything that will create a load on the outputs, crank
    the levels, and see what happens.
     
    David Matthew Wood, Aug 29, 2006
    #26
  7. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > > Rod Speed <> wrote
    > >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote

    >
    > >>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:

    >
    > >>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
    > >>>> often shortly after leaving the factory
    > >>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    > >>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
    > >>>> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.

    >
    > >>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
    > >>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
    > >>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.

    >
    > >>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
    > >>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
    > >>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.

    >
    > >>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
    > >>> store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
    > >>> If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.

    >
    > >> You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
    > >> power supply, not observed by the power supply.

    >
    > > It works both ways.

    >
    > Nope, its an output FROM the power supply, not an input TO the power supply.


    It doesn't matter. Some supplies monitor that load. I have quite a few
    that will shut down if load on PG does not exist.

    >
    > > Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes, it is there to prevent
    > > the motherboard from starting up before the power supply stabilizes.

    >
    > Nothing like what you originally said.


    No, I'm half agreeing with you about what power good is there for.

    >
    > > However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
    > > surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
    > > fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
    > > will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.

    >
    > Nope, again, its an output FROM the power supply and the power
    > supply is supposed to drop the power good signal if something has
    > gone bad power wise, mainly so the motherboard can restart after
    > a glitch that has seen the power supply shut down and then start again.


    And some supplies shut down completely. I have a few sitting right here
    that will do that.

    >
    > The power supply doesnt even notice a fried component
    > on the motherboard unless that produces a higher than
    > allowed current on one of the rails it produces.


    And now we go back to the original post where the OP said that his new
    power supply would not stay on - not because it was bad, but because
    there was an issue with something it was powering up. As it turned out,
    once he cleared up that issue, all was well.
     
    David Matthew Wood, Aug 29, 2006
    #27
  8. .

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > Rod Speed <> wrote
    >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    >>> wrote
    >>>> David Matthew Wood <> wrote


    >>>>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


    >>>>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after
    >>>>>> leaving the factory
    >>>>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    >>>>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap
    >>>>>> power supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


    >>>>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
    >>>>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
    >>>>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


    >>>>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
    >>>>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
    >>>>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


    >>>>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the store is
    >>>>> perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"! If the power
    >>>>> supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on. That is how all ATX
    >>>>> power supplies are designed, and it is indeed built-in component
    >>>>> protection. If anything is shorting out (as could very well be the
    >>>>> case here, since his first power supply fried something), it will
    >>>>> shut down a working power supply.


    >>>> Good link on the Power Good Signal
    >>>> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcPowerGood-c.html
    >>>> and how "Some extremely el-cheapo power supplies may "fake"
    >>>> the Power Good signal by just tying it to another +5 V line."


    >>> Yes, and while it doesn't directly have anything to do with Power
    >>> Good, such power supplies don't provide any protection either.


    >> You dont know that on that ANY claim.


    > What, that cheap POS power supplies don't
    > shut down right away if something is shorting?


    Nope, that they dont have ANY protection.

    > Well lets see. I have some sitting around that will not power
    > up at all because something in the machine shorted them out.


    You dont know that that is the reason why they died.

    > I have others sitting around that still power up and
    > work just fine after being shorted out, because they
    > shut down right away before damage was done.


    Plenty of cheap power supplys do that fine.

    >>> If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the
    >>> correct loads (either from not being properly connected or from
    >>> something that is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage


    >> Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.


    >> Where they mostly fail is shutting down
    >> properly when the power supply fails.


    > Shutting down before damage is done you mean.


    Yep.

    > I've witnessed both.


    Yes, so you claim that they dont have ANY protection is just plain wrong.

    > A, something will short out and PS will smoke.
    > or
    > B, something will short out and PS will turn off. In which
    > case, after dealing with whatever caused the short, the
    > power supply will come to life and work just fine.


    Yep, and when that last is seen with a cheap power
    supply, they must have had SOME protection.

    >>> since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.


    >> Oh bullshit.


    > Oh really? Why don't you try it then.


    Done that plenty of times thanks.

    > Force a cheap power supply on and let it run
    > for a while without a load. See what happens.


    Nothing, thats what. It works fine when its used with a load.

    >>> Same goes with amps.


    >> Nope, completely different.


    >>> If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers
    >>> attached, it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b, self-destruct.


    >> Utterly mangled all over again.


    > Again...oh really?


    Fraid so.

    > Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio feed,
    > disconnect anything that will create a load on the
    > outputs, crank the levels, and see what happens.


    Nothing special with a properly designed amp.

    Because it isnt hard to accidentially disconnect a speaker.
     
    Rod Speed, Aug 29, 2006
    #28
  9. .

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > Rod Speed <> wrote
    >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    >>> Rod Speed <> wrote
    >>>> David Matthew Wood <> wrote


    >>>>>> Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


    >>>>>> 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw),
    >>>>>> often shortly after leaving the factory
    >>>>>> 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other
    >>>>>> components with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power
    >>>>>> supplies kill motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.


    >>>>>> Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect
    >>>>>> that the first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out
    >>>>>> with it. The second one can't even power itself, apparently.


    >>>>>> It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that
    >>>>>> often spending an extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power
    >>>>>> supply can save a complete rebuild, costing hundreds of bucks.


    >>>>> Actually, I'm sure the power supply he bought from the
    >>>>> store is perfectly fine. Don't forget about "power good"!
    >>>>> If the power supply doesn't see this, it will not stay on.


    >>>> You've got that backwards, its PROVIDED by the
    >>>> power supply, not observed by the power supply.


    >>> It works both ways.


    >> Nope, its an output FROM the power supply, not an input TO the power supply.


    > It doesn't matter.


    Corse it does.

    > Some supplies monitor that load.


    The power good line isnt even a load.

    > I have quite a few that will shut down if load on PG does not exist.


    Fantasy. There are quite a few that will shut down if the
    OUTPUT RAILS arent loaded, a different matter entirely.

    >>> Yes, it is provided by the power supply, and yes,
    >>> it is there to prevent the motherboard from starting
    >>> up before the power supply stabilizes.


    >> Nothing like what you originally said.


    > No, I'm half agreeing with you about what power good is there for.


    No you arent, you just said that some power
    supplys monitor if that line is loaded. No they dont.

    >>> However, on some power supplies, if there is a power
    >>> surge or any other issue (which can be caused by a
    >>> fried component on the motherboard), "Power Good"
    >>> will also shut down the power supply if it malfunctions.


    >> Nope, again, its an output FROM the power supply and the power
    >> supply is supposed to drop the power good signal if something has
    >> gone bad power wise, mainly so the motherboard can restart after
    >> a glitch that has seen the power supply shut down and then start again.


    > And some supplies shut down completely.


    Different matter entirely.

    Yes, some do need to be unplugged from the mains to reset themselves.

    > I have a few sitting right here that will do that.


    >> The power supply doesnt even notice a fried component
    >> on the motherboard unless that produces a higher than
    >> allowed current on one of the rails it produces.


    > And now we go back to the original post where the OP said that his
    > new power supply would not stay on - not because it was bad, but
    > because there was an issue with something it was powering up.


    Yes, but that had nothing to do with the power good line.

    > As it turned out, once he cleared up that issue, all was well.


    Yes, but thats irrelevant to YOUR claims about the power good line.
     
    Rod Speed, Aug 29, 2006
    #29
  10. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > > Well lets see. I have some sitting around that will not power
    > > up at all because something in the machine shorted them out.

    >
    > You dont know that that is the reason why they died.


    And do you know this exactly? I've seen it happen firsthand.

    >
    > > I have others sitting around that still power up and
    > > work just fine after being shorted out, because they
    > > shut down right away before damage was done.

    >
    > Plenty of cheap power supplys do that fine.


    Maybe, but not as likely as it would be if it weren't a power supply
    where corners were cut in making it.

    > >>> If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the
    > >>> correct loads (either from not being properly connected or from
    > >>> something that is shorting), it will shut down in order to prevent damage

    >
    > >> Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.

    >
    > >> Where they mostly fail is shutting down
    > >> properly when the power supply fails.

    >
    > > Shutting down before damage is done you mean.

    >
    > Yep.
    >
    > > I've witnessed both.

    >
    > Yes, so you claim that they dont have ANY protection is just plain wrong.


    I was replying to an article that mentioned how some skimp on PG and
    just supply a normal 5v lead instead. If a power supply is built like
    that, then it's very likely corners were cut in other areas too,
    including the protection circuitry.

    > >>> since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

    >
    > >> Oh bullshit.

    >
    > > Oh really? Why don't you try it then.

    >
    > Done that plenty of times thanks.


    Consider yourself lucky then.

    > >>> Same goes with amps.

    >
    > >> Nope, completely different.

    >
    > >>> If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers
    > >>> attached, it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b,
    > >>> self-destruct.

    >
    > >> Utterly mangled all over again.

    >
    > > Again...oh really?

    >
    > Fraid so.
    >
    > > Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio feed,
    > > disconnect anything that will create a load on the
    > > outputs, crank the levels, and see what happens.

    >
    > Nothing special with a properly designed amp.


    All amps come with manuals that say to NEVER operate them without a
    proper load. There are reasons for this.

    >
    > Because it isnt hard to accidentially disconnect a speaker.


    Again, consider yourself lucky. Either you weren't running much power
    through this thing, or you caught it in a short time - or you weren't
    running the amp much beyond 20% of its capacity with a constant signal
    running through it.
     
    David Matthew Wood, Aug 29, 2006
    #30
  11. .

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > Rod Speed <> wrote
    >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote


    >>> Well lets see. I have some sitting around that will not power
    >>> up at all because something in the machine shorted them out.


    >> You dont know that that is the reason why they died.


    > And do you know this exactly?


    I know that you cant be sure why they have failed.

    > I've seen it happen firsthand.


    Or assumed that they got killed by the machine shorting them out
    when they may have died and killed what is powered from them.
    That last isnt that uncommon with cheap power supplys.

    >>> I have others sitting around that still power up and
    >>> work just fine after being shorted out, because they
    >>> shut down right away before damage was done.


    >> Plenty of cheap power supplys do that fine.


    > Maybe,


    No maybe about it.

    > but not as likely as it would be if it weren't a power
    > supply where corners were cut in making it.


    Wrong, there arent many so badly designed that they
    dont shut down when one of the rails is shorted.

    Plenty more fail and kill what is powered by the power supply.

    >>>>> If you try to fire up a GOOD supply and it doesn't observe the
    >>>>> correct loads (either from not being properly connected or from
    >>>>> something that is shorting), it will shut down in order to
    >>>>> prevent damage


    >>>> Yes. But that is true even with cheap power supplys too.


    >>>> Where they mostly fail is shutting down
    >>>> properly when the power supply fails.


    >>> Shutting down before damage is done you mean.


    >> Yep.


    >>> I've witnessed both.


    >> Yes, so your claim that they dont have ANY protection is just plain wrong.


    > I was replying to an article that mentioned how some
    > skimp on PG and just supply a normal 5v lead instead.


    Yes, but that isnt necessarily the end of the world
    if the design ensures that that comes up last.

    > If a power supply is built like that, then it's very likely corners
    > were cut in other areas too, including the protection circuitry.


    Not necessarily if the supply ensures that that 5V rail comes up last.

    And you claimed that they dont have ANY protection. Even
    the cheapest power supply have SOME protection even if
    they dont necessarily adequately protect against the power
    supply over voltaging some of the rails as it dies.

    Essentially because that sort of independant protection against
    any output rail going out of spec costs more to provide.

    >>>>> since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.


    >>>> Oh bullshit.


    >>> Oh really? Why don't you try it then.


    >> Done that plenty of times thanks.


    > Consider yourself lucky then.


    Nope, I know that wont kill a power supply.

    >>>>> Same goes with amps.


    >>>> Nope, completely different.


    >>>>> If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers
    >>>>> attached, it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b,
    >>>>> self-destruct.


    >>>> Utterly mangled all over again.


    >>> Again...oh really?


    >> Fraid so.


    >>> Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio feed,
    >>> disconnect anything that will create a load on the
    >>> outputs, crank the levels, and see what happens.


    >> Nothing special with a properly designed amp.


    > All amps come with manuals that say to NEVER operate
    > them without a proper load. There are reasons for this.


    Doesnt mean they will be killed by the accidental disconnection of a speaker.

    >> Because it isnt hard to accidentially disconnect a speaker.


    > Again, consider yourself lucky.


    No thanks, I know that wont kill a properly designed amp.

    > Either you weren't running much power through this thing,
    > or you caught it in a short time - or you weren't running the
    > amp much beyond 20% of its capacity with a constant signal
    > running through it.


    Easy to claim. I manage to fry the speakers
    by over driving them and the amp was fine.
     
    Rod Speed, Aug 29, 2006
    #31
  12. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > > Rod Speed <> wrote
    > >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote

    >
    > >>> Well lets see. I have some sitting around that will not power
    > >>> up at all because something in the machine shorted them out.

    >
    > >> You dont know that that is the reason why they died.

    >
    > > And do you know this exactly?

    >
    > I know that you cant be sure why they have failed.
    >
    > > I've seen it happen firsthand.

    >
    > Or assumed that they got killed by the machine shorting them out
    > when they may have died and killed what is powered from them.
    > That last isnt that uncommon with cheap power supplys.


    Um.... no. Many years ago, I overestimated the space between the bottom
    of a hard drive and the metal frame of the case. Turned machine on,
    drive control board shorted and smoked. Because of this short, power
    supply also smoked. How is that an assumption exactly?
    And again later, I unknowingly had a bad power connector which turned
    out to be shorted. Fired up the supply, it came on for not even half a
    second, and turned itself off again. Short was cleared, power was fired
    up again, and all was well.

    >
    > >>> I have others sitting around that still power up and
    > >>> work just fine after being shorted out, because they
    > >>> shut down right away before damage was done.

    >
    > >> Plenty of cheap power supplys do that fine.

    >
    > > Maybe,

    >
    > No maybe about it.


    Plenty maybe about it, it all depends on design.

    >
    > > but not as likely as it would be if it weren't a power
    > > supply where corners were cut in making it.

    >
    > Wrong, there arent many so badly designed that they
    > dont shut down when one of the rails is shorted.


    I had one smoke due to this.

    >
    > Plenty more fail and kill what is powered by the power supply.


    Yes, and the better designed supplies shut down before this happens -
    just as the better designs shut off in time to save themselves if they
    are shorted.

    > > I was replying to an article that mentioned how some
    > > skimp on PG and just supply a normal 5v lead instead.

    >
    > Yes, but that isnt necessarily the end of the world
    > if the design ensures that that comes up last.
    >
    > > If a power supply is built like that, then it's very likely corners
    > > were cut in other areas too, including the protection circuitry.

    >
    > Not necessarily if the supply ensures that that 5V rail comes up last.


    And not all of them do.

    > And you claimed that they dont have ANY protection. Even
    > the cheapest power supply have SOME protection even if
    > they dont necessarily adequately protect against the power
    > supply over voltaging some of the rails as it dies.


    -sigh- protection as in protecting the power supply itself, which is
    what I meant. In other words, its ability to shut itself down BEFORE
    damage is done to the supply, which was the original case of this
    thread. The OP's power supply died. He went to the store and bought
    another one, and put it in his machine. He went to fire it up, it shut
    down right afterwards. The OP then corrected a wiring problem, fired it
    up again without changing any components, and all was good.
    If I had wanted to go any further than that, I could have just said that
    the fuse in your mains fuse box IS the protection - not against
    equipment, but against fire... but perhaps I should have stated this
    anyway.

    >
    > Essentially because that sort of independant protection against
    > any output rail going out of spec costs more to provide.


    yes..

    >
    > >>>>> since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

    >
    > >>>> Oh bullshit.

    >
    > >>> Oh really? Why don't you try it then.

    >
    > >> Done that plenty of times thanks.

    >
    > > Consider yourself lucky then.

    >
    > Nope, I know that wont kill a power supply.


    Then why do the manufacturers of these very supplies advise against this?
    >
    > >>>>> Same goes with amps.

    >
    > >>>> Nope, completely different.

    >
    > >>>>> If you power up an amp and crank the volume without speakers
    > >>>>> attached, it will either a, go into thermal shut down, or b,
    > >>>>> self-destruct.

    >
    > >>>> Utterly mangled all over again.

    >
    > >>> Again...oh really?

    >
    > >> Fraid so.

    >
    > >>> Take a high current amplifier, give it an audio feed,
    > >>> disconnect anything that will create a load on the
    > >>> outputs, crank the levels, and see what happens.

    >
    > >> Nothing special with a properly designed amp.

    >
    > > All amps come with manuals that say to NEVER operate
    > > them without a proper load. There are reasons for this.

    >
    > Doesnt mean they will be killed by the accidental disconnection of a speaker.


    Accidental disconnection of a speaker, which is usually caught shortly
    afterwards since you're now not hearing sound out of this speaker. If
    this condition were allowed to continue and you ran the amp at constant
    high power, it will eventually kill the amp - if it doesn't trip the
    protection circuits first!

    > >> Because it isnt hard to accidentially disconnect a speaker.

    >
    > > Again, consider yourself lucky.

    >
    > No thanks, I know that wont kill a properly designed amp.


    Well since you seem to know more than the people who made these amps,
    all of whom say NEVER run an amp without a load...

    >
    > > Either you weren't running much power through this thing,
    > > or you caught it in a short time - or you weren't running the
    > > amp much beyond 20% of its capacity with a constant signal
    > > running through it.

    >
    > Easy to claim. I manage to fry the speakers
    > by over driving them and the amp was fine.


    And while these speakers are being over driven, you are still driving
    them and thus the amp is seeing a load! How long after completely
    melting the speaker coils, have you run this amp exactly? How long have
    you let it run under constant high power without a load? Do you
    actually test this by turning the volume up higher and higher AFTER you
    manage to blow the speakers?
     
    David Matthew Wood, Aug 29, 2006
    #32
  13. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > >>> Some cheap power supplies don't have adequate
    > >>> protection against damage from shorts.

    >
    > >>> There. Done.

    >
    > >> Nothing like your original.

    >
    > > In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection.

    >
    > You actually said they dont have ANY protection.


    Protection against equipment damage, no. That is what the thread was
    about.

    >
    > > If you had followed the thread which is what I had been doing, "protection
    > > against
    > > damaged from shorts" would have been assumed, as it is all in context.

    >
    > Its just plain wrong even with just shorted outputs,
    > and those clearly wont the only thing being discussed
    > because you went on to stupidly claim that they dont
    > have any protection against running unloaded either.


    Because you said you were running it unloaded. Now if you're running it
    unloaded and protection kicks in on it, that's not exactly continuing to
    run it unloaded, now is it?


    > > Case in point, power supply that smoked when it was shorted.

    >
    > Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it didnt have ANY protection.


    Protection against damage, no it obviously did not. That is what the
    thread was about.

    >
    > > Either way, the statement you just now made is contradictory to itself.

    >
    > Lying now.


    Why did you remove the statement this was about?

    >
    > >>> The spikes are within tolerance.

    >
    > >> There is no such animal.

    >
    > > You must have some reallllyyyyy cleeeaaaaaaaannnnn power then.

    >
    > Nope, I'm just saying that there is no TOLERANCE to be within.


    So you're basically saying that the voltage you get from a household a/c
    outlet is a CONSTANT 120, and NEVER fluctuates at all?

    > >> And there has to be protection against mains spikes, otherwise
    > >> no power supply thats used on the mains will last very long.

    >
    > > Yes, that is why we have voltage regulators. Again though, this
    > > has nothing to do with the output of the supply being shorted.

    >
    > Has everything to do with your original stupid claim that
    > some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.


    Protection against shorts. Again, context of the thread.

    > > you're the one who brought up voltage spikes to begin with,
    > > when that again has nothing to do with outputs being shorted.

    >
    > Pity you never restricted your original stupid claim to shorted outputs.


    The thread was talking about shorted outputs. Take it in context.

    > > Again, in context with the thread, it should have been assumed.

    >
    > Nope, not when you went on to make equally stupid claims about
    > them not having any protection against running unloaded either.


    You said you were continuing to run it unloaded. But you can't continue
    to run it unloaded if protection kicks.

    >
    > >>> Ok, so now you're saying is OK for ALL power supplies to run WITHOUT
    > >>> a load - and yet, some won't even power up without a load. Why is that?

    >
    > >> Basically because its cheaper to design it
    > >> so that it needs some load to start properly.

    >
    > > How is it cheaper to add circuitry that senses
    > > whether or not there is a load during start up?

    >
    > Never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.


    Ok then, I have two power supplies, both with hard wired power switches.
    One of them will fire up without a load when I flip the switch. The
    other one will not. Why is the latter cheaper?

    >
    > >>> and correct the problem long before
    > >>> it has any chance to do any damage.

    >
    > >> You may not notice that one channel
    > >> has died if you arent relatively close to it.

    >
    > > I notice it quite easily when my entire sound stage shifts, thank you.

    >
    > You may not notice that if you arent even in that room at the time.


    I'm in the room when I turned it on, and that's when I would notice it.

    >
    > >>>>>> Funny that. They're there for a reason.

    >
    > >>>>> Yes, to prevent damage to the output transformers from
    > >>>> attempting to run it without a load - or in the case of a short!

    >
    > >>>> There are no 'output transformers'

    >
    > >>> Then you're not using tube amps. Ok then.

    >
    > >> You never restricted your original claim to tube amps.

    >
    > > You never restricted your claim to solid state amps either.

    >
    > I never made any claim about amps, YOU did.
    >
    > >> And those care least about no speakers anyway.

    >
    > > Again, very bad for the output transformers.

    >
    > Wrong, as always.


    So why do all amp manufacturers say to never run without a load?

    >
    > > But hey since you continue to say you know better than
    > > the very people who designed the amps in the first place,

    >
    > Lying, again.


    How so? The very people who design them say it's not good to run them
    without a load. You on the other hand are saying otherwise.

    > >>> And in better designs, the amp is shut down so that the
    > >>> amp is now NOT running without a proper load, which
    > >>> is the exact opposite of your claim that you've been
    > >>> running your amps on high power with no speaker attached.

    >
    > >> No its not. It just means that the protection was effective, stupid.

    >
    > > Effective protection shutting an amp down under this condition
    > > is not exactly you running an amp without a load, now is it?

    >
    > Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
    > in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.


    Amp is switched on and run at high power with no load.

    Protection stops this from happening.

    How is this CONTINUING to run said amp without a load, which is what you
    said you were doing?
     
    David Matthew Wood, Aug 30, 2006
    #33
  14. .

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > Rod Speed <> wrote


    >>>>> Some cheap power supplies don't have adequate
    >>>>> protection against damage from shorts.


    >>>>> There. Done.


    >>>> Nothing like your original.


    >>> In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection.


    >> You actually said they dont have ANY protection.


    > Protection against equipment damage, no.


    Still just plain wrong. They ALL have SOME
    protection against equipment damage.

    > That is what the thread was about.


    >>> If you had followed the thread which is what I had
    >>> been doing, "protection against damaged from shorts"
    >>> would have been assumed, as it is all in context.


    >> Its just plain wrong even with just shorted outputs,
    >> and those clearly wont the only thing being discussed
    >> because you went on to stupidly claim that they dont
    >> have any protection against running unloaded either.


    > Because you said you were running it unloaded.


    Lying, again. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
    before I ever said anything about what I was doing.

    > Now if you're running it unloaded and protection kicks in on it,


    It doesnt with PC power supplys, it either fails to
    start because some wont start without a load, or
    it runs fine unloaded if its happy to start unloaded.

    > that's not exactly continuing to run it unloaded, now is it?


    Irrelevant to what was being discussed.

    >>> Case in point, power supply that smoked when it was shorted.


    >> Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it didnt have ANY protection.


    > Protection against damage, no it obviously did not.


    It just didnt have protection AGAINST A SHORTED RAIL.

    Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it has OTHER protection.

    > That is what the thread was about.


    Lying, again.

    >>> Either way, the statement you just now made is contradictory to itself.


    >> Lying now.


    > Why did you remove the statement this was about?


    I didnt remove a thing, you pathological liar. YOU are
    the only one that has deleted anything from these posts.

    >>>>> The spikes are within tolerance.


    >>>> There is no such animal.


    >>> You must have some reallllyyyyy cleeeaaaaaaaannnnn power then.


    >> Nope, I'm just saying that there is no TOLERANCE to be within.


    > So you're basically saying that the voltage you get from a household
    > a/c outlet is a CONSTANT 120, and NEVER fluctuates at all?


    Nope, THAT THERE IS NO TOLERANCE SPECIFIED WITH SPIKES.

    >>>> And there has to be protection against mains spikes, otherwise
    >>>> no power supply thats used on the mains will last very long.


    >>> Yes, that is why we have voltage regulators. Again though, this
    >>> has nothing to do with the output of the supply being shorted.


    >> Has everything to do with your original stupid claim that
    >> some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.


    > Protection against shorts. Again, context of the thread.


    Again, pity YOU also raved on mindlessly about unloaded
    too IN YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD.

    >>> you're the one who brought up voltage spikes to begin with,
    >>> when that again has nothing to do with outputs being shorted.


    >> Pity you never restricted your original stupid claim to shorted outputs.


    > The thread was talking about shorted outputs. Take it in context.


    Pity you spewed your drivel about unloaded in your first post in this thread.

    >>> Again, in context with the thread, it should have been assumed.


    >> Nope, not when you went on to make equally stupid claims about
    >> them not having any protection against running unloaded either.


    > You said you were continuing to run it unloaded.


    Only AFTER you made that stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded.

    > But you can't continue to run it unloaded if protection kicks.


    There isnt any protection that kicks in with an unloaded pc power supply.
    Its either happy to start unloaded or it doesnt start at all unloaded.

    >>>>> Ok, so now you're saying is OK for ALL power
    >>>>> supplies to run WITHOUT a load - and yet, some
    >>>>> won't even power up without a load. Why is that?


    >>>> Basically because its cheaper to design it
    >>>> so that it needs some load to start properly.


    >>> How is it cheaper to add circuitry that senses
    >>> whether or not there is a load during start up?


    >> Never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.


    > Ok then, I have two power supplies, both with hard wired power
    > switches. One of them will fire up without a load when I flip the
    > switch. The other one will not. Why is the latter cheaper?


    Because it costs more to design a power supply so it will start unloaded.

    >>>>> and correct the problem long before
    >>>>> it has any chance to do any damage.


    >>>> You may not notice that one channel
    >>>> has died if you arent relatively close to it.


    >>> I notice it quite easily when my entire sound stage shifts, thank you.


    >> You may not notice that if you arent even in that room at the time.


    > I'm in the room when I turned it on, and that's when I would notice it.


    And if it becomes unloaded after you've turned it on,
    you may not be in the room when it becomes unloaded.

    >>>>>>>> Funny that. They're there for a reason.


    >>>>>>> Yes, to prevent damage to the output transformers from
    >>>>>> attempting to run it without a load - or in the case of a short!


    >>>>>> There are no 'output transformers'


    >>>>> Then you're not using tube amps. Ok then.


    >>>> You never restricted your original claim to tube amps.


    >>> You never restricted your claim to solid state amps either.


    >> I never made any claim about amps, YOU did.


    >>>> And those care least about no speakers anyway.


    >>> Again, very bad for the output transformers.


    >> Wrong, as always.


    > So why do all amp manufacturers say to never run without a load?


    They dont.

    >>> But hey since you continue to say you know better than
    >>> the very people who designed the amps in the first place,


    >> Lying, again.


    > How so? The very people who design them
    > say it's not good to run them without a load.


    Plenty dont.

    > You on the other hand are saying otherwise.


    Lying, again. I JUST said that it doesnt necessarily kill
    the amp, most obviously when its properly designed.

    >>>>> And in better designs, the amp is shut down so that the
    >>>>> amp is now NOT running without a proper load, which
    >>>>> is the exact opposite of your claim that you've been
    >>>>> running your amps on high power with no speaker attached.


    >>>> No its not. It just means that the protection was effective, stupid.


    >>> Effective protection shutting an amp down under this condition
    >>> is not exactly you running an amp without a load, now is it?


    >> Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
    >> in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.


    > Amp is switched on and run at high power with no load.


    > Protection stops this from happening.


    > How is this CONTINUING to run said amp without
    > a load, which is what you said you were doing?


    I didnt say that I did it like that, liar.
     
    Rod Speed, Aug 30, 2006
    #34
  15. On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 06:58:56 -0400, Meat Plow <>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:30:02 +0000, . Has Frothed:
    >
    >> My friend who built the PC for me is traveling, and I will ultimately
    >> bring the computer to him and his extensive testbench if I can't figure
    >> this out myself. But I'm really at my wit's end now and am hoping for a
    >> few useful "try this" suggestions.

    >
    >Take everyone off the main board except video card if an add on and power
    >it up. If not then the mobo may be phucked.
    >
    >--
    >
    >Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004


    Why not take out the video card too. It can certainly cause this
    problem. The MB will still power up without a video card, it just
    beeps at you (a good thing in this case).

    Neal
     
    Neal Eckhardt, Aug 31, 2006
    #35
  16. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > > Rod Speed <> wrote

    >
    > >>>>> Some cheap power supplies don't have adequate
    > >>>>> protection against damage from shorts.

    >
    > >>>>> There. Done.

    >
    > >>>> Nothing like your original.

    >
    > >>> In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection.

    >
    > >> You actually said they dont have ANY protection.

    >
    > > Protection against equipment damage, no.

    >
    > Still just plain wrong. They ALL have SOME
    > protection against equipment damage.


    Ok fine. But some isn't always good enough, in which case I don't
    consider the equipment protected.

    >
    > > That is what the thread was about.

    >
    > >>> If you had followed the thread which is what I had
    > >>> been doing, "protection against damaged from shorts"
    > >>> would have been assumed, as it is all in context.

    >
    > >> Its just plain wrong even with just shorted outputs,
    > >> and those clearly wont the only thing being discussed
    > >> because you went on to stupidly claim that they dont
    > >> have any protection against running unloaded either.

    >
    > > Because you said you were running it unloaded.

    >
    > Lying, again. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
    > before I ever said anything about what I was doing.


    Lying that you said you were running it unloaded?

    let's look back a bit:

    Me: since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

    You: Oh bullshit.

    me: really? Why don't you try it then.

    You: Done that plenty of times thanks."

    hmm..

    >
    > > Now if you're running it unloaded and protection kicks in on it,

    >
    > It doesnt with PC power supplys, it either fails to
    > start because some wont start without a load, or
    > it runs fine unloaded if its happy to start unloaded.


    If it runs unloaded, it's not running fine at all. Quite unstable
    actually.

    >
    > > that's not exactly continuing to run it unloaded, now is it?

    >
    > Irrelevant to what was being discussed.


    Not if it is shut off in order to not run unloaded.

    >
    > >>> Case in point, power supply that smoked when it was shorted.

    >
    > >> Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it didnt have ANY
    > >> protection.

    >
    > > Protection against damage, no it obviously did not.

    >
    > It just didnt have protection AGAINST A SHORTED RAIL.


    And therefore didn't have equipment protection against a shorted rail.
    Yes. Well, I also consider this protection against equipment damage as
    well - in this case, the supply itself.

    >
    > Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it has OTHER protection.


    Took out the mobo when this happened, actually. Not my idea of
    protection.

    >
    > > That is what the thread was about.

    >
    > Lying, again.


    OP said it didn't power up because a cable was not connected correctly.


    >
    > >>> Either way, the statement you just now made is contradictory to itself.

    >
    > >> Lying now.

    >
    > > Why did you remove the statement this was about?

    >
    > I didnt remove a thing, you pathological liar. YOU are
    > the only one that has deleted anything from these posts.


    Oh crap.. lol my mistake! I took out your comment along with others in
    order to keep the message short. Didn't mean to do that. Oops! ^_^

    >
    > >>>>> The spikes are within tolerance.

    >
    > >>>> There is no such animal.

    >
    > >>> You must have some reallllyyyyy cleeeaaaaaaaannnnn power then.

    >
    > >> Nope, I'm just saying that there is no TOLERANCE to be within.

    >
    > > So you're basically saying that the voltage you get from a household
    > > a/c outlet is a CONSTANT 120, and NEVER fluctuates at all?

    >
    > Nope, THAT THERE IS NO TOLERANCE SPECIFIED WITH SPIKES.


    If the power supply handles it fine (which they all do to a degree),
    then it has tolerance. It has to, since household current is not always
    stable. Storms, big motors kicking on and off, etc.
    Again, voltage regulation.

    >
    > >>>> And there has to be protection against mains spikes, otherwise
    > >>>> no power supply thats used on the mains will last very long.

    >
    > >>> Yes, that is why we have voltage regulators. Again though, this
    > >>> has nothing to do with the output of the supply being shorted.

    >
    > >> Has everything to do with your original stupid claim that
    > >> some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.

    >
    > > Protection against shorts. Again, context of the thread.

    >
    > Again, pity YOU also raved on mindlessly about unloaded
    > too IN YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD.


    I have one running in this computer that will not stay on if there is
    nothing connected to the 5v good power line.

    >
    > >>> you're the one who brought up voltage spikes to begin with,
    > >>> when that again has nothing to do with outputs being shorted.

    >
    > >> Pity you never restricted your original stupid claim to shorted outputs.

    >
    > > The thread was talking about shorted outputs. Take it in context.

    >
    > Pity you spewed your drivel about unloaded in your first post in this thread.


    PG, yes. I have such a beast running in this machine.

    >
    > >>> Again, in context with the thread, it should have been assumed.

    >
    > >> Nope, not when you went on to make equally stupid claims about
    > >> them not having any protection against running unloaded either.

    >
    > > You said you were continuing to run it unloaded.

    >
    > Only AFTER you made that stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded.


    Doesn't matter. Obviously there is some protection against running it
    unloaded - in which case I don't consider that actually running unloaded
    at all.

    >
    > > But you can't continue to run it unloaded if protection kicks.

    >
    > There isnt any protection that kicks in with an unloaded pc power supply.
    > Its either happy to start unloaded or it doesnt start at all unloaded.


    If it doesn't start unloaded, then that's protection against running
    non-stable, due to it being unloaded.

    >
    > >>>>> Ok, so now you're saying is OK for ALL power
    > >>>>> supplies to run WITHOUT a load - and yet, some
    > >>>>> won't even power up without a load. Why is that?

    >
    > >>>> Basically because its cheaper to design it
    > >>>> so that it needs some load to start properly.

    >
    > >>> How is it cheaper to add circuitry that senses
    > >>> whether or not there is a load during start up?

    >
    > >> Never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

    >
    > > Ok then, I have two power supplies, both with hard wired power
    > > switches. One of them will fire up without a load when I flip the
    > > switch. The other one will not. Why is the latter cheaper?

    >
    > Because it costs more to design a power supply so it will start unloaded.
    >
    > >>>>> and correct the problem long before
    > >>>>> it has any chance to do any damage.

    >
    > >>>> You may not notice that one channel
    > >>>> has died if you arent relatively close to it.

    >
    > >>> I notice it quite easily when my entire sound stage shifts, thank you.

    >
    > >> You may not notice that if you arent even in that room at the time.

    >
    > > I'm in the room when I turned it on, and that's when I would notice it.

    >
    > And if it becomes unloaded after you've turned it on,
    > you may not be in the room when it becomes unloaded.


    Which never happens in my house.

    >
    > >>>>>>>> Funny that. They're there for a reason.

    >
    > >>>>>>> Yes, to prevent damage to the output transformers from
    > >>>>>> attempting to run it without a load - or in the case of a short!

    >
    > >>>>>> There are no 'output transformers'

    >
    > >>>>> Then you're not using tube amps. Ok then.

    >
    > >>>> You never restricted your original claim to tube amps.

    >
    > >>> You never restricted your claim to solid state amps either.

    >
    > >> I never made any claim about amps, YOU did.

    >
    > >>>> And those care least about no speakers anyway.

    >
    > >>> Again, very bad for the output transformers.

    >
    > >> Wrong, as always.

    >
    > > So why do all amp manufacturers say to never run without a load?

    >
    > They dont.


    Plenty of them do - even for tube amps.

    >
    > >>> But hey since you continue to say you know better than
    > >>> the very people who designed the amps in the first place,

    >
    > >> Lying, again.

    >
    > > How so? The very people who design them
    > > say it's not good to run them without a load.

    >
    > Plenty dont.


    More of them do.

    >
    > > You on the other hand are saying otherwise.

    >
    > Lying, again. I JUST said that it doesnt necessarily kill
    > the amp, most obviously when its properly designed.


    Properly designed as in protection against this condition. Again, not
    the same as running without a load.

    >
    > >>>>> And in better designs, the amp is shut down so that the
    > >>>>> amp is now NOT running without a proper load, which
    > >>>>> is the exact opposite of your claim that you've been
    > >>>>> running your amps on high power with no speaker attached.

    >
    > >>>> No its not. It just means that the protection was effective, stupid.

    >
    > >>> Effective protection shutting an amp down under this condition
    > >>> is not exactly you running an amp without a load, now is it?

    >
    > >> Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
    > >> in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.

    >
    > > Amp is switched on and run at high power with no load.

    >
    > > Protection stops this from happening.

    >
    > > How is this CONTINUING to run said amp without
    > > a load, which is what you said you were doing?

    >
    > I didnt say that I did it like that, liar.


    You said yours ran without a load and that continuing to run without one
    (if a speaker becomes disconnected) wouldn't hurt it.
     
    David Matthew Wood, Sep 1, 2006
    #36
  17. .

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > Rod Speed <> wrote
    >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    >>> Rod Speed <> wrote


    >>>>>>> Some cheap power supplies don't have adequate
    >>>>>>> protection against damage from shorts.


    >>>>>>> There. Done.


    >>>>>> Nothing like your original.


    >>>>> In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection.


    >>>> You actually said they dont have ANY protection.


    >>> Protection against equipment damage, no.


    >> Still just plain wrong. They ALL have SOME
    >> protection against equipment damage.


    > Ok fine. But some isn't always good enough,


    Again, nothing like your original.

    > in which case I don't consider the equipment protected.


    Again, nothing like your original.

    >>> That is what the thread was about.


    >>>>> If you had followed the thread which is what I had
    >>>>> been doing, "protection against damaged from shorts"
    >>>>> would have been assumed, as it is all in context.


    >>>> Its just plain wrong even with just shorted outputs, and
    >>>> those clearly werent the only thing being discussed
    >>>> because you went on to stupidly claim that they dont
    >>>> have any protection against running unloaded either.


    >>> Because you said you were running it unloaded.


    >> Lying, again. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
    >> before I ever said anything about what I was doing.


    > Lying that you said you were running it unloaded?


    Lying about the BECAUSE. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
    about running the power supply unloaded BEFORE I ever said a thing.

    > let's look back a bit:


    > Me: since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.


    > You: Oh bullshit.


    > me: really? Why don't you try it then.


    > You: Done that plenty of times thanks."


    > hmm..


    Humming aint gunna save your bacon, you clearly made that
    stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded BEFORE
    I said anything, so you are clearly lying with your BECAUSE.

    >>> Now if you're running it unloaded and protection kicks in on it,


    >> It doesnt with PC power supplys, it either fails to
    >> start because some wont start without a load, or
    >> it runs fine unloaded if its happy to start unloaded.


    > If it runs unloaded, it's not running fine at all.


    Wrong, as always.

    > Quite unstable actually.


    Wrong, as always.

    >>> that's not exactly continuing to run it unloaded, now is it?


    >> Irrelevant to what was being discussed.


    > Not if it is shut off in order to not run unloaded.


    Pity that if it does shut down ITS CLEARLY PROTECTED AGAINST
    RUNNING THAT WAY, and if it doesnt shut down IT CANT DAMAGE
    ANYTHING BECAUSE NOTHING IS CONNECTED TO IS.

    >>>>> Case in point, power supply that smoked when it was shorted.


    >>>> Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it didnt have ANY
    >>>> protection.


    >>> Protection against damage, no it obviously did not.


    >> It just didnt have protection AGAINST A SHORTED RAIL.


    > And therefore didn't have equipment protection against a shorted rail.
    > Yes. Well, I also consider this protection against equipment damage
    > as well - in this case, the supply itself.


    Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
    POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

    ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
    PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.

    >> Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it has OTHER protection.


    > Took out the mobo when this happened, actually. Not my idea of protection.


    Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
    POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

    ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
    PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.

    >>> That is what the thread was about.


    >> Lying, again.


    > OP said it didn't power up because a cable was not connected correctly.


    Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
    POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.

    No evidence that the OPs power supply damaged anything.

    >>>>> Either way, the statement you just now made is contradictory to itself.


    >>>> Lying now.


    >>> Why did you remove the statement this was about?


    >> I didnt remove a thing, you pathological liar. YOU are
    >> the only one that has deleted anything from these posts.


    > Oh crap.. lol my mistake! I took out your comment along with others
    > in order to keep the message short. Didn't mean to do that. Oops!
    > ^_^


    A Jap would at least have the decency to disembowel itself |-)

    >>>>>>> The spikes are within tolerance.


    >>>>>> There is no such animal.


    >>>>> You must have some reallllyyyyy cleeeaaaaaaaannnnn power then.


    >>>> Nope, I'm just saying that there is no TOLERANCE to be within.


    >>> So you're basically saying that the voltage you get from a household
    >>> a/c outlet is a CONSTANT 120, and NEVER fluctuates at all?


    >> Nope, THAT THERE IS NO TOLERANCE SPECIFIED WITH SPIKES.


    > If the power supply handles it fine (which they
    > all do to a degree), then it has tolerance.


    Thats not what 'within tolerance' means.

    > It has to, since household current is not always stable. Storms,
    > big motors kicking on and off, etc. Again, voltage regulation.


    THERE IS NO TOLERANCE TO BE WITHIN.

    >>>>>> And there has to be protection against mains spikes, otherwise
    >>>>>> no power supply thats used on the mains will last very long.


    >>>>> Yes, that is why we have voltage regulators. Again though, this
    >>>>> has nothing to do with the output of the supply being shorted.


    >>>> Has everything to do with your original stupid claim that
    >>>> some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.


    >>> Protection against shorts. Again, context of the thread.


    >> Again, pity YOU also raved on mindlessly about unloaded
    >> too IN YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD.


    > I have one running in this computer that will not stay on
    > if there is nothing connected to the 5v good power line.


    No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
    fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.

    Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
    IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.

    >>>>> you're the one who brought up voltage spikes to begin with,
    >>>>> when that again has nothing to do with outputs being shorted.


    >>>> Pity you never restricted your original stupid claim to shorted outputs.


    >>> The thread was talking about shorted outputs. Take it in context.


    >> Pity you spewed your drivel about unloaded in your first post in this thread.


    > PG, yes. I have such a beast running in this machine.


    No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
    fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.

    Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
    IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.

    >>>>> Again, in context with the thread, it should have been assumed.


    >>>> Nope, not when you went on to make equally stupid claims about
    >>>> them not having any protection against running unloaded either.


    >>> You said you were continuing to run it unloaded.


    >> Only AFTER you made that stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded.


    > Doesn't matter.


    Corse it does.

    > Obviously there is some protection against running it unloaded


    Nope, it just doesnt start that way.

    > - in which case I don't consider that actually running unloaded at all.


    There is no PROTECTION, it just doesnt start unloaded.

    >>> But you can't continue to run it unloaded if protection kicks.


    >> There isnt any protection that kicks in with an unloaded pc power supply.
    >> Its either happy to start unloaded or it doesnt start at all unloaded.


    > If it doesn't start unloaded, then that's protection
    > against running non-stable, due to it being unloaded.


    Wrong, as always. There is no protection, it just doesnt start
    unloaded because of how its designed, the design needs a load
    to start because thats the cheapest way to design a switcher.

    IT COST MORE TO DESIGN THE POWER SUPPLY TO START UNLOADED.

    >>>>>>> Ok, so now you're saying is OK for ALL power
    >>>>>>> supplies to run WITHOUT a load - and yet, some
    >>>>>>> won't even power up without a load. Why is that?


    >>>>>> Basically because its cheaper to design it
    >>>>>> so that it needs some load to start properly.


    >>>>> How is it cheaper to add circuitry that senses
    >>>>> whether or not there is a load during start up?


    >>>> Never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.


    >>> Ok then, I have two power supplies, both with hard wired power
    >>> switches. One of them will fire up without a load when I flip the
    >>> switch. The other one will not. Why is the latter cheaper?


    >> Because it costs more to design a power supply so it will start unloaded.


    >>>>>>> and correct the problem long before
    >>>>>>> it has any chance to do any damage.


    >>>>>> You may not notice that one channel
    >>>>>> has died if you arent relatively close to it.


    >>>>> I notice it quite easily when my entire sound stage shifts, thank you.


    >>>> You may not notice that if you arent even in that room at the time.


    >>> I'm in the room when I turned it on, and that's when I would notice it.


    >> And if it becomes unloaded after you've turned it on,
    >> you may not be in the room when it becomes unloaded.


    > Which never happens in my house.


    You and your house are completely and utterly irrelevant.

    >>>>>>>>>> Funny that. They're there for a reason.


    >>>>>>>>> Yes, to prevent damage to the output transformers from
    >>>>>>>> attempting to run it without a load - or in the case of a short!


    >>>>>>>> There are no 'output transformers'


    >>>>>>> Then you're not using tube amps. Ok then.


    >>>>>> You never restricted your original claim to tube amps.


    >>>>> You never restricted your claim to solid state amps either.


    >>>> I never made any claim about amps, YOU did.


    >>>>>> And those care least about no speakers anyway.


    >>>>> Again, very bad for the output transformers.


    >>>> Wrong, as always.


    >>> So why do all amp manufacturers say to never run without a load?


    >> They dont.


    > Plenty of them do - even for tube amps.


    Wrong, as always. And you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.

    >>>>> But hey since you continue to say you know better than
    >>>>> the very people who designed the amps in the first place,


    >>>> Lying, again.


    >>> How so? The very people who design them
    >>> say it's not good to run them without a load.


    >> Plenty dont.


    > More of them do.


    You stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.

    >>> You on the other hand are saying otherwise.


    >> Lying, again. I JUST said that it doesnt necessarily kill
    >> the amp, most obviously when its properly designed.


    > Properly designed as in protection against this condition.
    > Again, not the same as running without a load.


    Plenty of amps run fine without a load and without protection cutting in.

    >>>>>>> And in better designs, the amp is shut down so that the
    >>>>>>> amp is now NOT running without a proper load, which
    >>>>>>> is the exact opposite of your claim that you've been
    >>>>>>> running your amps on high power with no speaker attached.


    >>>>>> No its not. It just means that the protection was effective, stupid.


    >>>>> Effective protection shutting an amp down under this condition
    >>>>> is not exactly you running an amp without a load, now is it?


    >>>> Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
    >>>> in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.


    >>> Amp is switched on and run at high power with no load.


    >>> Protection stops this from happening.


    >>> How is this CONTINUING to run said amp without
    >>> a load, which is what you said you were doing?


    >> I didnt say that I did it like that, liar.


    > You said yours ran without a load and that continuing to run
    > without one (if a speaker becomes disconnected) wouldn't hurt it.


    Yep, and I proved that the amp didnt give a damn when that happened.
     
    Rod Speed, Sep 1, 2006
    #37
  18. In article <>,
    "Rod Speed" <> wrote:

    > David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > > Rod Speed <> wrote
    > >> David Matthew Wood <> wrote
    > >>> Rod Speed <> wrote

    >
    > >>>>>>> Some cheap power supplies don't have adequate
    > >>>>>>> protection against damage from shorts.

    >
    > >>>>>>> There. Done.

    >
    > >>>>>> Nothing like your original.

    >
    > >>>>> In my original, I said cheap power supplies don't have protection.

    >
    > >>>> You actually said they dont have ANY protection.

    >
    > >>> Protection against equipment damage, no.

    >
    > >> Still just plain wrong. They ALL have SOME
    > >> protection against equipment damage.

    >
    > > Ok fine. But some isn't always good enough,

    >
    > Again, nothing like your original.


    And?

    >
    > > in which case I don't consider the equipment protected.

    >
    > Again, nothing like your original.


    I said this a couple of times actually.

    >
    > >>> That is what the thread was about.

    >
    > >>>>> If you had followed the thread which is what I had
    > >>>>> been doing, "protection against damaged from shorts"
    > >>>>> would have been assumed, as it is all in context.

    >
    > >>>> Its just plain wrong even with just shorted outputs, and
    > >>>> those clearly werent the only thing being discussed
    > >>>> because you went on to stupidly claim that they dont
    > >>>> have any protection against running unloaded either.

    >
    > >>> Because you said you were running it unloaded.

    >
    > >> Lying, again. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
    > >> before I ever said anything about what I was doing.

    >
    > > Lying that you said you were running it unloaded?

    >
    > Lying about the BECAUSE. You made that stupid pig ignorant claim
    > about running the power supply unloaded BEFORE I ever said a thing.


    Nope.

    >
    > > let's look back a bit:

    >
    > > Me: since it is bad for a power supply to run without a load.

    >
    > > You: Oh bullshit.

    >
    > > me: really? Why don't you try it then.

    >
    > > You: Done that plenty of times thanks."

    >
    > > hmm..

    >
    > Humming aint gunna save your bacon, you clearly made that
    > stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded BEFORE
    > I said anything, so you are clearly lying with your BECAUSE.


    Nope.

    >
    > >>> Now if you're running it unloaded and protection kicks in on it,

    >
    > >> It doesnt with PC power supplys, it either fails to
    > >> start because some wont start without a load, or
    > >> it runs fine unloaded if its happy to start unloaded.

    >
    > > If it runs unloaded, it's not running fine at all.

    >
    > Wrong, as always.


    Nope.

    >
    > > Quite unstable actually.

    >
    > Wrong, as always.


    So now you're saying that power supplies are perfectly stable under NO
    load......

    nope.

    >
    > >>> that's not exactly continuing to run it unloaded, now is it?

    >
    > >> Irrelevant to what was being discussed.

    >
    > > Not if it is shut off in order to not run unloaded.

    >
    > Pity that if it does shut down ITS CLEARLY PROTECTED AGAINST
    > RUNNING THAT WAY, and if it doesnt shut down IT CANT DAMAGE
    > ANYTHING BECAUSE NOTHING IS CONNECTED TO IS.


    How would it damage something that isn't connected to it? Where did
    that come from?

    >
    > >>>>> Case in point, power supply that smoked when it was shorted.

    >
    > >>>> Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it didnt have ANY
    > >>>> protection.

    >
    > >>> Protection against damage, no it obviously did not.

    >
    > >> It just didnt have protection AGAINST A SHORTED RAIL.

    >
    > > And therefore didn't have equipment protection against a shorted rail.
    > > Yes. Well, I also consider this protection against equipment damage
    > > as well - in this case, the supply itself.

    >
    > Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
    > POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.
    >
    > ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
    > PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.


    uh huh - and the better ones do.

    >
    > >> Says nothing useful what so ever about whether it has OTHER protection.

    >
    > > Took out the mobo when this happened, actually. Not my idea of protection.

    >
    > Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
    > POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.
    >
    > ALL THAT SHOWS IS THAT THOSE DONT HAVE
    > PROTECTION AGAINST A SHORTED OUTPUT.


    uh huh - and again, the better ones do.

    >
    > >>> That is what the thread was about.

    >
    > >> Lying, again.

    >
    > > OP said it didn't power up because a cable was not connected correctly.

    >
    > Pity you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed that SOME CHEAP
    > POWER SUPPLYS DONT HAVE ANY PROTECTION.
    >
    > No evidence that the OPs power supply damaged anything.


    I never said the OP's power supply did damage anything! His old PS died
    so he replaced it. The new one didn't power up - he had something
    connection wrong. He fixed the connection and then his machine booted
    up fine. Where did I say otherwise?

    >
    > >>>>> Either way, the statement you just now made is contradictory to itself.

    >
    > >>>> Lying now.

    >
    > >>> Why did you remove the statement this was about?

    >
    > >> I didnt remove a thing, you pathological liar. YOU are
    > >> the only one that has deleted anything from these posts.

    >
    > > Oh crap.. lol my mistake! I took out your comment along with others
    > > in order to keep the message short. Didn't mean to do that. Oops!
    > > ^_^

    >
    > A Jap would at least have the decency to disembowel itself |-)


    Wow... at first I thought you just liked to troll in these groups to
    argue and I wasn't going to stoop to your level, but damn.... you really
    are an ass!

    >
    > >>>>>>> The spikes are within tolerance.

    >
    > >>>>>> There is no such animal.

    >
    > >>>>> You must have some reallllyyyyy cleeeaaaaaaaannnnn power then.

    >
    > >>>> Nope, I'm just saying that there is no TOLERANCE to be within.

    >
    > >>> So you're basically saying that the voltage you get from a household
    > >>> a/c outlet is a CONSTANT 120, and NEVER fluctuates at all?

    >
    > >> Nope, THAT THERE IS NO TOLERANCE SPECIFIED WITH SPIKES.

    >
    > > If the power supply handles it fine (which they
    > > all do to a degree), then it has tolerance.

    >
    > Thats not what 'within tolerance' means.
    >
    > > It has to, since household current is not always stable. Storms,
    > > big motors kicking on and off, etc. Again, voltage regulation.

    >
    > THERE IS NO TOLERANCE TO BE WITHIN.


    It has to be designed to tolerate normal and unavoidable voltage
    fluctuations. If the fluctuations are within a certain, threshold they
    are within tolerance. If input voltage is outside this threshold, the
    PS will shut down. If the input voltage remains within this threshold,
    it is within tolerance. An AC supply is not perfectly 100% stable so
    therefore, a PS has to be designed to tolerate this to a point.

    >
    > >>>>>> And there has to be protection against mains spikes, otherwise
    > >>>>>> no power supply thats used on the mains will last very long.

    >
    > >>>>> Yes, that is why we have voltage regulators. Again though, this
    > >>>>> has nothing to do with the output of the supply being shorted.

    >
    > >>>> Has everything to do with your original stupid claim that
    > >>>> some cheap power supplys dont have ANY protection.

    >
    > >>> Protection against shorts. Again, context of the thread.

    >
    > >> Again, pity YOU also raved on mindlessly about unloaded
    > >> too IN YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD.

    >
    > > I have one running in this computer that will not stay on
    > > if there is nothing connected to the 5v good power line.

    >
    > No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
    > fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.
    >
    > Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
    > IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.


    You said in an earlier post that ALL power supplies start up fine and
    stay running without the 5v Power Good line being connected. Yet, I
    have one in this machine that does not stay powered if the 5v Power Good
    line is not connected.

    >
    > >>>>> you're the one who brought up voltage spikes to begin with,
    > >>>>> when that again has nothing to do with outputs being shorted.

    >
    > >>>> Pity you never restricted your original stupid claim to shorted outputs.

    >
    > >>> The thread was talking about shorted outputs. Take it in context.

    >
    > >> Pity you spewed your drivel about unloaded in your first post in this
    > >> thread.

    >
    > > PG, yes. I have such a beast running in this machine.

    >
    > No surprises there, its more common than power supplys that will start up
    > fine unloaded. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER TO DESIGN THEM LIKE THAT.
    >
    > Doesnt say anything useful ABOUT ANYTHING GETTING DAMAGED
    > IN THAT CONFIG. THE SUPPLY JUST FAILS TO START.


    Again....
    You said in an earlier post that ALL power supplies start up fine and
    stay running without the 5v Power Good line being connected. Yet, I
    have one in this machine that does not stay powered if the 5v Power Good
    line is not connected.

    >
    > >>>>> Again, in context with the thread, it should have been assumed.

    >
    > >>>> Nope, not when you went on to make equally stupid claims about
    > >>>> them not having any protection against running unloaded either.

    >
    > >>> You said you were continuing to run it unloaded.

    >
    > >> Only AFTER you made that stupid pig ignorant claim about running unloaded.

    >
    > > Doesn't matter.

    >
    > Corse it does.
    >
    > > Obviously there is some protection against running it unloaded

    >
    > Nope, it just doesnt start that way.
    >
    > > - in which case I don't consider that actually running unloaded at all.

    >
    > There is no PROTECTION, it just doesnt start unloaded.
    >
    > >>> But you can't continue to run it unloaded if protection kicks.

    >
    > >> There isnt any protection that kicks in with an unloaded pc power supply.
    > >> Its either happy to start unloaded or it doesnt start at all unloaded.

    >
    > > If it doesn't start unloaded, then that's protection
    > > against running non-stable, due to it being unloaded.

    >
    > Wrong, as always. There is no protection, it just doesnt start
    > unloaded because of how its designed, the design needs a load
    > to start because thats the cheapest way to design a switcher.
    >
    > IT COST MORE TO DESIGN THE POWER SUPPLY TO START UNLOADED.


    Even when power is switched on an off by a hard wired switch?
    Even some AT supplies won't stay on without a load. The one I have that
    will not stay on unless I at least have a hard drive or two connected to
    it is an AT supply. Again, how is this cheaper?

    >
    > >>>>>>> Ok, so now you're saying is OK for ALL power
    > >>>>>>> supplies to run WITHOUT a load - and yet, some
    > >>>>>>> won't even power up without a load. Why is that?

    >
    > >>>>>> Basically because its cheaper to design it
    > >>>>>> so that it needs some load to start properly.

    >
    > >>>>> How is it cheaper to add circuitry that senses
    > >>>>> whether or not there is a load during start up?

    >
    > >>>> Never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

    >
    > >>> Ok then, I have two power supplies, both with hard wired power
    > >>> switches. One of them will fire up without a load when I flip the
    > >>> switch. The other one will not. Why is the latter cheaper?

    >
    > >> Because it costs more to design a power supply so it will start unloaded.

    >
    > >>>>>>> and correct the problem long before
    > >>>>>>> it has any chance to do any damage.

    >
    > >>>>>> You may not notice that one channel
    > >>>>>> has died if you arent relatively close to it.

    >
    > >>>>> I notice it quite easily when my entire sound stage shifts, thank you.

    >
    > >>>> You may not notice that if you arent even in that room at the time.

    >
    > >>> I'm in the room when I turned it on, and that's when I would notice it.

    >
    > >> And if it becomes unloaded after you've turned it on,
    > >> you may not be in the room when it becomes unloaded.

    >
    > > Which never happens in my house.

    >
    > You and your house are completely and utterly irrelevant.
    >
    > >>>>>>>>>> Funny that. They're there for a reason.

    >
    > >>>>>>>>> Yes, to prevent damage to the output transformers from
    > >>>>>>>> attempting to run it without a load - or in the case of a short!

    >
    > >>>>>>>> There are no 'output transformers'

    >
    > >>>>>>> Then you're not using tube amps. Ok then.

    >
    > >>>>>> You never restricted your original claim to tube amps.

    >
    > >>>>> You never restricted your claim to solid state amps either.

    >
    > >>>> I never made any claim about amps, YOU did.

    >
    > >>>>>> And those care least about no speakers anyway.

    >
    > >>>>> Again, very bad for the output transformers.

    >
    > >>>> Wrong, as always.

    >
    > >>> So why do all amp manufacturers say to never run without a load?

    >
    > >> They dont.

    >
    > > Plenty of them do - even for tube amps.

    >
    > Wrong, as always. And you stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.


    And now you're saying none of them say this, which is wrong.

    >
    > >>>>> But hey since you continue to say you know better than
    > >>>>> the very people who designed the amps in the first place,

    >
    > >>>> Lying, again.

    >
    > >>> How so? The very people who design them
    > >>> say it's not good to run them without a load.

    >
    > >> Plenty dont.

    >
    > > More of them do.

    >
    > You stupidly pig ignorantly claimed ALL.


    You give me that same line even when I say some.

    >
    > >>> You on the other hand are saying otherwise.

    >
    > >> Lying, again. I JUST said that it doesnt necessarily kill
    > >> the amp, most obviously when its properly designed.

    >
    > > Properly designed as in protection against this condition.
    > > Again, not the same as running without a load.

    >
    > Plenty of amps run fine without a load and without protection cutting in.


    Just as plenty of them don't.

    > >>>>>>> And in better designs, the amp is shut down so that the
    > >>>>>>> amp is now NOT running without a proper load, which
    > >>>>>>> is the exact opposite of your claim that you've been
    > >>>>>>> running your amps on high power with no speaker attached.

    >
    > >>>>>> No its not. It just means that the protection was effective, stupid.

    >
    > >>>>> Effective protection shutting an amp down under this condition
    > >>>>> is not exactly you running an amp without a load, now is it?

    >
    > >>>> Pity you only tried to run that line after your nose was rubbed
    > >>>> in the terminal stupidity of your original claim about amps.

    >
    > >>> Amp is switched on and run at high power with no load.

    >
    > >>> Protection stops this from happening.

    >
    > >>> How is this CONTINUING to run said amp without
    > >>> a load, which is what you said you were doing?

    >
    > >> I didnt say that I did it like that, liar.

    >
    > > You said yours ran without a load and that continuing to run
    > > without one (if a speaker becomes disconnected) wouldn't hurt it.

    >
    > Yep, and I proved that the amp didnt give a damn when that happened.


    As I can (and have in the past) proved that a lot of amps do give a damn
    if this happens.
     
    David Matthew Wood, Sep 1, 2006
    #38
  19. .

    Guest

    .. wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > "Rod Speed" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Unplug everything except the motherboard
    > > and see if the cpu fan comes on and stays on.
    > >
    > > If it does, plug the hard drive in and see if it will boot
    > > with just the motherboard and hard drive connected etc.

    >
    > Thanks to you and all who responded.
    >
    > My original post asserted that I wasn't an engineer. True. But I
    > solved the problem with your advice above, thinking systematically like
    > an engineer. I disconnected the power supply and connected everything
    > one by one, and the computer is now fully functional. From a little
    > research I did, I think my issue was that I'd connected the 3.5" floppy
    > power incorrectly or partially.


    Missed a pin huh? :) From the sounds of it, it was probably not a hot
    wire... Good thing, smoke a floppy drive otherwise. :)

    > I also appreciate everyone's point about not being cheap. In 15+ years
    > of heavy computer use, i've never had a PSU go bad on me. But given all
    > the heartache this burnout caused, I'll from now on spend the extra
    > money for an Antec or other name brand supply. If I'd lost something
    > really important and known that an extra $40-50 would have averted the
    > disaster, I'd have been kicking myself.


    Do yourself a big favor, plan a disaster recovery situation now, while
    you can. IE: Backups. :) Backup the data your concerned with. PSU unit
    failures are a common thing, regardless of the name stamped on the PSU
    unit. All PSU's will eventually fail, that's life. The idea is, your
    data doesn't go down with the machine. :)
     
    , Sep 2, 2006
    #39
  20. .

    Guest

    Dave C. wrote:

    > Poor quality power supplies have two very nasty habits:


    I've seen an Antec and a Seatronic (neither are considered, poor
    quality) both die, and both took out the cpu/mainboard. You could still
    boot the cpu on another board, but diagnostics with hotcpu test would
    indicate bad l2 cache on the processor. You could verify this later by
    failed windows installations.

    > 1) They die early (that is GUARANTEED, btw), often shortly after leaving
    > the factory


    Really depends on several factors... Power line conditions to your
    home, weather conditions outside your home, whether or not your home
    has a good electrical ground to earth...

    > 2) With no built-in component protection, they often take other components
    > with them, when they die. In other words, cheap power supplies kill


    A power surge strong enough is going to pass most/all PSU units and
    toast other hardware.

    > motherboards, hard drives, CPUs, RAM, etc.
    >
    > Your post is about TWO poor quality power supplies. I suspect that the
    > first one died ungracefully, taking the motherboard out with it. The second
    > one can't even power itself, apparently.


    Nah....It really depends. I agree, he's being cheap, but.. :)

    > It's your money, but people don't seem to understand that often spending an
    > extra 40 bucks or so on a GOOD power supply can save a complete rebuild,
    > costing hundreds of bucks. -Dave


    Tell that to emachine. :) Best Tec strikes again should have been it's
    selling logo.. hehe

    The standby voltage on a bad best tec, will jump to 6+ volts, toasting
    the poor mainboard. Emachine knew of this problem for several years. I
    wonder how many emachine owners replaced a power supply, only to find
    the board/cpu were bad too? heh.
     
    , Sep 2, 2006
    #40
    1. Advertisements

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.
Similar Threads
  1. Paminifarm

    Fried Another Power Supply Box

    Paminifarm, Nov 24, 2004, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    902
    Duck ducking
    Nov 25, 2004
  2. that one

    won't power on: power supply or motherboard?

    that one, Apr 19, 2005, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    8
    Views:
    7,913
    Blinky the Shark
    Apr 21, 2005
  3. jeff
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,386
  4. Replies:
    2
    Views:
    781
  5. nick
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,925
  6. Mark

    Fried a Power Supply

    Mark, Oct 16, 2003, in forum: Computer Information
    Replies:
    17
    Views:
    2,006
  7. mr x
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    689
  8. udz2002

    Replaced power supply now computer won't boot

    udz2002, Sep 23, 2010, in forum: Computer Support
    Replies:
    38
    Views:
    8,736
    Patrick
    Sep 27, 2010
Loading...