poll - did you miss the voting about dividing r.p.d?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Roland Karlsson, Oct 22, 2004.

  1. You can't participate in an email discussion list without knowing how
    to use email. You can't participate in an online web forum without
    knowing how to use the web. You can't participate in discussions at
    an in-person gathering without knowing the language and at least a bit
    of the social skills. You can't pariticipate in a Usenet newsgroup
    without knowing how to use Usenet.
    David Dyer-Bennet, Oct 25, 2004
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  2. Roland Karlsson

    Jim Townsend Guest

    You weren't following this group a month or so ago :)

    Ed's suggestions were critical then. At least 20% of the posts
    here were completely off topic and crossposted to at least a dozen other
    unrelated groups so the mass exposure would guarantee plenty of replies
    resulting in long threads.

    Not only that, but most of these had vulgar, rude and obscene titles
    that you'd always see as you browsed the unread list when you checked the

    We had one or more subscribers with obvious emotional problems making
    an intense effort to upset this group. They must have gone through every
    Google style news site and *every* anonymous mail-to-news service that was
    available on the net.

    I guess you could say rec.photo.digital did have serious problems.. and that's
    why some of us are gun-shy :)
    Jim Townsend, Oct 25, 2004
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  3. Roland Karlsson

    Jim Townsend Guest

    dj_nme wrote:

    From what I've gathered so far:

    In a nutshell, SLR-like means it's "kind of like" an SLR, but not really
    an SLR. Same goes for ZLR-like.

    In this case the term 'reflex' *must* be totally disregarded. It only serves
    to confuse the issue. A mirror of any sort *isn't* required for a camera to be
    SLR-like or ZLR-like.

    If you can use multiple lenses, the it's a SINGLE lens reflex.

    If the camera has a single fixed lens, it's a ZOOM lens reflex.

    Again.. It does not matter whether there is any sort of mirror or not... The
    term 'like' removes that requirement.
    Jim Townsend, Oct 25, 2004
  4. Roland Karlsson

    Jim Townsend Guest

    The G2 has a separate optical viewfinder. The viewfinder has it's
    own set of lenses that track with the main lens when you zoom.
    This allows the user to always see the the same field of view as the
    main lens.

    Using the viewfinder up close can result in parallax error because it
    won't see exactly what the main lens sees. SLR's and ZLR's just don't
    have this problem because there is no separate viewfinder.. The user
    looks through the main lens, not a secondary one.

    Do we have to ignore the fact that the G2 doesn't have a reflex mirror
    and that it has two completely separate lens systems in order to call
    it a ZLR ? (Which supposedly is a fixed lens SINGLE LENS reflex camera).

    It seems classifying cameras has suddenly become quite difficult..
    Jim Townsend, Oct 25, 2004
  5. Roland Karlsson

    Steve Young Guest

    How in the world do you ever find your way around in the Microsoft groups
    Jeremy? This group is nothing in comparison, kinda like an 8 lane highway
    at 3am Monday morning. Outside of the troll attacks, I don't believe this
    group has ever hit the top 10 in the big 8 listings. It usually bobbles
    between 17th and 60 something.
    Steve Young, Oct 25, 2004
  6. Roland Karlsson

    Roger Guest

    The test is simple. Doe they view though the same lens used for
    shooting the image. It matters not if they have a returnable mirror
    or prism, split the light or what ever. One lens for viewing and
    shooting. That is the only criteria. Some make a subcategory and
    call them SLR like, but the E10 and E20 are simply SLRs. To call them
    otherwise is to change the original basic definition of "Single Lens

    Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
    (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
    Roger, Oct 25, 2004
  7. There's no manual focus. There is autofocus lock, but that's not the
    same thing.

    It is a pretty capable camera for its size. I suspect that most people
    would class it as a point&shoot because of the lack of manual exposure

    But then take the A80. It has all of the above *plus* full manual
    exposure, aperture- and shutter-priority, and full manual focus. Does
    that make it a ZLR? But it's not shaped like a SLR at all.

    Then there's the G1-G6 family. These have all of the features of the
    A80, plus a hot shoe for external flash and RAW output. Does that take
    it across the line from sophisticated P&S to ZLR? It still doesn't look
    like an SLR.

    I think "ZLR" makes sense as a name for cameras that actually do have a
    reflex mirror, but not anything else - even if its's shaped like an SLR
    and has an electronic viewfinder. But that's just my opinion.

    Dave Martindale, Oct 25, 2004
  8. You've missed the point: As far as I can tell, the cameras that people want*
    to call ZLRs are all EVF cameras. So instead of calling them ZLRs, just call
    them EVF cameras. More accurate, less confusing. The P&S cameras are all
    cameras with either an optical viewfinder or no viewfinder. EVF vs. P&S is a
    reasonable distinction. But there are a _lot_ of web sites that are using
    ZLR for EVF, so I guess we're going to have to learn to live with it.

    *: Although ZLR is the obvious term for the E10/E20, the E10/E20 folks
    Agreed. Fixed zoom lens and reflex mirror. That's what a ZLR means.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
    David J. Littleboy, Oct 25, 2004
  9. Why didn't you weigh in on this during the RFD phase when it would have
    been more helpful?
    Woodchuck Bill, Oct 25, 2004
  10. Perhaps, but they belong in the ZLR group..not the SLR-systems group.
    Woodchuck Bill, Oct 25, 2004
  11. It's not quite that simple. Read the charter.

    Message-ID: <>
    Woodchuck Bill, Oct 25, 2004
  12. Nope. I voted. And it was not a vote about dividing r.p.d., it was a vote
    about creating four new groups that are more specific in their focus,
    something that happens all the time on Usenet. r.p.d. will continue to

    Whether the new groups will be successful, and whether they will reduce the
    popularity of r.p.d., remain to be seen.
    Steven M. Scharf, Oct 25, 2004
  13. Roland Karlsson

    Steve Young Guest

    *hey*, mayhaps a good place to exile the Dog Pack :)
    Steve Young, Oct 25, 2004
  14. Roland Karlsson

    Ken Tough Guest

    We (at least I) did discuss this. Not much notice was taken in general.
    Ken Tough, Oct 25, 2004
  15. Roland Karlsson

    Ken Tough Guest

    So ZLR means that it zooms and has vaguely the same physical shape
    as an SLR (since point-n-shoots also zoom). The 'full manual controls'
    criterion isn't very strong since my Oly 3040 would be a ZLR except
    for the fact that it doesn't have the same physical shape as an SLR.

    As I said during RFD, I think the distinction is not useful.
    I don't know why I missed the CFV, but perhaps because of the
    volume of posts and the speed that I have to scan the subjects.
    Ken Tough, Oct 25, 2004
  16. Roland Karlsson

    Matt Ion Guest

    Maybe they should have added a rec.photo.digital.bitch group as well,
    for threads like this...
    Matt Ion, Oct 25, 2004
  17. But what does "view" mean when there are two or more means of viewing?
    A large number of digital cameras have an LCD display which provides
    live video from the taking sensor, as well as an optical viewfinder.
    One uses the taking lens, one does not. If I tape over the optical
    finder, so only the LCD is available, do all these cameras become ZLRs?
    If so, why aren't they ZLR's without the tape? If they don't become
    ZLRs, why not?

    Dave Martindale, Oct 25, 2004
  18. Sure, that makes sense to me.
    Yes. No amount of newsgroup charters can redefine the meaning of a word
    that already has a well-defined meaning like ZLR.

    Dave Martindale, Oct 25, 2004
  19. Roland Karlsson

    andrew29 Guest

    What is the motivation to "keep up" with a group? Why would anyone
    want to do so? Surely most people just read the threads that interest

    andrew29, Oct 25, 2004
  20. Roland Karlsson

    andrew29 Guest

    You said

    by which I assumed you meant "when people talk about ZLRs, do you know
    what kind of camera they are talking about?"
    No, _we_ didn't: I voted against. There is no need for such a badly
    named group. It should not have been created. However, as far as I
    can tell the rules were correctly followed.

    andrew29, Oct 25, 2004
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