Part 2 of the series I'm writing...

Discussion in 'MCAD' started by CertGuard, Apr 10, 2007.

  1. ROTFLMAO. Yeah, but it needs modification and editing! Perhaps we need
    to add a column for <rants>? :)
    Michael D. Alligood, Apr 25, 2007
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  2. CertGuard

    CertGuard Guest

    Another forum possibly?
    CertGuard, Apr 25, 2007
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  3. Another forum possibly?
    God no! :) Anyway, it would have to be non-moderated. lol
    Michael D. Alligood, Apr 25, 2007
  4. CertGuard

    catwalker63 Guest

    Michael D. Alligood piffled away vaguely:
    I blame all of the above. MS has a definate share of the blame for the
    value of the certs. The marketing says premier cert but it doesn't have
    the necessary components to make it a real indication of someone's
    capabilities. It's really just a marketing tool for MS to sell
    software. As is, it makes them money. And of course they are making
    noises that show their commitment to the certs by closing down a few
    test centers and such. That keeps them making money. And that's the
    bottom line -- they will do what is profitable and no more. And the
    certs will remain as worthless as they are no matter what pretty new
    names they give them. I don't expect them to change but I won't get
    sucked into their marketing scheme again. I won't be taking any more
    exams unless I have to in order to keep a job.

    As for the expense of real certification programs, what do you expect?
    You get what you pay for. You want cheap, don't expect it to be worth
    anything when you're done.


    MCNGP #43
    "I have a gun. It's loaded. Shut up."
    catwalker63, Apr 25, 2007
  5. I blame all of the above. MS has a definate share of the blame for
    I was hoping you would chime in on this thread!
    The certification, IMHO, is pretty diverse for what it stands for. You
    are required to learn both the client and server side of things plus
    your choice of what you want to specialize in, i.e. electives. There is
    a lot of knowledge and information packed into the MCSE certification.
    It all depends if it applies to you.

    There is no doubt that they are in it for the money. But so is every
    certification program, including Cisco. Do you think Cisco just donates
    their certification revenue to the poor? :)
    Why do you think that is? What has Microsoft done to make this
    certification worthless?

    <disclaimer: no kool-aid was ingested while composing this post>
    Michael D. Alligood, Apr 26, 2007
  6. The certificate is still a good target for the learners. When you are
    learning a new product or new skill, you need to know at where you have
    learnt enough, or at where you could be safe to stop. Passing the
    certfication exam is a good milestone for your learning. It's also the
    driving force to push yourself to learn new products/technologies which you
    may be needed in the future but useless at your current position. However,
    I agree that you shouldn't expect the paper, with a preprinted signature of
    Bill Gates, to be worth anything when you're done.

    From another point of view, I do agree that MS uses the cert as a marketing
    tool. The cert and the exam itself won't make money for MS. It's the
    sales effect behind helps MS sell more software. Clients will believe those
    MS Partners at gold level or with specific completence could provide
    solutions to satisfy their needs. People who have earned MS certs are
    willing to buy MS products instead of products from other company. MS wants
    more people get certified. MS wants more of its partners get completence in
    different areas to strength its sales network. That's why MS didn't make
    the MCXX certs like CCIE. They want the certs to be cheap and easy to get.
    It doesn't matter whether the partners get their cert/completence by
    cheating or not.
    Anonymous Reader, Apr 26, 2007
  7. CertGuard

    catwalker63 Guest

    Michael D. Alligood piffled away vaguely:
    By components, I don't mean the objectives. I mean the process by which
    you are examined. It's just too easy to cheat. So there is no real
    proof. If someone can get the cert without knowing diddly, it has no
    value as proof of your capabilities.
    It's what they haven't done. They don't have to to make it harder to
    cheat to achieve their goal. They don't have to have people who really
    know how to support their products, they just need X number of people
    who have passed the exams to make their marketing claims. And, yes, I
    know they are in the business to make money and so are the other vendors
    who have certs. And I don't believe any of their bull either. Most
    people do, though. Sad.

    MCNGP #43
    "I have a gun. It's loaded. Shut up."
    catwalker63, Apr 26, 2007
  8. Ahh, but while I agree that there is value to Microsoft exclusively in the
    number of certified professionals, I feel strongly also that Microsoft
    recognizes that the learning process which they have published will be
    strongly devalued if the field reputation becomes such that it is no longer a
    sought after certification.

    Again, I think there will always be the temptation to cheat and some people
    (out of laziness, ineptitude, etc) will prefer to pass the tests with that
    means in order to gain the credential so long as there is an economic
    incentive to do so.

    Therefore, it is my personal view that the route to ensuring integrity while
    maintaining accessibility in the field is through cracking down on the supply
    chain for this information. One of the best assets that Microsoft has is the
    level of availible assets. Therefore, apply some money that might ordinarily
    go to a BIF project subsidization and setup an online reporting site for test
    center fraud. $XYZ amount of money if your claim can be verified.

    Use the legal teeth to go after test "prep" (dump) providers. This is
    difficult and takes a long time but if you start now by the time that
    Longhorn certification is stabilizing in the mainstream of professionals, you
    will begin to see the effect. Using an RIAA-like approach to go after the
    end-users who use these things will never work and will only serve to garner
    additional ill will in the industry so you really need to focus on ensuring
    that the economic consequences of violating the confidentiality of material
    are of a sufficient risk that starting a commercial braindump operation
    becomes unattractive.

    Use pattern matching and random sampling to identify those that were
    statistically almost certain to have used a particular braindump methodology.
    Send them warning letters. If you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt using
    a method that would stand up to public scrutiny, revoke a small subset of
    certification credentials garnered via braindumps or other agreement
    violations and publish it as far, wide, and as loud as you can. Put the
    community on notice that Microsoft really is serious about maintaining
    certification integrity.
    Wayne Anderson, Apr 26, 2007
  9. Ahh, but while I agree that there is value to Microsoft exclusively in
    I do not think I disagree with one viewpoint you listed Wayne! Also, I
    believe your post
    is a must read for anyone interested in certifications in the I.T.
    field. Good Job!
    Michael D. Alligood, Apr 26, 2007
  10. CertGuard

    Blackmetal Guest

    Well, everyone here has reason in many ways and I don't pretend to contend
    against anyone, but I want to say something:

    In very personal point of view, when I passed my first exam 70-210 and I
    knew I was an MCP, for me was a big achievement and I felt proud of it.

    I'm not a newbie, I started to work in computers since I was 18, when
    machines still had 5 1/4 floppy drives and the MS DOS version was 2.0, the
    time in history when you had to type a real command with the correct
    parameters to make it work.

    Now, I work as developer and webmaster and I still feel the same pasion in
    what I do. I don't care if Certifications means nothing for some people, but
    for me are milestones in my career because I live from doing this.

    My job and experience is where I get the money to pay my rent, living
    expenses, family and I can't come out bragging that Certifications means
    Blackmetal, Apr 26, 2007
  11. CertGuard

    catwalker63 Guest

    Blackmetal piffled away vaguely:
    I understand what you are saying. And in that context, the cert does
    have value. I learned a lot during the process and filled in some gaps
    in my knowledge. I just don't look for any further reward from the
    process and I could have saved almost a buncha money on exam fees. The
    exam preparation process is really enough for me, providing structure
    and focus. And I can skip the parts that I don't need, like RRAS.


    MCNGP #43
    "I have a gun. It's loaded. Shut up."
    catwalker63, Apr 26, 2007
  12. I understand what you are saying. And in that context, the cert does
    Excellent point Cat. That's why I suggest to people to ask themselves,
    "Why do I want this certification" or "Why certify". You and I both have
    seen the individual posts come in almost daily from noobs who want to
    know the best way to get certified. Or what certification is best for
    them. Why concentrate on the certification(s) when experience will get
    you so much farther in your career? Again, excellent post.
    Michael D. Alligood, Apr 26, 2007
  13. CertGuard

    catwalker63 Guest

    Michael D. Alligood piffled away vaguely:
    Dagnabit, you keep up this approval thing and they're gonna come and
    take my MCNGP away. ;)

    MCNGP #43
    "I have a gun. It's loaded. Shut up."
    catwalker63, Apr 26, 2007
  14. <helping maintain image> Your advice and opinions SUCK.
    Michael D. Alligood, Apr 26, 2007
  15. CertGuard

    kpg Guest

    That's one.
    kpg, Apr 26, 2007
  16. CertGuard

    Consultant Guest

    what are you trying to say?

    Consultant, Apr 27, 2007
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