Part 1 of a series I'm writing

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by CertGuard, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. CertGuard

    CertGuard Guest

    I'm writing a series of articles for Brad Reese and that
    most of you should be interested in. It's titled "The Cheating Industry that
    is devaluing IT Certification" check it out.

    It's currently being promoted on the main Cisco Subnet page of

    This is part 1 of the article:

    You think you know IT?!?!
    Check out the new 'No Braindump' CertGear:

    Some useful links:


    Practice Test Providers:
    Study Materials and Books:
    Vendor Links and Emails:
    CertGuard, Apr 3, 2007
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  2. CertGuard

    Kline Sphere Guest

    I'm writing a series of articles for Brad Reese and that
    the main reason why it is easy for people cheat is down to the format
    of the exams. this is especially so regarding the ms exams, where
    there are no 'written' or lab based exams (which many other vendors
    already do) and no proof of experience in the industry is required.
    until microsoft change the format for these exams, nothing will change
    and ms exams will continue to be considered worthless by all but the
    most stupid of ms partner body shops. if ms wanted to make their certs
    respected, they would have done so a long time ago.

    So, as far as ms goes, you should be pointing the finger at them as
    well, because they are the root of the problem and only they can make
    the changes required to make a real difference.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Apr 3, 2007
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  3. CertGuard

    CertGuard Guest

    We're working on that. One of the goals CertGuard has set to get straightened
    out is Exam Security. That includes all aspects of Exam Security, from the
    Testing Centers to the Vendors. I agree, even M$ needs to be critiqued on this

    Chalk, I value your opinion greatly. If we're going to get the word out that
    this needs to be done, I'm asking you to take a couple minutes to respond with
    what you said here, on Brad's blog. There are 100s of 1000s of readers there and
    many are in a position to do something about it.

    CertGuard, Apr 3, 2007
  4. CertGuard

    JaR Guest

    Foo. Microsoft knows what needs to be done. Are you seriously going to
    sit there and tell me that a multi-billion dollar company with some of
    the highest-priced talent involved in their so-called certification
    process can't figure out how to run the damb thing so as to cut down on
    cheats? That they haven't looked at other, more respected certs and seen
    how they do it? That they haven't heard all this before? Jeez. They have
    heard it all right here, ferghodsake, back when they used to at least
    have a presence in here.

    They haven't done anything because it is a marketing program, not a
    certification program. They make money off the process, and they can
    show that there are thousands of "Certified" monkeys all over the world
    to maintain their software for a dime an hour.

    And you really expect that they are going to clean up this money mill?


    If the certs meant anything, the cert holders would want more money.
    Microsoft licensing is already expensive, do you expect customers to
    have to cough up top dollar for tech to admin it too? As long as the
    market is flooded with MCPs, they are going to be inexpensive.

    Lets just recognize the program for what it is, kay?
    JaR, Apr 3, 2007
  5. CertGuard

    Egghead Guest

    I believe M$ will do exactly what they are doing now. A new cert path with
    the exact same test format. If they want to fix, they have a lot of chance,
    from NT->2K->2K3, or vs6.0-> .net 1.1 -> .net 2.0/3.0. Anyway, a cert
    without exp is useless.

    "CertGuard" <CertGuard - The Stronghold for Excellence in IT Certification
    and Exam Security> wrote in message
    Egghead, Apr 3, 2007
  6. CertGuard

    kpg Guest

    That was beautiful man. And right on.

    ....but let CertGaurd "Fight The Good Fight". It's like an insurgency,
    just keep that constant steady pressure on and one day cracks will
    appear, or not, that's not the point. What's right is the point. I
    myself don't have the desire to hit my head against a brick wall, but
    I glad some are that thick, I mean courageous.

    Right On!

    Fight The Power!
    kpg, Apr 3, 2007
  7. CertGuard

    Kline Sphere Guest

    I believe M$ will do exactly what they are doing now. A new cert path with
    too true.

    certification is supposed to 'certified' something. ms certs do not
    'certified' a damn thing for the reasons already stated.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Apr 3, 2007
  8. CertGuard

    Frisbee® Guest

    I had no idea you were into S&M.
    Frisbee®, Apr 3, 2007
  9. CertGuard

    Kline Sphere Guest

    Foo. Microsoft knows what needs to be done. Are you seriously going to
    i wish Laura was here to join in the debate.......

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Apr 3, 2007
  10. CertGuard

    Kline Sphere Guest

    i wish Laura was here to join in the debate.......
    just kidding!

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Apr 3, 2007
  11. CertGuard

    CertGuard Guest

    This article wasn't directly targeted at M$ as much as it was the cheaters that
    have taken advantage of every certification. Ok, there are more cheaters that
    are M$ certified, and yes, it's because of reasons that Kline stated (amongst
    many other reasons), but sitting here complaining to people that have heard it
    all before isn't going to take care of the problem. I know how you feel, I feel
    the same way. Why do you think I've opted to expand? It's time we let other's
    hear our voices. Unless you just like reading your own text. I can tell you
    right now that most of the 'outsiders' read a few posts in here, form an opinion
    of the group as a whole, then never come back.
    Maybe so, but people are buying into it. If I'm not mistaken, your signature
    says you have too. So, is being a "Certified" monkey all it's cracked up to be?
    Chill...I'm just tryin to get your goat. So what says that we, as professionals
    in the industry, cannot turn that around? If you're so worried about the value
    of your certifications, then why haven't you done anything about it? Or is it
    just something to b!tch about, it's just not worth your time to do anything
    I've come to NOT expect anything from anyone anymore. It's a worthless waste of
    my time to expect someone else to do something that I can do myself. In this
    case, maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I yell, 'uncle' then you'll know I've given
    If they want Top Techs, yes, why not? We all know that MCP, in and of itself, is
    virtually meaningless. Only when combined with other MCP exams do the certs
    begin to have meaning. Unfortunately, as you've stated, an overabundance of even
    those certs (MCSE, CCNP, etc.) are killing the value. You can thank the gunmen
    for those, and they are being taken care of (the gunmen and the cheaters).
    Instead, why don't we take the opportunity to help shape the program into what
    it should be? What does complaining about it do? I've learnt a lot in the time
    that I've been here, but one thing I've known all along is that b!tching about
    it doesn't work. It doesn't get your voice heard any faster than the people in
    the next newsgroup, in fact, the people that should be listening closed the
    doors long ago.
    CertGuard, Apr 3, 2007
  12. CertGuard

    CertGuard Guest

    So that's all this is to you guys, huh? I guess I've kinda seen this all along,
    but refused to acknowledge it. Wow, this really opens things up.

    So you do just like reading your own text?! And you are saying that you DON'T
    care about the certs, you just want to b!tch about them losing value. Amazing,
    and to think I bought into *your* program.

    Thanks for all the support, really!
    CertGuard, Apr 3, 2007
  13. CertGuard

    JaR Guest

    Only if there was a small chance that it would scale.
    JaR, Apr 3, 2007
  14. CertGuard

    Frisbee® Guest

    "CertGuard" <CertGuard - The Stronghold for Excellence in IT Certification
    and Exam Security> wrote in message
    "you guys" is painting a rather broad brush.

    Many of us have other obligations. Many of us see the Don Qixote-ness of it
    all. It's getting pretty bad when even members of the MCNGP take the MCNGP
    too seriously. Most of us are glad that you have this passion and time. I
    intend to support you as much as I am able, but there are limits. I have
    other, meaner bosses to answer to. In other words, I get enough grief for
    belonging to a tongue-in-cheek group already. I really don't need even more
    grief. I'll never quit smoking at this rate.

    Lighten up already. Keep fighting the fight, but you don't have to take
    yourself so seriously in doing it, do you?

    Okay, maybe I would if I had the time and resources...
    Frisbee®, Apr 3, 2007
  15. CertGuard

    Kline Sphere Guest

    ...but let CertGaurd "Fight The Good Fight". It's like an insurgency,
    i think you need to lighten up a little!

    i guess some of us (or maybe it's just me?) have become long in the
    tooth pointing out the flaws (or should that be floors, JaR!) with
    'microsoft' certs. no one's having a pop at Certgard, and i for one
    wish you every success, but these facts have been brought to
    microsoft's attention before, and well, nothing's happened.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Apr 3, 2007
  16. CertGuard

    Kline Sphere Guest

    I get enough grief for
    is that just from the b0sses or from Mrs Frisbee as well? :)

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Apr 3, 2007
  17. CertGuard

    Kline Sphere Guest

    In other words, I get enough grief for
    sorry Fris, by tongue-in-cheek group i thought you meant this
    newsgroup, now I understand what you really meant, that you get grief
    for belonging to that other tongue-in-cheek group, the Gator's fan
    club, sorry man my bad.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Apr 3, 2007
  18. CertGuard

    JaR Guest

    BD, I think it's great that you and Certguard have taken up the
    challenge to try to make a difference with MS Certs. Go for it, dude. We
    need a bulldog to spit in the face of the lusers out there devaluing our
    certs. But you know, man, I look at it this way: if I can discourage one
    fscking luser from going after a cert in the first place, I have done
    the industry a service. We do not need *more* certified lusers. We need
    talented techies that understand the industry and the software. The
    'outsiders' you refer to, I could give a fsck less about.

    Yup, I bought into it. Hook, line & sinker. Just get a Microsoft cert or
    three and HR droids will start tossing money at you. Then I start
    applying for jobs and find out that half the clowns working behind the
    service counter at CompUSA are MCSEs! Is it all it's cracked up to be?
    You are joking, right? It was an incredible waste of time and money. I
    will not be taking anymore MS certs on my own. If an employer wants me
    to have more letters after my name he can pay for it.

    Whatwould you like us to do? Write to Microsoft? Done that. Talk with
    their people? We did that too. I am not worried about the value of my
    so-called certs. Don't you get it? I have written them off.

    The only way that we, the professionals, will be able to turn it around
    will be to discourage people from participating in such a fundamentally
    flawed process. Stop people from even thinking about getting certified.

    Yup, we can take on the cheats, gunmen, whatever. But until MS cleans up
    it's testing procedures, y'all are tilting at windmills. Sorry.
    Microsoft could shut down the cheating overnight, if they had any desire
    to. Simply by the steps outlined in this thread. But heck, there's other
    things they could be doing as well.

    They don't want to.

    It's that simple.
    No, don't give up. Keep tilting at that damb windmill. Fer Ghodsakes,
    you might be right, and I might be wrong. If I'm wrong about Microsoft,
    and they are merely too venal to clean up the cert process, you will
    have done the industry a huge service by convincing them to behave

    Overabundance is not 'killing' the value. It has 'killed' the value.
    Period. Remember what MCSE stands for? How many MCSEs do you think there
    are out there that are qualified Systems Engineers? How many MCSAs do
    you think there are that could walk into any company and fill a
    Sysadmin's chair?
    Nope, b!tching about it does no good, other than to let off some steam.
    We got sucked in once by Microsofties claiming to want our opinions on
    'shaping the program'. Maybe this time will be different, but I doubt
    it. They know exactly what they are doing, bro. What opportunity are you
    referring to? You're right, they closed the doors long ago.

    That's it. Venting over. We now return y'all to your regularly scheduled
    very important stuff. Please disregard all above. I'm putting the
    soapbox away for another year or so.
    JaR, Apr 3, 2007
  19. CertGuard

    TheITGirl Guest

    I'm not Laura I'm afraid (nor am I into S&M!); will an IT Girl do?

    Seriously, if MS can't (or won't) do anything about the problem, then we
    need to scream and shout about it to make sure that employers and
    recruitment consultants (many of whom are terminally stupid) are aware of it
    and actually educate them into checking out the credentials of a candidate
    who purports to be certified.

    One of our offices in the UK recently fired one of its senior IT managers -
    this guy once asked a colleague of mine how to connect to a shared folder on
    one of the servers and was told by my surprised colleague to go Start > Run
    and type the UNC path to the folder. He then proceeded to type "U-N-C" into
    the Run dialog box until my colleague explained to him what the UNC was.

    The problem then gets compounded, as people like this blag their way into
    senior positions, and then deliberately recruit even more useless underlings
    to ensure their incompetence doesn't get discovered. And so it goes on.

    I've lost count of the number of useless IT professionals I've come into
    contact with over the years. This was a factor, albeit a minor one, in my
    decision to change career and move into IT.

    Perhaps if more employers imposed technical tests on candidates and checked
    out their certifications instead of believing whatever BS they come out with
    at interview, the cheaters and incompetents would not be able to take jobs
    off genuinely skilled people, whose certifications were come by honestly.

    IT Girl MCDST
    TheITGirl, Apr 3, 2007
  20. CertGuard

    Frisbee® Guest

    Mostly the latter.
    Frisbee®, Apr 3, 2007
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