NZ Linux users engage in Govt-MS bashing

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Alex Axolotl, Nov 25, 2004.

  1. Yes, obviously. I have one computer that is mostly new (most parts are
    a year old or less), two others that are made up of parts that are up to
    four years old, and a laptop that's three years old.
    I spend no time on hardware problems. I've not had a hardware failure
    for about three years, and that was when I blew up two HDDs by
    overloading a PSU. Not a hardware age problem.
    Old hardware is no less reliable. The main server on my home network is
    a P3 650, with two IDE drives that're no less than three years old.
    It's never missed a beat, other than having to replace the CPU fan
    because it was getting a little noisy. It runs 24/7, and has done for
    most of the last three years - it was turned off for a couple of weeks
    when I moved to Wellington, but was back on again as soon as I had a
    place to put it.
    When I moved, I sold a former flatmate an HDD that was eight (yes, 8)
    years old. Still working perfectly. No bad sectors that I was aware
    of. Yes, old hardware is definitely unreliable.
    Three years is nothing for a computer. If you don't drop them, they'll
    run for a decade. My mother still uses a 486 desktop that we got in
    '94. Nothing wrong with it. A bit difficult to get new software for,
    but it runs the stuff she has just fine. If I were to put Linux or
    FreeBSD on it, it'd probably even run faster.

    --
    Matthew Poole Auckland, New Zealand
    "Veni, vidi, velcro...
    I came, I saw, I stuck around"

    My real e-mail is mattATp00leDOTnet
     
    Matthew Poole, Nov 26, 2004
    #41
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  2. People like Patrick don't see it that way, though.
    I'm sure Paddy doesn't have any issue with the copyright term extensions
    that will doubtless be foisted upon us as part of an FTA (*choke*) with
    the US - death plus 70 years is quite reasonable. It's just us commies
    who have a problem with it.

    --
    Matthew Poole Auckland, New Zealand
    "Veni, vidi, velcro...
    I came, I saw, I stuck around"

    My real e-mail is mattATp00leDOTnet
     
    Matthew Poole, Nov 26, 2004
    #42
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  3. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    Patrick Dunford wrote:

    8><---
    Academic.....what counts is what is charged for here and now. So the
    questions is, if RH etc can make a profit by not charging CALS why is MS
    charging? and in that case why are we paying extra for nothing?

    OSS is not a CAL model, it is a no cost for the software model. OSS is
    not there for business it is there because it wants to be. People,
    businesses and vendors have chosen to use it at their expense, they are
    free within the confines of the GPL to do so.

    Linux distro producers have chosen to package OSS software by any means
    to support their business, they could if they so chose to do a per seat
    licence they can, they have not. Caldera ne SCO tried to and that just
    flopped, Sun is trying to though then the server software seems to be
    zero cost, so an alternative....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 27, 2004
    #43
  4. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    Having had considerable contact with NZ Govn agencies over the last 7
    years the answer to that is, they pick anything that they perceive is
    the minimum threat to their job security and future advancement as a
    fisrt off.

    OSS is seen as a greater risk, if it goes belly up and believe me many
    Govn projects do, they believe there is less risk to them and the aim is
    to pass it on to the vendor, if they can...

    So, for me I seriously consider that many managers in Govn are not first
    rate, indeed we are lucky if they are as good as second rate IMHO.

    So questioning what is going on is perfectly valid, if at the end of the
    day a software purchase can be justified because its choice is logical
    and fair I have no problem if is is commercial or otherwise. Purchasing
    any product because of the previous reasons I have mentioned is not
    logical or fair and does NZ a dis-service IMHO.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 27, 2004
    #44
  5. If promoting documents formats which are operating system
    interoperable and asking questions about the cost-benefit for a os and
    applications choices constitutes "a carefully disguised campaign
    against Microsoft", then MS has a problem.

    Regards,



    Lev
     
    Lev Lafayette, Nov 27, 2004
    #45
  6. Alex Axolotl

    David Pears Guest

    I like the way you hedge your arguments with words like "perceive" and
    "beleive". It almost says that none of the reasons you advance make
    any sense, but that you think the managers involved would think they
    do and therefore they are true.

    I can only say that we have projects that suceed and projects that
    fail. We don't let failing managers off the hook if they've based
    their project on commercial software. And we don't come down hard on
    failing managers just because they've based their project on open
    source software. Such an idea would be ludicrous, both here and in NZ.
    And I'd be amazed if anyone we had dealings with was stupid enough to
    think that perceived-but-not-real risk of open source software was a
    factor in our software selection.
    In my experience with Australian government IT management, they are
    good and bad in about the same proportion as management not in
    government. Some of the incentives are different tho... there aren't
    the commercial pressures to suceed, but on the other hand many of the
    people involved are genuinely interested in the services they're
    trying to implement for personal and social reasons. Neither group
    wants their work to amount to nothing.
    So what do you think should be done to fix this problem that you see?
    Presumably any solution implemented by the managers you dislike would
    not be sufficient.

    David
     
    David Pears, Nov 27, 2004
    #46
  7. Their biggest problem is often that they have adherents such as Patrick,
    who cannot bring himself to admit that OSS is frequently the better
    choice.
    He totally ignored my points on MS software frequently not being the
    most efficient use of my tax dollars, and instead rambled on about how
    old hardware breaks. The Dunford sidestep is notorious.

    --
    Matthew Poole Auckland, New Zealand
    "Veni, vidi, velcro...
    I came, I saw, I stuck around"

    My real e-mail is mattATp00leDOTnet
     
    Matthew Poole, Nov 27, 2004
    #47
  8. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    David Pears wrote:

    8><----
    I do not dislike specific managers, so therefore the point is moot. What
    I do want to see is transparent processes and accountability. But also,
    said managers need to be given sufficient resources to succeed,
    otherwise they are just scape goats and that is pointless.

    I had a chat a few years back with an ex-pat NZer who like me had spent
    10 years+ in London. We caught up after he had returned to NZ, about
    18months ~ 2 years back. His comment was, the often held belief by
    overseas companies was that NZ produced first class managers, competant
    and keen workers was true, they had all left NZ, to earn a decent
    salary, what was left was very second rate.

    I would concur.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 27, 2004
    #48
  9. Alex Axolotl

    Peter Guest

    Yes, so small businesses and consultancies doing business with the
    Government are forced tb buy MS products at full retail shrink-wrap
    price.

    Microsoft is now running scared that their death-grip is about to be
    broken by good old fashioned competition and are now going crying to
    the White House for help, not only in the USA but around the world.
     
    Peter, Nov 27, 2004
    #49
  10. Alex Axolotl

    David Pears Guest

    Saying you want "transparent processes and accountability" is a
    statement of an objective. The people involved would argue that the
    processes were already transparent, since tenders should always be
    conducted in a fair manner and you can request documents on IT
    projects via whatever the FoI Act is called.

    So how about describing some specific processes or improvements to
    processes that you think would make things better? Not general aims,
    but actual steps that the government could implement.

    David
     
    David Pears, Nov 27, 2004
    #50
  11. Microsoft works for most users. They have been around a lot longer than
    most of the open source projects.

    I'm a fan of companies that have a track record. Like IBM.
    No they don't, they are just trolling. Act is sitting extremely low in
    the polls.
    MS isn't the only software vendor but they are one of the world's leading
    software vendors. People choose them because of this.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #51
  12. On some of the open source projects, they may have a few paid developers
    and more who aren't paid.
    IBM also develops closed source commercial software.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #52
  13. Six years or more is what I call ancient.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #53
  14. Act and the Greens are fringe minor parties
    Two of them are poor South American countries.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #54
  15. Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:55:56 +0930, David Pears
    The main difference is the government in NZ is aligned to the flaky
    Greens who are pro linux ,anti MS
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #55
  16. Probably shows how insignificant OSS is compared to MS.

    Both parts of that statement are nonsense. MS has released three projects
    on Sf.net
    If you have a custom application developed for you on say an SQL server
    that you have to get a license for, the actual development costs are
    miles higher than the costs of the license etc.
    And then they are small companies that never expand their business
    because no one wants to invest in them.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #56
  17. NZ isn't that likely to get an FTA any time soon unless Helen has a brain
    fart or loses the election.

    Personally I have no issue with copyright.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #57
  18. You're referring to machines that are only three years old. Schools
    average computers are quite a bit older.
    Three years IS NOT OLD.
    One hard drive proves your case? Bull.
    We have about 30 machines 6 years or older, all different brands, all
    unreliable. Motherboard failures, power supply failures, fan failures. No
    surprises.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #58
  19. No, you totally failed to recognise that it was you who ranted about
    having to buy new hardware to run MS software.

    Because you totally failed to recognise that old hardware is less
    reliable, and therefore actually ends up costing more anyway.

    OSS is about on a par with MS, however OSS projects come and go, MS has
    been in business 30 years.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 27, 2004
    #59
  20. Well that's just plain silly then. There are numerous and clear
    instances where OSS is technically better than the equivalent
    Microsoft produced software and for all software it's financially
    better (OK, I do take the "total cost of ownership" argument into
    account. People who know how to do Linux/BSD etc sysadmin work are
    rarer and you do need to know what you're doing...)

    But let's think of some comparisons....

    TCP/IP versus NetBEUI for example ;-) (OK, that's probably a nasty
    example)

    On a more serious note, PostgreSQL versus MS-SQL. Sure the latter is
    probably easier to use - but which one is fully ACID compliant?

    How about Firefox versus Internet Explorer? Thunderbird versus
    LookOut? Java versus Visual Basic? Apache versus IIS?


    Regards,



    Lev (posted via Mandrake 10 - nice!)
     
    Lev Lafayette, Nov 27, 2004
    #60
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