NZ Linux users engage in Govt-MS bashing

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Alex Axolotl, Nov 25, 2004.

  1. *SNIP*

    Why should it be disguised? The Government has a duty to spend my tax
    dollars as efficiently as possible. Microsoft software is NOT the most
    efficient use of that dollar in a huge number of situations.
    It's especially not an efficient use of that dollar in education, where
    spending money on new hardware to run new software is a scandalous
    waste.

    --
    Matthew Poole Auckland, New Zealand
    "Veni, vidi, velcro...
    I came, I saw, I stuck around"

    My real e-mail is mattATp00leDOTnet
     
    Matthew Poole, Nov 26, 2004
    #21
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  2. Alex Axolotl

    Bret Guest

    Perhaps these people want to promote OSS Patrick.
    Its a promotion for OSS.
     
    Bret, Nov 26, 2004
    #22
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  3. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    thing wrote:

    8><---
    I find it very interesting ACT is taking such an interest, do you not
    think that if buying Commercial benefited its members, businesses and
    voter support the most, it would be singing MS's tune?

    Act and its supporters must see considerable net potential in OSS over
    Commercial to decide that it is worth investigating and pushing.

    We use Linux heavily at work, the only reason MS is still prelevent with
    us is as an educational establishment we pay no CALS, so we are saving
    on 28,000+ CALS at what cost? 20~50NZ each?

    Do the Math, Linux does not have CALS, so MS is able to compete because
    its licencing as all but throw away in our environment, otherwise it
    would be $500,000+ to expensive....

    We use SQL, its like $400NZ per box instead of $16,000 or something daft
    per box....its used because it is so cheap, if it was $16,000 we would
    be on mysql.

    Education enjoys a substantial discount, other Govn depts do not, so
    where is the value for money?

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 26, 2004
    #23
  4. I doubt that, since a bulk buyer like the Government would already be
    getting good discounts.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 26, 2004
    #24
  5. No, you are
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 26, 2004
    #25
  6. We don't live in such a society.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 26, 2004
    #26
  7. Lets see MS indemnifies its users against being sued, MS gets sued all
    the time for patent infringement...
    How many of the Mysql and other major open source developers are
    developing proprietary or closed source software in their day jobs I
    wonder?

    The so-called "free software" industry is piggybacked on the commercial
    software industry. For example SourceForge.net is run by a corporation
    which markets a non-free commercial product in the marketplace.
    The cost of the software for commercial users generally is only a small
    part of the total cost of a project.

    An average commercial user will not only have the purchase cost, they
    will have the installation and support costs, which as we have seen, soon
    mount up. The development of commercial applications on top of say a free
    SQL server as such will make the server software costs relatively
    insignificant.

    The commercial product is developed and supported by full time
    professional staff and that is the main reason why it costs more.
    All the major "free" software vendors are overseas.
    Act is a bunch of political opportunists currently polling too low to be
    re-elected to Parliament.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 26, 2004
    #27
  8. Anyone would know that there is no 1st level TLD called "invalid"

    It is recognised by international Internet convention that "invalid" can
    be used in a Usenet email name to show that it is as such.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 26, 2004
    #28
  9. Oh rubbish, has it not occurred to you that ancient hardware breaks down
    a lot more. The fact is, we spend a lot more time fixing up our old
    machines, not because they are running MS software, but because they are
    old and worn out.

    It is efficient to buy new hardware, that is covered by a manufacturer's
    warranty for three years and is reliable.

    Schools can often buy three year old machines capable of still running
    current software for around $100 each. They break down more often. New
    hardware costs more but less time is spent on maintenance.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 26, 2004
    #29
  10. No, Act sees a political opportunity to embarrass the government, pure
    and simple.

    All these questions are potential ones, it's not very clear which ones
    are likely to be asked, since Rodders is going to be limited in them.

    At the end of the day Act will get a ride on whatever bandwagon they
    think will get them headlines, look at all that rubbish Muriel spouts
    over welfare.
    Linux distro producers have chosen not to charge CALs would be more
    accurate.
    Bulk buying discounts?

    The initial purchase cost of the software is only a small part of the
    equation.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Nov 26, 2004
    #30
  11. Alex Axolotl

    Kim Shepherd Guest

    So? Who made them untouchable?

    -k.
     
    Kim Shepherd, Nov 26, 2004
    #31
  12. Alex Axolotl

    Chris Hope Guest

    Why are you so scared of open source technology Patrick? Why are you such a
    Microsoft proponent? So what if Act thinks the Government could drop
    Microsoft products and save a few million dollars per year? Are you against
    the Government saving *our* money? If MS really does have a lower TCO then
    good, stay with MS software but it doesn't hurt to investigate
    alternatives. MS is not the only software vendor out there so why should
    everyone feel they need to be locked into them?
     
    Chris Hope, Nov 26, 2004
    #32
  13. Alex Axolotl

    Chris Hope Guest

    I can't find any evidence to support this, but do you really think the
    primary MySQL developers *dont't* get paid to develop MySQL? They have a
    dual licensing system and make money from licensing their software as well
    as selling support. http://www.mysql.com/support/ Do you think *those*
    people doing the support aren't getting paid? Do you think the money raised
    from those support contracts isn't being used to pay developers?
    So what if it is? The commercial software industry obviously sees some
    advantage in using open source software (ie making $$) otherwise they
    wouldn't use it. IBM has pumped millions of dollars into OSS - do you
    really think they're doing it for the good of the community? While the
    community may benefit, there can be no doubt they are doing it because it
    helps their bottom line.
     
    Chris Hope, Nov 26, 2004
    #33
  14. Alex Axolotl

    Chris Hope Guest

    I would hardly call three year old hardware ancient.
     
    Chris Hope, Nov 26, 2004
    #34
  15. Alex Axolotl

    Chris Hope Guest

    And if they did you would be free to choose a distro that didn't. They are
    plenty of them out there.
     
    Chris Hope, Nov 26, 2004
    #35
  16. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    So why? why is it that ACT considers the Government vunerable? if OSS
    was so bad, the Govn's position would be easy to defend.

    Mainstream Politicians are asking questions just like they are in OZ,
    Peru and Brazil to name but three.

    If a substantial expenditure in OSS is justified by these three
    countries, why is NZ so far behind?

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 26, 2004
    #36
  17. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    and the OSS community has been sued by whom?

    Forget SCO, its after a contract violation with IBM, OSS issues dropped
    out 9 months back.

    So MS has been in court and/or settled, OSS has not had to, not ONCE. MS
    has settled for Billions US, not one cent has OSS had to settle.
    Who cares? at the end of the day there are alternatives that even have
    paid support at very reasonable cost. Fully blown Commercial vendors
    charge heaps up front and heaps for support, the costs far outstrip what
    it really costs to support.

    Rubbish, MS spends its time attacking the GPL because it cannot use GPL
    software, to embrace and extendt, it freely uses BSD software often
    without acknoledging so.
    For small and medium size businesses I would argue the opposite, they
    pay a disproportunate cost for software as they are not big enough to
    get Enterprise discounts...

    In my last company we had a closed source proprietry CRM system, we had
    modified it to such an extent to meet our needs taht the vendor refused
    to support it, so we had paid up front a huge amount of money for zilch....
    The Commercial company also has lots of suits to pay and big dividends
    to shareholders, lots of OSS companies do not have such high overheads.

    It is also a well known retail game in that a price for a product is
    based on what a client/consumer wil pay and not what it actually cost.
    More often than not the price tag bears no relation to what it really
    cost. Hence of course we have attempts at vendor lock in, then the
    vendor can rape a company's budget sheet for any amount it chooses.
    Where NZ companies make thier biggest profit is services, who cares
    where the software is from? An NZ company makes little if anything on a
    MS sale.

    lol, we can download and do what we want, who cares where they are? What
    do you think Red Flag is? hot air?

    What is stopping us having black fern Linux? absolutely nothing.
    Opportunists who smell a possible victory, if there was no carion there
    would be no vultures....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 26, 2004
    #37
  18. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    yeah yeah, and did you note the huge discounts offered to Munich? Newham?

    Until those CIO's played hard ball MS was trying to charge them a
    substantial wack, after OSS was on the scene and viable they got very
    large discounts.

    If MS considered OSS a non-event why offer a big % cut? because it is
    not, it is a viable and robust alternative.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 26, 2004
    #38
  19. Alex Axolotl

    thing Guest

    If MS had its way we would be. US Corps have already corrupted the US
    Govn to the extent it is a joke, I dont want to see that here in NZ.
    Hence our defence.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Nov 26, 2004
    #39
  20. Alex Axolotl

    David Pears Guest

    And what is the government's position? I suspect it already runs a
    variety of software from a variety of sources. And selected the best
    software for any particular purpose based on our assessment of
    function and cost, rather than on direction from politicians. I'm in
    the IT strategy group for an Australian state government and this is
    one of the things I do for a living. I'd be surprised if the NZ
    government was any different.

    David
     
    David Pears, Nov 26, 2004
    #40
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