NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by void, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Name a single DSLR or compact camera (other than Sony cameras that use
    older camcorder packs) that has after-market microprocessor equipped
    li ion batteries available.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
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  2. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Finally, we are starting to agree about this. The proprietary battery
    scam is a good reason to avoid products that use it, at least in the
    instances where the scam is successful in thwarting the aftermarket
    for more than a few months. Frankly I'm baffled. I thought you were
    the one defending the scam. Now it looks like we're partially on the
    same side.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
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  3. void

    Ron Hunter Guest

    True, and a very bad feature of the Lithium ion battery format. That is
    probably the single most significant disadvantage of the chemistry.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 4, 2005
  4. void

    Ron Hunter Guest

    I take my camera (AA batteries), my cell phone, and my GPS receiver.
    All but the cell phone take AA batteries. The shaver had its own
    internal (NICad) batteries...and requires only a cord to plug it in,
    about once every 3 weeks.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 4, 2005
  5. void

    Paul Allen Guest

    Yep. Note that he doesn't say "high noise levels at ISO 80". Nobody
    questions that the camera has higher than average noise levels. But,
    the reviewers are not generally saying it's unusable at ISO 80. You
    can exaggerate the problem if that's what you have to do. Doesn't
    bother me.

    Note that I have nothing invested in this camera, yet. I am in love
    with its ergonomics, not its sensor noise. :)

    Paul Allen
     
    Paul Allen, Dec 4, 2005
  6. void

    SMS Guest

    This is true. I calculated the number of AA cells base on the battery in
    my Compaq Presario notebook, which has a 65WH battery. It would take 22
    AA cells, 2500mAH each, to equal that battery. It would also take
    additional circuitry in the notebook to be able to discharge the
    batteries in parallel, but charge them in series, because in reality
    you'd need two parallel packs of 12 AA cells each, to get to 14.4V.
     
    SMS, Dec 4, 2005
  7. void

    SMS Guest

    I don't know why it would be so hard to build one of these cameras with
    a larger sensor, other than the fact that it would require a longer zoom
    lens if it had a smaller crop factor (but you'd get a wider angle lens
    out of the bargain).

    When the so-called zlrs were $700 and decent D-SLRs were $1500, then the
    zlr had its attraction. Now you can get an entry-level D-SLR that is far
    superior to the zlr in terms of image quality, and that lacks the
    extremely annoying shutter lag, for not a lot more money than a zlr.

    You'll need two lenses to cover the same range, unless you go for a
    super-zoom, but you'll have better quality lenses when the range is
    smaller. I.e., A Konica-Minolta Dynax 5D with an 18-70 lens is $600, and
    a 75-300 lens is an additional $150. So for $750, you get a far, far
    superior outfit, including image stabilization, than the $540 Lumix
    FZ-30, or the $525 Finepix S9000. As the one reviewer said, the SLR is
    more expensive, but not excessively more.

    The reviews of the zlrs are not great, ever since D-SLR prices have
    plunged. I.e. "Photo quality is pretty good on the FinePix, though I
    find images taken with similarly priced D-SLRs to be a lot better, and
    "While better than fixed lens cameras, images are noisier than similarly
    priced D-SLRs," or "If you're doing 8 x 10s or larger, decide if you
    want to deal with the noise in your prints, post-process them with noise
    reduction software, or move up to a digital SLR, which runs circles
    around the FZ30 at high ISO settings."

    IMVAIO, the falling prices of D-SLRs, spell trouble for the zlr market,
    where there are too many compromises. The compromises may have been
    acceptable when there was a $1000 difference in the total cost, but are
    much less acceptable when the cost difference is $200-300.
     
    SMS, Dec 4, 2005
  8. void

    Paul Allen Guest

    You just said why it's hard. If you make the sensor larger, the lens
    either gets effectively shorter or it gets really big and expensive.
    Panasonic made the sensor a little larger on the FZ30 and had to
    compromise by dropping the speed on the long end of the telephoto.
    What you get is a compromise. You pay a couple hundred more to lug
    around more gear and fiddle with interchangeable lenses that are a lot
    slower than what you could have had. You give up the ability to frame
    using the LCD, pre-exposure histograms, the convenience of being able
    to just haul out the camera and shoot. (I take a lot of shots with
    the camera on the bottom post of the tripod where I can't get my eye
    anywhere near the viewfinder.) I don't want to go back to multple
    lenses, and I'm not particularly bothered by the little bit of noise
    in non-DSLR's.

    Paul Allen
     
    Paul Allen, Dec 4, 2005
  9. SMS wrote:
    []
    But that's ignoring some of the story. I might agree with you about some
    of the higher-end ZLRs, particularly those offering a very long zoom lens
    without image stabilisation. However, I haven't yet found a DSLR which
    comes within factor of two or three on weight or convenience of the
    Panasonic FZ5 - 36 - 432mm f/3.7 image-stabilised zoom, 5MP. 350 grams.
    Fine for 8 x 10 prints.

    Oh, and it can be had for a little over $300 US.

    Some ZLRs provide options simply not available in a DSLR at any price.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 4, 2005
  10. void

    SMS Guest

    What bothers many people the most about non-D-SLRs is the shutter lag.
    Not a problem when you're photographing landscapes, but a big problem
    when you're photographing action shots, or young children that can't
    stand still.

    As to noise levels, IMVAIO, the reason people put up with it is because
    they lack a frame of reference as to just how good a digital photograph
    can be.
     
    SMS, Dec 4, 2005
  11. void

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    Have you tried these? Are they worth the investment (including charger)?
     
    Bill Tuthill, Dec 4, 2005
  12. void

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    The Tamron 28-300/3.5-6.3 is 42-450 crop-equivalent and costs $499.
    Alternatively the Tamron 18-200/3.5-6.3 is 27-350 equivalent for $399.
    Neither lens is terribly large or heavy, and f/3.7 isn't needed at the
    long end because the 5D has very little noise at ISO 800.
    You can look it up if you're curious, but a 5D with 18-70 weighs 830 grams
    versus 519 grams for the Panasonic FZ20.
     
    Bill Tuthill, Dec 4, 2005
  13. void

    SMS Guest

    No I haven't tried them, and I doubt if I ever will. I guess whether
    it's worth it or not depends on how fast you go through CR2s, but it's
    an expensive solution.
     
    SMS, Dec 4, 2005
  14. void

    SMS Guest

    This is something that many people forget, on a low-noise camera, you
    can simply go to a higher ISO setting, lessening the need for a faster
    lens at the telephoto end.

    If you're willing to put up with lens changes, the two lens solution is
    better and cheaper.
     
    SMS, Dec 4, 2005
  15. void

    Paul Allen Guest

    In other words, non-dSLR users are too ignorant to know the difference?
    You can have the discussion all to yourself. I'm not interested in
    pursueing you down there.

    Paul Allen
     
    Paul Allen, Dec 4, 2005
  16. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    They have significantly higher voltage (up to 4.2 volts when charged
    instead of 3 volts) than primary cr2's. I'd be afraid to put them
    into a camera unless the manufacturer said it was ok.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 4, 2005
  17. void

    okaro Guest

    First you point out how Li-ion is not expensive and then you give
    examples
    of universal chargers costing about $70 on a special offer.

    Of course I do not see the problem with separate chargers. It saves
    time as
    one does not have to charge one battery at a time. Also especially with
    a
    phone it is important to have it available while it is charged.

    Also comparing cheap Li-ion batteries with quality NiMH ones is
    somewhat strange. I would not buy a cheap Li-ion battery for an
    expensive
    camera as it could explode and ruin the camera.

    Having said that I still think that Li-ion batteries are in many cases
    a
    smarter choice especially in small devices. The charger for my Canon
    Ixus
    is little larger than a matchbox and hooks to any standard lead. Of
    course
    standard NiMH batteries have their points especially if one has them
    in several devices. Instead of a dogmatic approach one should more look

    at the particular implementation and how it suits one's needs. When was

    choosing my camera I first was very much for AA side batteries
    because of lower cost but then I got hooked to the small size that the

    Li-ion allowed.

    Osmo
     
    okaro, Dec 5, 2005
  18. void

    SMS Guest

    The Lenmar charger is $50. Less if you use some discount codes. Not
    terribly cheap, not terribly expensive.

    Exploding batteries nearly always occur when the battery is being
    charged. This is a big problem in phones and notebook computers, where
    the charging circuitry is internal.

    It isn't a problem, in terms of damaging the device, in devices where
    the cameras where the battery is charged externally. But it does make
    sense to avoid batteries from unknown sources, such as those sold on
    eBay. Buy from a reputable retailer where you have some recourse if
    problems occur.
     
    SMS, Dec 5, 2005
  19. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    So much for $10 BP-511's.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 5, 2005
  20. void

    SMS Guest

    Yes, the one's from a reputable dealer are $12, see
    "http://sterlingtek.com/ln03-canon-bp-511-dlc511.html"

    The fact that Sterlingtek sells on eBay, with higher shipping charges,
    for more than they sell for on their own store-front, is immaterial.
     
    SMS, Dec 5, 2005
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