NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by void, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. void

    Paul Allen Guest

    If I were choosing between the S2 IS and Panasonic's FZ5, the power
    source might be enough to give up the superior optics of the FZ5.
    The Canon's got a better movie mode, a menu-operated manual focus,
    quite good image quality, and convenient batteries. That would be
    a tough one.

    The FZ30 is a different beast. It's got twice the pixels (235k vs
    115k) on the EVF and the LCD, making it somewhat easier to focus in
    manual mode. It's got a (fly-by-wire) focus ring on the lens, along
    with a mechanically-linked zoom ring. It's got an 8Mp sensor instead
    of 5. The tripod mount is directly in line with the lens. The lens
    has regular threads for filters rather than needing an adapter. Other
    than higher than usual noise at high ISO's, it's just about perfect
    in its class.
    Looks like I'm waiting anyway, so it's moot. ;-)
    Some of the Lumixes? A lot of people were disappointed by the FZ30.
    I guess they expected it to magically be a dSLR since it looks so
    much like one. As I recall, the FZ5 and S2 IS were about par for
    small-sensor cameras. You can find quantitative noise measurements
    at dpreview.com, I think.
    I haven't seen anything from Sony (in the sub-$600 class) that attracts
    me, and I'm about as adverse to Memory Sticks as you are to Li ion
    batteries. :)

    Paul Allen
     
    Paul Allen, Dec 3, 2005
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  2. void

    Paul Allen Guest

    Possibly. I often carry a tripod, so the lack of IS wouldn't be
    fatal. The better noise characteristics almost (but not quite)
    cancel the lack of IS when handheld, and with a tripod, the Fuji
    would be usable in lower light than the FZ30.

    My trouble is that I used an FZ10 for a weekend and absolutely
    fell in love with it. The FZ30 is reported to be everything the
    FZ10/15/20 models were, and then some. I haven't touched either
    he S2 IS or the S9000, so I don't have the same lust in my heart
    for them. :)

    Paul Allen
     
    Paul Allen, Dec 3, 2005
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  3. void

    SMS Guest

    The IS can be very useful. I recently accompanied my son's class on a
    field trip to a museum. In this museum, there is no flash photography,
    and tripods are not allowed. I tried to take some pictures by holding
    the camera extremely steady, but in some areas the light was so low that
    it just wasn't possible.
     
    SMS, Dec 3, 2005
  4. void

    SMS Guest

    The competition to the FZ30 is more the Nikon Coolpix 8800 with its
    vibration reduction feature. Neither are outstanding in terms of noise,
    but that's to be expected with the pixel size.

    For $600, with lens, the Dynax 5D is a much better deal, you get IS, you
    get low noise, and it uses a Li-Ion battery, and Compact Flash. However
    no vertical grip is available to use AA batteries.
     
    SMS, Dec 3, 2005
  5. void

    Paul Allen Guest

    I think you need to go read the reviews again. The sensor in
    the FZ30 is disappointing, but I haven't seen any reviews claiming
    "high" noise levels at low ISO sensitivities. There have been a
    lot of loud claims of "high noise" on this newsgroup, but you know
    how reliable such chatter is.

    Since I don't expect to use any small-sensor camera (other than
    perhaps the Fuji S9000) at other than it's lowest ISO setting, the
    point is moot. And besides, I'm in love with the feel and the
    usability of the big FZ's. You're not going to counter that with
    rational argument, and certainly not with exaggeration. :)

    Paul Allen
     
    Paul Allen, Dec 3, 2005
  6. void

    Paul Allen Guest

    And it's overblown as far as I can see. The other issue is that the
    Panasonic uses an inconvenient battery.
    Unacceptable for whom, exactly? High-end small-sensor cameras seem
    to be selling well despite their noise characteristics. The lack of
    ISO 1600 is a drawback, but it is obviously not unacceptable to all.
    Really? How much would it cost to equip a 5D with a 38-425mm range,
    with f/3.7 at the long end? How large a bag would it take to carry
    it all? How much would it weigh? If I'm willing to lug around an FZ30
    and the equivalent 5D setup is only a little bit more, then my choice is
    made, right?

    Paul Alen
     
    Paul Allen, Dec 3, 2005
  7. void

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    Is this the generally-accepted view of a ZLR ?
    If so, I just misused terminology in another thread.
    I thought EVF cameras are a type of ZLR.

    "NiMH is the technology of today, Li Ion is the technology of tomorrow."
     
    Bill Tuthill, Dec 3, 2005
  8. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    I have it (Olympus E-100RS). It's not THAT big a deal. I won't say
    it's useless, but I think some people overestimate it.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
  9. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    If by better ones you mean professional ones, yeah, actual
    professional users don't care what things cost, since they just pass
    the expenses on to their clients. All consumer Nikon DSLR's have ways
    to avoid Nikon's lithium ion packs. The D200 and D100 have a vertical
    handgrip that takes AA's. The D70 and D70S can take the MS-D70 holder
    which uses three CR2's. The MS-D70 may also work in the D100/D200; I
    don't know. It may also be possible to modify the MS-D70 to use
    commodity 17500 or 18500 lithium ion cells instead of being stuck
    buying packs from Nikon. I don't know much about Canon DSLR's. Fuji
    DSLR's which are considerably more upscale than the D70/D70S/EOS-10D
    use AA's directly. They're priced at around the D200/EOS-20D level
    which would mean they position themselves among "the better ones".
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
  10. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Nikon made sure that the $10 aftermarket pack won't work in the D200.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
  11. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Since I'm not thinking of buying a D70 or 20D, I don't see why I
    should compare against the D70 or 20D batteries. That the D200 can't
    use those aftermarket batteries is not a coincidence. The D200 is the
    latest model and it shows what Nikon is really up to.

    You seem to imagine that $10 aftermarket batteries will be available
    for the D200 as soon as the D200 is introduced, or not much later. I
    expect it will take a lot longer. It took several years for it to
    happen with the Sony InfoLithium system.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
  12. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    The laptop pack I want right now (Thinkpad X40) is about $100 and it's
    equivalent to nine AA's, not 24. The laptop is 1 year old so
    aftermarket packs are JUST beginning to appear and they're (for now)
    almost as expensive as the manufacturer's packs. For my older laptop
    (made in 2000) there's reasonably priced aftermarket packs now. At
    the time the older laptop was made, there were none, and manufacturer
    packs were $200+, not $100.

    For the bigger packs (which go on bigger laptops) they could use C or
    D cells (6000 or 12000 mAH) or commodity li ion cells in a cartridge.
    More sensible would be settle on some standard sizes of battery packs.
    Duracell tried to bring about something like that in the 90's and a
    few laptops (Compaq Contura Aero?) used those packs but they never
    really caught on. The other thing they could do is make the packs
    more servicable, so the internal cells (usually commodity 18650 cells)
    can be replaced when the pack goes bad. Instead they do what they can
    to prevent that.

    The ancient Thinkpad 235 (Japan market, sold here as Hitachi
    Visionbook Traveler) used two packs that looked suspiciously like
    camcorder packs, and surprise, Sony NP-F550 packs fit in the slots and
    run the laptop just fine. I'd be delighted if newer laptops could use
    those packs and also the larger packs like the NP-F960 (7.2V 6000 mAH
    in aftermarket version). Those aftermarket packs are about the best
    deal in li ion packs and I may hack up an external pack for my X40
    using them.

    Some people think fuel cells may replace lithium ion in laptops.
    We'll see if the laptop vendors make us buy their own proprietary
    fuel. Car manufacturers haven't managed to do that but they would if
    they could.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
  13. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    I thought the R1 could use CF, but I'm averse to Sony these days, even
    when the product is good, because of the spyware thing (it had slipped
    my mind when I posted that).
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
  14. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    I think the term has gotten perverted but since it was invented fairly
    recently by marketers to begin with, I guess I don't care that much.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
  15. void

    SMS Guest

    SMS, Dec 3, 2005
  16. void

    ASAAR Guest

    That would allow for very inexpensive battery packs. But I'd
    never trust one that used that many cells to not die an early death
    due to at least one or two cells quickly succumbing to the effects
    of reverse polarity. How would you know when the first AA dropped
    below 0.9 volts? It would be nice if laptops had accurate low
    battery voltage detectors - of individual cells, not the entire
    pack. Despite the widely shared conventional wisdom that NiMH cells
    have too flat a voltage discharge curve to be useful as a battery
    meter, one of my Sangean radios has a high res. multi-segmented
    battery indictor that very accurately predicts when the 4 AA NiMH
    cells need to be recharged. Even without monitoring individual
    cells, it hasn't yet ruined any batteries. That's much more than I
    can expect from Sony's products, which seem designed to be battery
    destroyers.
     
    ASAAR, Dec 3, 2005
  17. The term ZLR has moved on from the original definition that Paul gave.
    It's now used to describe a camera with SLR-like appearance and full
    manual control, compared to the compact pocket-sized point-and-shoot
    offering no manual control. Of course, you can easily find cameras which
    fall between the two extremes.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 3, 2005
  18. void

    SMS Guest

    You know, the weakness of your position is evident to everyone when your
    frame of reference is the battery of camera that isn't even on the
    market yet. Why don't you instead look at the batteries for the most
    popular D-SLRs on the market, the EOS-350D, the EOS-20D, the D50, and
    the D70/D70s. Well we all know why--these cameras all have after-market
    Li_Ion batteries available that are about the same cost as a set of four
    high-capacity NiMH cells.

    If the D200 is wildly successful, as expected, then no doubt there will
    be after-market batteries available within a few months after its release.
     
    SMS, Dec 3, 2005
  19. void

    SMS Guest

    Not instantly available, but within a few months. If not, that's a good
    reason to not buy a Nikon D-SLR, among the many other reasons that
    already exist to avoid Nikon products.

    You may not realize this yet, but the whole world doesn't revolve around
    the fact that you may be thinking of buying a Nikon D200 when it comes
    out. Aside from that camera, not yet on the market, the other popular
    D-SLRs, as well as compact cameras, have after-market Li-Ion batteries
    readily available.
     
    SMS, Dec 3, 2005
  20. void

    Paul Rubin Guest

    None of those packs have microprocessors in them. That's why the
    aftermarket was able to respond fairly quickly. That's why Nikon made
    the D200 refuse to use packs without the processor: to slow down the
    aftermarket.
    That's another dishonest thing you've been doing for a while, that I
    only vaguely noticed before. You're comparing schlock off-brand li
    ion packs that you have to buy online, to the top-brand NimH cells
    that you can buy in actual stores. If you want to compare off brand
    li ion packs to NiMH cells, that's fine, but compare off-brand to
    off-brand, e.g.:

    http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=245

    These are about half the price of the Sanyo cells that I like to use.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 3, 2005
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