Network Engineer - let's define our terms!

Discussion in 'Cisco' started by newsreader, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. newsreader

    Memnoch Guest

    Perhaps it would be the greatest thing that someone did in their life. Does
    that mean that there is something wrong? Hardly, unless of course you happen
    to be a Nobel prize winner then of course you may be looking down on them. The
    point is that for some people it may be.
    Probably but I would just plonk them I guess. You have to admit that the CCIE
    is a considerable achievement though. Perhaps those who were getting the most
    upset were just jealous?
    Memnoch, Sep 15, 2003
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  2. newsreader

    Bernie Guest

    On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:58:33 +0100, Memnoch

    First off, trolls don't openly label their posts as "OT" to help those
    who want to filter out topics they aren't interested in. Second,
    trolls aren't people that regularly post on topic content even if they
    occasionally post off topic stuff. Third, trolls aren't those whose
    opinions were specifically asked for. Fourth, trolls aren't people
    who are accepted, respected, and appreciated by the "regulars" of the
    group...i.e. you are not a regular and wouldn't know. Fifth, the
    definition of troll is not someone that posts an opinion that you
    personally don't like or don't agree with.

    Lastly, do a small bit of research before assuming someone is a troll.
    It will save you from getting flamed in the aftermath. You know what
    they say about ass-u-me(ing)...
    That wasn't his opinion exactly. And even if it was, he has a right
    to hold it as he is a CCIE. Since you mentioned becoming a doctor,
    who has a right to have and speak opinions on being/becoming a doctor?
    A janitor of course... No, those who are doctors. Now it is a free
    country and you can dismiss out of pocket those opinions, but if
    anyone has earned/bought the right to express their opinion it is that
    If the only goal was to simply become a doctor for the sheer joy of
    bragging about it afterwards, then I would have the same opinion as
    nrf expressed (not the opinion you claimed he expressed). I wouldn't
    want to go to a doctor whose only goal was becoming a doctor. I would
    much prefer to go to a doctor whose goals include being the best
    doctor they can be and saving as many lives as possible. Maybe even
    they could have the goal of becoming respected in their chosen field
    of medicine, winning an award or two, or being asked to speak at
    certain conferences. Who knows, but at least they have motivation to
    keep climbing in their field.

    And the other type of doctor who I don't want to put my life in the
    hands of is the doctor that answers my questions with, "Because I said
    so and I am a doctor!" If they can't explain why my kidney needs to
    be removed, then I don't think they are very credible authorities to
    be operating on my body.
    Not exactly an apples to apples comparison... How about if he stated
    "da da da...if they wanted their MD?" instead. The answer is if he is
    a doctor then, yes, why couldn't he hold and state that opinion?
    Maybe some doctors need to be reminded that their job is to save
    lives, not to get their MD and then proceed to brag about it to

    Regardless, the gist of his comment holds true for any professional
    qualification, MD, PhD, CCIE, ASE (mechanics), etc. If the goal is to
    earn a title and then sit back, do nothing more, and brag for the next
    40 years until retirement, then there is something missing. Call it
    ambition, call it motivation, call it professional pride,
    whatever...but whatever you want to call it, it is missing
    It doesn't take a Google search to spot someone that is not a regular.
    Not only did he not claim to search, he specifically said that it was
    simply the first time he saw you post, not that you had never, ever
    posted, period.

    Bernie, Sep 15, 2003
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  3. newsreader

    Bernie Guest

    I am just relaying the words of a math professor I once had....

    "Business students are some of the most mediocre students in public
    universities." He went on to point out that about 90% of the business
    school curriculum is simple common sense, etc.

    Bernie, Sep 15, 2003
  4. newsreader

    Hansang Bae Guest

    To make it clear...I'm not (and I don't think Bernie/nrf et al) are
    slamming business degrees. I'm just saying that business course are
    easier than technical (hard science/engineering) courses. It's my
    opinion, but I think it's regarded as de facto truth elsewhere as well.

    I've taken both types of courses and senior level business courses
    didn't *even* compare to upper level engineering courses. I still
    shiver thinking about "Data Structures" or "Complex Variables"

    The latter just never clicked for me.

    Good think I'm in a business program now! :)



    "Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
    *************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
    Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
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    Hansang Bae, Sep 15, 2003
  5. newsreader

    nrf Guest

    Once again, I would go back to one of my original tenets in that while
    business programs as a whole may not be difficult, what is difficult about
    some (not all, but some) business programs is getting admitted to them in
    the first place. Of all the guys I know that went to elite MBA schools -
    Chicago, Wharton/Penn, Sloan/MIT, Kellogg/Northwestern, Haas/Berkeley,
    Harvard, etc. all of them concur that the programs themselves really aren't
    very hard. What's hard was doing all the things that got them admitted -
    amassing impressive work histories at some of the most elite companies in
    the world, getting high grades as undergrads, doing well on their
    standardized tests, trying to write good essays, etc. etc. Therefore, if
    you look at those programs as a whole, including what it takes to get in,
    you must conclude that some business programs as a whole are extremely
    nrf, Sep 15, 2003
  6. newsreader

    Memnoch Guest

    Again that is just your opinion. You have to accept the fact that for some
    people that may be what they want, whether it is for the money they can gain
    from such a career who knows but there you go.
    You are comparing apples to oranges there my friend. All of these things are
    only more important if you wish them to be. Perhaps atheletes who strive for a
    gold medal in a particular event. Or boxers who aiming for a world title, who
    laets face it aren't exactly the most modest of people. If you went to them
    and said "Yeah, you took a pounding but won in the end, but I tell you what,
    it isn't as hard as raising a kid!" I don't think it would carry a lot of
    weight with them. For instance, I have no solid intentions of having children.
    I may do in the future but right now I don't so therefore at this point in
    time raising children isn't high on my list. Caring for my parent is though.
    Number 4 as well but that's getting back to the fact that a CCIE is bragging
    about it. You originally mentioned the word priorities. Note that I am not
    saying that taking care of your kids isn't important, its that it isn't high
    on MY priorities list, but when and if I have my own then it will be right up
    at the top as I despise those who would rather stay at work than go home to
    their family. I know because I work with one unfortunately.
    All good points I'm sure but new parents who brag about their kids and bring
    their kids photos to work and stuff them under your nose really annoy me. I
    don't take pictures of my pet dogs and throw them about, unless they ask of
    course. :)
    Memnoch, Sep 15, 2003
  7. newsreader

    Sean Guest

    Difficulty is more of a per person thing. I had MUCH more difficulty with
    business related classes than with scientific based classes. I took
    electrical engineering classes, and everything just seemed to make sense
    to me. But that's where my passion lies. If I had it my way, I'd be
    designing processors, not networks, but other choices in my life have me
    living in a place where those jobs just aren't available.
    Sorry off topic a little. I just mean that people's mindset determines
    the difficulty. For people who just aren't very technically oriented,
    CCIE could very well be the hardest thing they've ever done. For me.. it
    was English and Business. :)
    Sean, Sep 15, 2003
  8. newsreader

    nrf Guest

    Aha, so I see that you know what I'm talking about. You too are annoyed by
    people who have 'misplaced pride'.

    Let's be clear. There's nothing wrong with people who are trying to better
    themselves. There is something wrong with people who carry around an
    inflated ego. Just because you accomplish something like the ccie doesn't
    mean that you're great and you're allowed to run a victory lap.

    In fact, I would extend the argument to say that if you're truly great, you
    don't need to say it yourself, other people will say it for you. The very
    best guys have no need to brag about anything, their work and reputation
    speak for themselves. I'm sure we all agree that anybody who calls
    themselves great actually cheapens themselves and betrays possible
    nrf, Sep 15, 2003
  9. newsreader

    Hansang Bae Guest

    That was me. The one being annoyed. Until I had my son. My whole
    world changed. I actually told one of my coworkers....sorry, can't help
    you with the outage...gotta go home!

    You're speaking to a guy who as one friend said it "if dogs get to
    decide who goes to're SET!"

    It'll change. Truse me! :)



    "Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
    *************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
    Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
    reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
    Hansang Bae, Sep 16, 2003
  10. What about the CCIE who sets up the network the doctors use to save lives?!

    To become a doctor I know requires seven years very hard work and
    dedication. I would imagine that a similar amount of dedication and work
    would be required for a degree graduate to pursue a CCIE straight from uni,
    without any industrial or commercial experience. I presume that all the
    CCIEs in this group have lots of good experience which essentially is what
    makes your certifications easier.

    Richard Foster, Sep 16, 2003
  11. newsreader

    nrf Guest


    First of all, I think you'd be quite surprised to find how technically
    backwards the health-care industry actually is. I would venture to say that
    doctors don't use actually use a whole lot of data-networking in their
    day-to-day activities.

    Second of all, if you really want to start going down that road, then why
    not also credit the electrician who installed the lights in the operating
    room? Or the general contractors and construction workers who built the
    hospital in the first place? Hey, using the same argument, without
    electricity and an actual building, the doctor wouldn't be able to save
    lives, so why not give credit to all these guys? Let's face it, when it
    comes to saving lives, the doctor is far and away the front-man and
    everybody else is just ancillary.

    The 2 (MD and ccie) are so far apart in both difficulty and breadth that
    they really cannot be compared. To do so is to be completely unfair to
    It is true that good experience does make the certification easier. But any
    comparison between the ccie and the MD is completely inappropriate.
    nrf, Sep 16, 2003
  12. newsreader

    Bernie Guest

    Let's be honest here. Network design is not any more challenging in a
    hospital environment than any others. The vendors make this extremely
    easy. They map out the basic networks: e.g. 1) Basic design, 2) Basic
    Design plus Redundancy, 3) Basic Design plus Redundancy plus
    Scalability, 4) etc.

    It takes little effort to figure out how Cisco envisions their
    products configured in relibility/resiliency mode. They tell you
    exactly how to do it, and all you have to do is select the model you
    want and adapt it to the specific circumstances.

    Basically, with Cisco you just start drawing cris-crosses between
    every quad of network gear and you have the "redundant" flavor of
    network design. Not that network design can be done by any village
    idiot, I am certainly not saying that. Just that adding reliability
    to a design is not really that hard because the vendors tell you how
    to make sample designs into redundant designs. So Hospitals are no
    more challenging than say manufacturing environments. In fact, I'd
    say that the way the world works on money, manufacturing environments
    can sometimes be even more challenging because they know that downtime
    equates to X million dollars per hour, or in some cases more than
    that. Many financial institutions or surveillance companies use IP
    multicast which makes for much more complex environments.

    Anyway the point is that hospitals have nothing that special or unique
    that makes building networks into a MD-like task.
    Bernie, Sep 16, 2003
  13. newsreader

    Memnoch Guest

    So how is it with all those years of long arduous training do you see doctors
    in their twenties? Have they specialised in something like fingernails? ;-)
    Memnoch, Sep 17, 2003
  14. newsreader

    nrf Guest


    Typical timeline is this. You graduate from undergrad when you're 21 or 22.
    Then you go to med school and you graduate from that when you're 25-26. At
    that time, you're granted an MD, so technically speaking, you're a doctor.

    But not really. As HB said, while you're now technically a doctor, in order
    to 'really' become a true practicing doctor (in the sense that you can
    effectively run your own operations), you have to go through internship,
    residency, and all that jazz.
    nrf, Sep 17, 2003
  15. newsreader

    Bernie Guest

    And there are some medical programs that are accelerated as well, such
    as 7 year combined undergrad + med school. That would put some
    graduating at 24-25.

    Bernie, Sep 18, 2003
  16. Basic timeline for MD training in the USA:

    Age 18 - Graduate from HS
    Age 22 - Graduate from BA or BS program
    Age 26 - Graduate from medical school
    Age 29 - Complete 3 year residency program (e.g., GP or peds)

    Note that unless you check the length of the white coat, you might
    not notice that the young "doctor" attending you in the emergency
    room is a 3rd year med student, not a licensed MD.

    Note that the individual is an MD as soon as they graduate from medical
    school, they just are not licensed to practice medicine without
    supervision until after they complete their residency program. No
    comment on the "closeness" of that supervision.

    Note that there are ways to accelerate the program, such as combined
    Bachalaureate MD programs, which IIRC compresses the College + Med
    School timeline by two years, and those who start grammar school early,
    or simply attending summer sessions to get the bachelor's in 3 years.

    Hint: whatever you do, avoid going to a hospital in July when the
    new crop of interns has just arrived and everyone up and down the
    ladder from new attending physicians to 3rd year med students are
    just learning their new roles :)

    Disclaimer: The above are my observations based on two kids who
    decided that fixing people was more fun than fixing computers like dad.
    One is in her second year of residency (the first year of residency is
    commonly called the intern year), the other is a 3rd year med student.
    Yes, shortly I will be the father of a paradox.

    As always, your mileage may vary. As for me, I never did figure out
    the rational of a Doctor of Philosophy in Engineering...
    Vincent C Jones, Sep 18, 2003
  17. newsreader

    Hansang Bae Guest

    Kids these days....such slackers! :)

    Very impressive Vincent! Must be very proud!



    "Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
    *************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
    Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
    reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
    Hansang Bae, Sep 19, 2003
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