Merry Christmas

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Alan Browne, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. Alan Browne

    Bill Funk Guest

    That estimate assumes that the status quo would have remained.
    If, OTOH, SH had decided the Kurds were no longer to be tolerated, he
    could very well have launched a 'cleansing.'
     
    Bill Funk, Jan 2, 2007
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  2. Alan Browne

    Ken Lucke Guest

    Uhm, I think that if you re-read the thread, he's listing some of the
    bad useages that people do, not listing those as correct. :^)

    --
    You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
    reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
    the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
    independence.
    -- Charles A. Beard
     
    Ken Lucke, Jan 2, 2007
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  3. Alan Browne

    Frank ess Guest

    I think "Hi is" is a subtle reference to _Raising Arizona_.
     
    Frank ess, Jan 2, 2007
  4. Alan Browne

    Cynicor Guest

    "Could have." He also "could have" launched an attack on Ireland. But he
    didn't, and he didn't, and our war has been responsible for over half a
    million additional deaths.
     
    Cynicor, Jan 2, 2007
  5. It seems to me that most of the killing is being done by Saddam Hussein
    supporters, and not by British or American troops. The British and
    American troops might have upset those who had a comfortable living
    before the invasion, but that is not enough reason for those same Saddam
    Hussein supporters to slaughter their neighbours because they have now
    had their nose put out of joint. Put the blame where it belongs, on
    those that are doing the killing, and not on those that went there to
    try and prevent it, no matter how misguided this now appears to have
    been with the benefit of hindsight.
     
    Harry Stottle, Jan 2, 2007
  6. Alan Browne

    Cynicor Guest

    Er..."most of" the killing? So Shi'ites have done a minority of the
    killing? At least it's not being blamed on al-Qaeda.
    "You forgot Poland."
    So the reason for the invasion was to try and prevent sectarian violence?
     
    Cynicor, Jan 2, 2007
  7. If you listen carefully to what Blair said before the invasion, I
    believe that the oppression and sectarian violence carried out by Saddam
    Hussein and his supporters was part of the reason for him agreeing with
    the invasion. He was happy to go along with the 'weapons of mass
    destruction' theory because it fitted in with his ideals against that
    oppression.
     
    Harry Stottle, Jan 2, 2007
  8. Alan Browne

    Bill K Guest

    Hmm. . .let's see. The former Soviet Union was an atheist state--the
    opium of the masses and all that. China is an atheist state. That
    brings to mind, Afghanistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Tibet. . .just
    name a few.
     
    Bill K, Jan 2, 2007
  9. Alan Browne

    Cynicor Guest

    The United States has no state religion.
     
    Cynicor, Jan 2, 2007
  10. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    Soviet Union is no more. And Marxist/Leninist Bolshevism for all its
    "official" atheism, was as much of a religion as scientology is.

    China is almost as mixed a bag religion-wise as the US (christians,
    muslims, buddists, confucians ...don't know about wiccans); Afghanistan
    is predominantly muslim; Hungary, the Czech Replublic & Slovakia are
    mostly Roman Catholic AFAIK; Tibet is buddist ...
     
    Pudentame, Jan 3, 2007
  11. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    But SH *didn't*. GWB did.
     
    Pudentame, Jan 3, 2007
  12. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    About 70% Shiites murdering Sunnis; about 20% Sunnis murdering Shiites,
    and about 10% Shiites & Sunnis trying to kill Americans and other
    foreigners.

    It's like the sign in the antiques shop says, "You break it, you bought it!"
     
    Pudentame, Jan 3, 2007
  13. Alan Browne

    Mark² Guest

    There's a huge difference between not having a state religion, and being an
    atheist state.
     
    Mark², Jan 3, 2007
  14. You are wasting your time.....Every Iraqi death since the instant that we
    started our invasion, and lasting for the rest of time, is going to be laid
    directly on the shoulders of George Bush....That goes without
    saying........Oh....That goes for every American death, too.........
     
    William Graham, Jan 3, 2007
  15. Alan Browne

    Bill Funk Guest

    But SH did use a WMD on the Kurds in 1988.
    Are we to assume he would not have done so again?
    And the use of the word 'responsible" is, IMO, reckless; the way SH
    kept the inter-necine warfare under control is well documented. Are we
    to think that you think such mesasures are better than freedom?

    --
    Democrat John Edwards stood in the
    hurricane-ravaged ninth ward of
    New Orleans with a shovel in his
    hands Thursday and announced he's
    running for president. He promised
    an end to poverty and free health
    care for all. That explains the shovel.
     
    Bill Funk, Jan 3, 2007
  16. Alan Browne

    Bill Funk Guest

    No, he didn't.
    First, SH did use WMDs agains the Kurds in 1988. DO some research,and
    see why he did.
    Now, explain how GWB is behind, or in any way, responsible for the
    sectarian violence.
    Oh, yes, the toppling of SH removed the restraints on it, but it's not
    accurate to say that Bush is responsible for it. It was going on for a
    long time before Bush was born.


    --
    Democrat John Edwards stood in the
    hurricane-ravaged ninth ward of
    New Orleans with a shovel in his
    hands Thursday and announced he's
    running for president. He promised
    an end to poverty and free health
    care for all. That explains the shovel.
     
    Bill Funk, Jan 3, 2007
  17. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    And used them in the Iran-Iraq war before that, although
    chemical/biological weapons are technically *not* weapons of mass
    destruction.

    Here's what the CIA had to say about SH use of chemical weapons against
    the Kurds: (I found this on a public DoD website about Gulf War Syndrome)


    DIRECTOR OF

    CENTRAL

    INTELLIGENCE




    IMPACT AND IMPLICATIONS OF

    CHEMICAL WEAPONS USE IN THE

    IRAN-IRAQ WAR


    (====================)

    IRAQI USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS TO SUBDUE THE KURDISH

    POPULATION INSIDE IRAQ, ALONG THE TRIBORDER AREA WITH

    IRAN AND TURKEY, IS QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT FROM THE USE

    OF CHEMICALS AGAINST ANOTHER COUNTRY. THE IRAQIS HAVE

    PRIMARILY USED RIOT CONTROL AGENTS AND POSSIBLY, IN SOME

    CASES, CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDS TO MINIMIZE

    THE DIVERSION OF TROOPS FROM MORE CRITICAL FRONTS AND THE

    LOSSES THAT MIGHT OCCUR IN INACCESSIBLE AREAS THAT FAVOR

    GUERRILLA FORCES.

    (====================)

    Chemical weapons are "mass casualty" weapons, weapons that sicken and
    kill, but do very little damage to physical structures. A 500lb bomb is
    a weapon of mass destruction; so is a truck bomb or an improvised
    fuel-air munition; a chemical weapons is not.

    But, regarding SH's use of chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war, and
    the use of those weapons against the Kurds came in the context of that
    war, there are some questions you should find answers to ...

    Who sold SH the equipment to manufacture chemical weapons?

    Who sold SH the materials needed, the basic chemical stocks?

    Who provided the military intelligence; the wind & weather data
    necessary for successful employment of chemical weapons; the "aerial"
    photography of Iranian positions in Abadan and behind Khorramshahr, the
    lines of trenches on the eastern side of the Karun river, the tank
    revetments all the way up to the Turkish border; the real time data on
    Iranian troop movements that allowed SH to attack Iranian forces with
    chemical as well as conventional weapons?



    This'll help you get started.

    Excerpts from _"United States Chemical and Biological Warfare-related
    Dual-use exports to Iraq and their possible impact on the Health
    Consequences of the Persian Gulf War"_

    http://www.gulfweb.org/report/riegle1.html

    (====================)

    In October 1992, the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs,
    which has Senate oversight responsibility for the Export Administration
    Act (EAA), held an inquiry into the U.S. export policy to Iraq prior to
    the Persian Gulf War. During that hearing it was learned that U.N.
    inspectors identified many U.S. - manufactured items exported pursuant
    to licenses issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce that were used to
    further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and missile
    delivery system development programs.

    (====================)


    U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq

    The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has
    oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to
    the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and
    requested information on the export of biological materials during the
    years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we
    contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if
    any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an
    offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available
    from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that
    during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic
    (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were
    exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S.
    Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available,
    according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not
    attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. According to
    the Department of Defense's own Report to Congress on the Conduct of the
    Persian Gulf War, released in April 1992: "By the time of the invasion
    of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. It's advanced and
    aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab
    world... The program probably began late in the 1970's and concentrated
    on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax
    bacteria... Large scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four
    facilities in Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from
    simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles."

    Included in the approved sales are the following biological materials
    (which have been considered by various nations for use in war), with
    their associated disease symptoms:

    Bacillus Anthracis: anthrax is a disease producing bacteria identified
    by the Department of Defense in The Conduct of the Persian Gulf War:
    Final Report to Congress, as being a major component in the Iraqi
    biological warfare program.

    Anthrax is an often fatal infectious disease due to ingestion of spores.
    It begins abruptly with high fever, difficulty in breathing, and chest
    pain. The disease eventually results in septicemia (blood poisoning),
    and the mortality is high. Once septicemia is advanced, antibiotic
    therapy may prove useless, probably because the exotoxins remain,
    despite the death of the bacteria.

    Clostridium Botulinum: A bacterial source of botulinum toxin, which
    causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache,
    fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of
    the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal.

    Histoplasma Capsulatum: causes a disease superfically resembling
    tuberculosis that may cause pneumonia, enlargement of the liver and
    spleen, anemia, an influenza like illness and an acute inflammatory skin
    disease marked by tender red nodules, usually on the shins. Reactivated
    infection usually involves the lungs, the brain, spinal membranes,
    heart, peritoneum, and the adrenals.

    Brucella Melitensis: a bacteria which can cause chronic fatique, loss of
    appetite, profuse sweating when at rest, pain in joints and muscles,
    insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs.

    Clostridium Perfringens: a highly toxic bateria which causes gas
    gangrene. The bacteria produce toxins that move along muscle bundles in
    the body killing cells and producing necrotic tissue that is then
    favorable for further growth of the bacteria itself. Eventually, these
    toxins and bacteria enter the bloodstream and cause a systemic illness.

    In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E. Coli) and genetic
    materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to
    the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission.

    The following is a detailed listing of biological materials, provided by
    the American Type Culture Collection, which were exported to agencies of
    the government of Iraq pursuant to the issuance of an export licensed by
    the U.S. Commerce Department:

    Date : February 8, 1985
    Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Agency
    Materials Shipped:

    Ustilago nuda (Jensen) Rostrup

    Date : February 22, 1985
    Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education
    Materials Shipped:

    Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136)
    Class III pathogen

    Date : July 11, 1985
    Sent To : Middle and Near East Regional A
    Material Shipped:

    Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136)
    Class III pathogen

    Date : May 2, 1986
    Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Bacillus Anthracis Cohn (ATCC 10)
    Batch # 08-20-82 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    2. Bacillus Subtilis (Ehrenberg) Cohn (ATCC 82)
    Batch # 06-20-84 (2 each)

    3. Clostridium botulinum Type A (ATCC 3502)
    Batch # 07-07-81 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    4. Clostridium perfringens (Weillon and Zuber) Hauduroy, et al
    (ATCC 3624)
    Batch # 10-85SV (2 each)

    5. Bacillus subtilis (ATCC 6051)
    Batch # 12-06-84 (2 each)

    6. Francisella tularensis var. tularensis Olsufiev (ATCC 6223)
    Batch # 05-14-79 (2 each)
    Avirulent, suitable for preparations of diagnotic antigens

    7. Clostridium tetani (ATCC 9441)
    Batch # 03-84 (3 each)
    Highly toxigenic

    8. Clostridium botulinum Type E (ATCC 9564)
    Batch # 03-02-79 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    9. Clostridium tetani (ATCC 10779)
    Batch # 04-24-84S (3 each)

    10. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 12916)
    Batch #08-14-80 (2 each)
    Agglutinating type 2

    11. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 13124)
    Batch #07-84SV (3 each)
    Type A, alpha-toxigenic, produces lecithinase C.J. Appl.

    12. Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14185)
    Batch #01-14-80 (3 each)
    G.G. Wright (Fort Detrick)
    V770-NP1-R. Bovine Anthrax
    Class III pathogen

    13. Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14578)
    Batch #01-06-78 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    14. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 14581)
    Batch #04-18-85 (2 each)

    15. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 14945)
    Batch #06-21-81 (2 each)

    16. Clostridium botulinum Type E (ATCC 17855)
    Batch # 06-21-71
    Class III pathogen

    17. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 19213)
    Batch #3-84 (2 each)

    18. Clostridium botulinum Type A (ATCC 19397)
    Batch # 08-18-81 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    19. Brucella abortus Biotype 3 (ATCC 23450)
    Batch # 08-02-84 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    20. Brucella abortus Biotype 9 (ATCC 23455)
    Batch # 02-05-68 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    21. Brucella melitensis Biotype 1 (ATCC 23456)
    Batch # 03-08-78 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    22. Brucella melitensis Biotype 3 (ATCC 23458)
    Batch # 01-29-68 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    23. Clostribium botulinum Type A (ATCC 25763)
    Batch # 8-83 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    24. Clostridium botulinum Type F (ATCC 35415)
    Batch # 02-02-84 (2 each)
    Class III pathogen

    Date : August 31, 1987
    Sent To : State Company for Drug Industries
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Saccharomyces cerevesiae (ATCC 2601)
    Batch # 08-28-08 (1 each)

    2. Salmonella choleraesuis subsp. choleraesuis Serotype typhi
    (ATCC 6539)
    Batch # 06-86S (1 each)

    3. Bacillus subtillus (ATCC 6633)
    Batch # 10-85 (2 each)

    4. Klebsiella pneumoniae subsp. pneumoniae (ATCC 10031)
    Batch # 08-13-80 (1 each)

    5. Escherichia coli (ATCC 10536)
    Batch # 04-09-80 (1 each)

    6. Bacillus cereus (11778)
    Batch #05-85SV (2 each)

    7. Staphylococcus epidermidis (ATCC 12228)
    Batch # 11-86s (1 each)

    8. Bacillus pumilus (ATCC 14884)
    Batch # 09-08-80 (2 each)

    (====================)

    *INSERT NOTE* - SH attacked Iraqi Kurds with chemical agents in the
    Kurdish town of Halabja in March 1988. Halabja had a population of about
    80,000 people, predominantly Kurdish who sympathized with Iran during
    the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s.

    Troops from the Kurdish Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) entered
    Halabja on 15 March 1988, *accompanied by Iranian revolutionary guards.*
    The Iraqi attack began early in the evening of March 16th.

    The Reagan/Bush Dept of Commerce issued licenses for export *AFTER* SH
    attacked the Kurds in Halabja with chemical weapons in March 1988.

    (====================)

    Date : July 11, 1988
    Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
    Materials Shipped

    1. Escherichia coli (ATCC 11303)
    Batch # 04-875
    Phase host

    2. Cauliflower Mosaic Caulimovirus (ATCC 45031)
    Batch # 06-14-85
    Plant Virus

    3. Plasmid in Agrobacterium Tumefaciens (ATCC 37349)
    (Ti plasmid for co-cultivation with plant integration vectors
    in E. Coli)
    Batch # 05-28-85

    Date : April 26, 1988
    Sent To: : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57236) Phage vector
    Suggest host: E coli

    2. Hulambda14-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57240) Phage vector
    Suggested host: E coli

    3. Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57242) Phage vector
    Suggested host: E. coli

    Date : August 31, 1987
    Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Escherichia coli (ATCC 23846)
    Batch # 07-29-83 (1 each)

    2. Escherichia coli (ATCC 33694)
    Batch # 05-87 (1 each)

    Date : September 29, 1988
    Sent To : Ministry of Trade
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 240)
    Batch # 05-14-63 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    2. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 938)
    Batch # 1963 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    3. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 3629)
    Batch # 10-23-85 (3 each)

    4. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 8009)
    Batch # 03-30-84 (3 each)

    5. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 8705)
    Batch # 06-27-62 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    6. Brucella abortus (ATCC 9014)
    Batch # 05-11-66 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    7. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 10388)
    Batch # 06-01-73 (3 each)

    8. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 11966)
    Batch #05-05-70 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    9. Clostridium botulinum Type A
    Batch # 07-86 (3 each)
    Class III pathogen

    10. Bacillus cereus (ATCC 33018)
    Batch # 04-83 (3 each)

    11. Bacillus ceres (ATCC 33019)
    Batch # 03-88 (3 each)

    Date : January 31, 1989
    Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
    Materials Shipped:

    1. PHPT31, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    (HPRT)
    Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57057)

    2. Plambda500, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    pseudogene (HPRT) Chromosome(s): 5 p14-p13 (ATCC 57212)

    Date : January 17, 1989
    Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    (HPRT) Chromosomes(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57237) Phage vector;
    Suggested host: E. coli

    2. Hulambda14, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57540), Cloned from human
    lymphoblast, Phase vector
    Suggested host: E. coli

    3. Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
    (HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57241) Phage vector;
    Suggested host: E. coli


    Additionally, the Centers for Disease Control has compiled a listing of
    biological materials shipped to Iraq prior to the Gulf War. The listing
    covers the period from October 1, 1984 (when the CDC began keeping
    records) through October 13, 1993. The following materials with
    biological warfare significance were shipped to Iraq during this period.

    Date : November 28, 1989
    Sent To : University of Basrah, College of
    Science, Department of Biology
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Enterococcus faecalis

    2. Enterococcus faecium

    3. Enterococcus avium

    4. Enterococcus raffinosus

    5. Enteroccus gallinarium

    6. Enterococcus durans

    7. Enteroccus hirae

    8. Streptococcus bovis
    (etiologic)

    Date : April 21, 1986
    Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna,
    Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69, House 28/I,
    Baghdad, Iraq
    Materials Shipped:

    1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid
    (non-infectious)

    Date : March 10, 1986
    Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna,
    Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69 House 28/I,
    Baghdad, Iraq
    Materials Shipped:

    1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid #A2
    (non-infectious)

    Date : June 25, 1985
    Sent To : University of Baghdad, College of
    Medicine, Department of Microbiology
    Materials Shipped:

    1. 3 years cultures
    (etiologic)
    Candida sp.

    Date : May 21, 1985
    Sent To : Basrah, Iraq
    Materials Shipped:

    1. Lyophilized arbovirus seed
    (etiologic)

    2. West Nile Fever Virus

    Date : April 26, 1985
    Sent To : Minister of Health, Ministry of
    Health, Baghdad, Iraq
    Materials Shipped:

    1. 8 vials antigen and antisera (r. rickettsii and r. typhi) to
    diagnose rickettsial infections (non-infectious)
     
    Pudentame, Jan 3, 2007
  18. Alan Browne

    Cynicor Guest

    Assume he wouldn't? Hell, he was using them daily against Iran when we
    resumed diplomatic relations with him and helped him with some recon.
    Reagan and Bush also authorized dual use bio-chem supplies to Saddam.

    However, credible reports said that he had no active bio-chem-nuke
    programs. Scott Ritter was 100% correct, and he was basically called
    treasonous.
    It's not up to me to decide what's best for the Iraqi people. And
    "freedom" is quite a strange word to use to describe their current
    situation. Maybe "chaos" or "anarchy."
     
    Cynicor, Jan 4, 2007
  19. Alan Browne

    Bill Funk Guest

    That will be news to those who define Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...fine:+weapons+of+mass+destruction&btnG=Search

    or:

    http://tinyurl.com/y4sbjl

    --
    Louisiana was reported Monday
    by the American Geophysical Union
    to be sliding into the Gulf of
    Mexico. There was an immediate
    uproar. The mayor of New Orleans
    warned that if this happens, the
    city will lose its racial identity
    to the whitefish.
     
    Bill Funk, Jan 4, 2007
  20. William Graham, Jan 5, 2007
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