Merry Christmas

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Alan Browne, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. Yeah.....Basically, the problem is we get bored with just photography,
    photography all the time, and occasionally have to talk about something
    else.....That having been said, one could do a lot worse than photograph
    churches and cathedrals....Some of the best architecture ever created was
    done in the name of God.....Just as is some of the greatest music ever
    written....As a musician, I would be seriously depriving myself should I
    refuse to play anything written in the name of religion.......
     
    William Graham, Jan 1, 2007
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  2. I've met a lot of them.....People like Albert Einstein, and other great
    thinkers who were religious.....But I have noticed that the more intelligent
    they are, the more their religion reduces itself to some basic concept, such
    as, "I believe that some supreme entity created this universe, but I don't
    believe in the Christian myth." And I have no argument with this....There is
    no way I can prove that the universe didn't start somewhere, and it could
    have started with some supreme being as it's initiator. The only reason I am
    an atheist is because, in general, I don't happen to believe that, but I
    can't prove that it isn't so. Most of the time, when I make reference to
    "religious nuts" I am either talking tongue in cheek, or referring to real
    religious nuts....People who would kill me in order to convert me.......
     
    William Graham, Jan 1, 2007
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  3. Alan Browne

    Mark² Guest

    I'm not talking about suffering.
    I'm merely talking about the attitude of giving. As I stated
    clearly...there are benefits to the receiver--no matter WHAT the giver's
    attitude is. I'm only talknig about the difference between those who give
    for personal gain vs. those who give with the simple motivation of
    generosity, etc.
    I've already agreed with that and stated it plainly.
    You don't believe in God, William, so your off the cuff opinion of his
    nature is rather suspect.
    :)
    Who said anything about sin? It's no sin to give with a 4-foot check...or
    however else you want to give. I only mention that according to the
    Bible...in terms of the giver...God cares about the attitude of the giver
    more than the gift itself.
     
    Mark², Jan 1, 2007
  4. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    Actually, it was Nancy Reagan. Ronnie believed in Nancy; Nancy believed
    in astrology.
     
    Pudentame, Jan 1, 2007
  5. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    It comes from being constantly badgered by religious zealots.
     
    Pudentame, Jan 1, 2007
  6. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    If it's not scientifically measurable, it's not "proof".
     
    Pudentame, Jan 1, 2007
  7. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    Some did, some did not ...
     
    Pudentame, Jan 1, 2007
  8. Alan Browne

    Pudentame Guest

    Not according to Jesus:

    Luke 21
    1As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the
    temple treasury. 2He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper
    coins. 3"I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in
    more than all the others. 4All these people gave their gifts out of
    their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

    Luke 20
    45While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples,
    46"Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in
    flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the
    most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at
    banquets. 47They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy
    prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."
     
    Pudentame, Jan 1, 2007
  9. Alan Browne

    J. Clarke Guest

    I've never been "badgered by religious zealots", but then I don't bring
    religion into every conversation either. In fact I try to avoide it as a
    conversational topic--theology is interesting, religion as a
    conversational gambit, on the other hand, is mostly good for starting
    bar-fights.
     
    J. Clarke, Jan 1, 2007
  10. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    Comes to the same thing. Where "cold war decisions" needed
    "astrological" guidance. Nancy Reagan was not the president, so should
    not have been involved beyond moral/spousal support.

    Apparently, she gave great head too. Maybe kept Ronnie Ray-gun cool on
    those tense cold war night.s

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Jan 1, 2007
  11. Alan Browne

    J. Clarke Guest

    In what war conducted while someone named "Bush" was in a position of
    authority did the United States kill 600,000 civilians? Or are you one of
    those misguided souls who thinks that every death listed on Iraqbodycount
    was inflicted by the US military?
     
    J. Clarke, Jan 1, 2007
  12. Alan Browne

    Cynicor Guest

    Now remember, the bipartisan Iraq Study Group found that violent acts
    were being undercounted in Iraq by as much as 90%. As an example, they
    chose one day in July 2006. Our "official" count of violent acts was 93,
    while they were able to identify 1,100.

    The 600,000 number is actually the number of "excess" deaths - deaths
    above what would be expected without the invasion. It was conducted by
    the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health and published in the Lancet.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

    A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more
    people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003
    than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.
     
    Cynicor, Jan 1, 2007
  13. Who said anything about sin? It's no sin to give with a 4-foot check...or
    Just one more reason why I don't believe in Him.....I am bottom line
    oriented, and any God I believed in would be also. It's not His business why
    I give, or to whom I give. After all, it's my money, not God's.....So it's
    my business to whom I give it, and why. If I depended on God to decide where
    to put my money, then the world would be a much worse place than it is
    already.....Most good men spend a lot of their time undoing the screwed up
    works of God.....Helping the victims of Tsunamis, and earthquakes, for
    example.....As a matter of fact, if it weren't for God, we would have it
    made, and not have to do much of the charitable work that we do have to
    do.....God, (IOW) is the real screw up. He's the one who causes most of the
    damage to innocent people and animals.....It's a good thing that I don't
    believe in Him.....If I did, I'd have to hate Him, not worship Him.....
     
    William Graham, Jan 1, 2007
  14. Alan Browne

    Mark² Guest

    Not in terms of strict scientific method, no.
    But there are other forms of evidence. -That they aren't "Admissible" in
    that particular court doesn't always mean they don't contain evidence. It's
    just evidence the scientific court has to exclude by it's own set of
    well-conceieved, legitimate rules. Again...I understand why you might
    exclude evidence you can't tag, quantify, etc. But don't be too quick to
    assume that science holds the ONLY authority upon, or means through which
    truth can be legitimately identified. I am a fan of science, actually. I
    would be the first to criticize those "creationists" who blindly insist
    about a 6 day creation...a young Earth...who feel threatened by Darwin, blah
    blah blah. I think they are following the wrong path to reality, and make
    themselves look a little tunnel-visioned. That said, I do leave room the
    existence of things which science (no matter how advanced it may become)
    will never be able to measure, quantify, confirm or scientifically observe.
     
    Mark², Jan 2, 2007
  15. Alan Browne

    Mark² Guest

    They'll be punished for their heartless and hurtful ways...like "devouring
    widow's houses." In other words...God isn't fond of heartless, wicked
    folk...EVEN IF they "pray" loudly for attention, or give...as a show of
    their wealth, or to impress others, etc.
     
    Mark², Jan 2, 2007
  16. Alan Browne

    Mark² Guest

    That would indeed be the crux of your difficulty with the concepts Jesus put
    forth. A huge cornerstone of Christian belief is that we are to relinquish
    our position of "master of all we survey" and instead se ourselves as
    belonging to God. That's why most do NOT follow him...because that flies in
    the face of human tendencies. If God merely wanted everyone to act however
    they saw fit, Jesus wouldn't have had any reason to come to show a different
    path.

    Anyway... You've hit on the key element, William. That's the crux of
    Christian thought...that you shift the focus from one's self, and decide you
    relinquish the self-centered nature we are all born with. If that were
    easy, or particularly attractive, then everyone would embrace the concept.
    They don't, because it's not easy and not always attractive to bottom-line
    folk such as yourself.

    I can absolutely relate to your thinking, because I tend to be a bottom line
    person too. This is why I have struggled with religion most of my adult
    life, and even before.
    It's always fascinating to me to hear people's takes on natural disasters.
    One of the global warming "threats" for example, is that coastal cities will
    end up under water. Not to say that doesn't matter...because it does...and
    is reason for concern...BUT... It's funny to me that more public folks
    don't put it together that the EARTH itself could CARE LESS if the water
    line consumes cities. It's been ebbing and flowing for millenia in just
    such a fashion. The ONLY reason it's such a big deal to us is because in
    the last number of centuries (in America)...or millenia (in many ancient
    parts of the civilized world)...man has decided we want to build "permanent"
    cities, buildings etc. Were we nomadic folk, it wouldn't make a heck of a
    lot of difference how many tornadoes, cyclones/hurricanes, floods, tsunamis,
    etc. happened. The bulk of the damage is to our little creations. The
    earth itself does just fine with "newly-drawn" coastlines, etc. I don't
    think natural disasters have any spiritual element whatsoever.
    NONE. -Except to the extent that people tend to react spiritually and
    reflectively when they occur. Other than that...what does it matter to the
    Earth (as it was originally created) if a big wave comes, or a hurricane
    digs a trough or two? We build all these little things that WE decide are
    SO all important, and then we blame God when the world carries on as it
    ALWAYS has. Nothing has changed. We've just declared our little choices as
    all important, so we throw a fit at God when the world continues normally
    despite our insistence that it bend to our wishes...and our million dollar
    beach-side homes.

    Further... IDIOT preachers all too often assign all sort of intent to God
    as punishment for this and that. I think they're full of it. The God
    referred to by/in Jesus indicates a God who is chiefly concerned with the
    souls of people, and relationship with them. -NOT how long they live...how
    big their house is...or how smoothly everything goes for them. IF eternity
    is what matters, then the things we attach value to have usually been highly
    over-valued in comparison. This is where we humans (myself included) are at
    odds with the interests of the God described and demonstrated by Jesus.

    Again, William. I'm nobody who could claim I've got it figured out. I have
    doubts, questions, irritations and annoynaces with the whole concept too. I
    just don't dismiss it the way you do. I don't blame you one little bit,
    either.
     
    Mark², Jan 2, 2007
  17. Sure.....I can't hate him, because I don't believe in him.....As far as I've
    been able to determine during my short 71 year lifetime, is that this
    universe is totally, completely random. There is no intelligence whatsoever
    in anything that happens, or has ever happened in the past. It started in
    some completely chaotic big bang, and, if it ever comes back together, it
    will continue in a series of big bangs extending throughout time in the
    future. There is no rhyme or reason behind it, and I really don't see any
    need for there to be any rhyme or reason behind it. There is no fundamental
    law that says anything has to have a "rhyme and/or reason".
    But, by the same token. there is no reason to fabricate some convoluted
    story about what is apparently a random event, either. IOW, the Christian
    myth makes about as much sense as believing in Santa Claus, or any other
    myth......As a matter of fact, it makes a lot less sense than many
    myths.......This universe is far too big a place for me to believe that it's
    creator came down to Earth some 2000 years ago and mucked around in the
    affairs of men for a little while, and then disappeared, never to be seen
    again.....:^) (Sorry, but it is impossible for me to even state such a thing
    without cracking up.....)
     
    William Graham, Jan 2, 2007
  18. Alan Browne

    Mark² Guest

    This universe is far too big a place for me to believe
    A agree with that last section (which I separated by adding a space).
    I don't think that describes, God, though. I think he is, by nature,
    creative. I don't think for a second that he is limited to this little
    blue, wet ball of matter (Earth). I think he's creating all over the
    place... And...I don't think he just popped in...created Earth...and then
    popped out.

    If there is a God...the most amazing aspect would indeed be just that, as
    in: Why would he even give a crap? What would it matter to him if we live
    or die like any other bacteria on this or any other planet? I don't know,
    other than what I believe about the nature of God's character. It will
    always sound ridiculous, because we are nothing in the vast scheme of the
    universe.

    There's an interesting verse in the Bible that speaks of God and says, "He
    remembers that we are dust." That is a direct reflection on a similar
    thought to your own. Why would he give a crap about us? -We are, after
    all, as insignificant as dust. The answer is what defines the nature of
    God. If that remains forever obsurd to you, you are in good company, since
    most people don't believe we could ever be anything more than that to any
    supreme being. Why would he care? I really don't know other than to say
    that it is in his character to care. Can I explain that? Absolutely not.
    Does that make me a kook? Perhaps. In your eyes? Surely. :)
    I can live with that. Just remember, William, that there are thinking,
    logical people who...sane though they are...can still leave a bit of room
    for something which flies in face of logic, human nature, and an otherwise
    rock-solid belief in the power and value of science. I'm an example of that
    irony. I'm not an idiot. I'm a person who has left a door open to the
    absurd concept that they may actually be a deity who gives a crap.
     
    Mark², Jan 2, 2007
  19. If there is a God...the most amazing aspect would indeed be just that, as
    All of which goes straight to the crux of my atheism....If there is a God,
    and he has nothing to do with the affairs of men, then what would it matter
    whether I believe in him or not? - IOW, the Christian god at least has some
    use for the Christians. They believe he is still hovering around doing them
    some good from time to time. In my case, I don't believe that......I believe
    that any creator of the whole universe would/should have no time for that,
    so of what good would it do for me to believe he exists at all? - Absolutely
    none, that's what.....And that's another reason why I don't believe....What
    would be the use? Why waste my time?
    It's sort of like believing that life didn't start here on this earth,
    but came from somewhere else, either on a spaceship or a meteor......Who
    cares? - What's the difference where it first developed? It doesn't matter
    in the least, so why not believe it started here, where it has obviously
    flourished? And, we can amuse ourselves trying to recreate it in
    environmental chambers in our laboratories.
     
    William Graham, Jan 2, 2007
  20. Alan Browne

    j ` f Guest

    "It is", "Hi is", and "Their is"?
     
    j ` f, Jan 2, 2007
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