MailServer econ101

Discussion in 'Linux Networking' started by Avoid9Pdf, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. Avoid9Pdf

    Avoid9Pdf Guest

    Many apparent technical problems have socio-economic explanations.

    The US telephone monopolist AT&T was broken up decades ago.
    The SouthAfrican Telkom monopoly was broken in this decade by
    Neotel -- said to be financed by Indian capital/money.

    With its fixed-wireless technology, mostly for speech, Neotel took a lead
    in laying the fiber-optic network. Given the relatively unsophisticated
    customer base, most Neotel end-users didn't use their internet facilities.
    [Africans are BIG talkers and small readers].

    As would be expected, the default email interface, supplied by Neotel is
    Micro$loth web-based and wastes much time and connection costs; which is
    what Neotel would want. With some effort, linux users could access Neotel's
    mail-server directly - and much faster. Now after a year, their mail server
    is out-of-order, giving <wrong password errors>. And live enquiries to their
    <help desk> is futile.

    Is this perhaps the explanation?
    With the increased crime & general degeneration causing white-flight from
    S. Africa, there's a shortage of people who can run a mailserver.
    And it's more profitable for Neotel to have their clients use eg. gmail
    and thus use 10 times the online time and data costs.

    Have you analysed the absurd dialog for http-based gmail ?!
    Are gmail servers located in the local/small countries for faster access?

    Avoid9Pdf, Nov 11, 2012
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  2. Avoid9Pdf

    Steve Baker Guest

    I say that you're the same fuckwit who didn't know how to do Telnet
    with an SMTP server, and then thought that being able to do it was
    irrelevant. The same fuckwit who complained that his new ISP didn't
    support email, but never gave a thought to finding an ISP that did
    support email. But, c'mon, an ISP that doesn't support email? Hey,
    maybe you're right, maybe your ISP is running up the charges by
    forcing you to do email via the web. You have no other options? There
    must be a more appropriate group to complain about ISP monopoly.
    Steve Baker, Nov 11, 2012
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  3. Avoid9Pdf

    Avoid9Pdf Guest

    Perhaps you meant "do a SMTP server with telnet".
    IIRC my querys to these forums have shown several logs of
    my telnet-to-smtp, and no one suggested any improvements.
    Again, the substance abuse is racing you brain to simplistic conclusions:
    1. the enterprise is a TelCo, and the email is, understandably just a
    2. In the context of my previous posts, the ISP aspect and specifically
    the email-serving was relevant.
    I joined Neotel to have a phone without needing a fixed line.
    The email, was just an extra benefit.
    But you've just acknowledged "finding an ISP that did
    support email": implying that there are ISPs who don't.

    What are you smoking there, boy?
    Good, you understood the mechanism.
    No it's not ISPs that have a monopoly, it's Micro$loth
    What better group would you suggest handles subtle email problems?

    Although you've snipped my contents, I'm not complaining.
    I'm looking for suble feedback. Eg. it took me a while [decades ago]
    to realise that:
    * the great variation in modem speed has socio-economic causes
    like road traffic density;

    BTW there's an analogy that may be too subtle for you:
    re. 'just get yourself another ISP' [I've already got 2]:
    there's a certain reliable-implying continuity with an address.
    A good reason NOT to dabble, and start smoking, is that it's
    difficult to stop later.
    Avoid9Pdf, Nov 11, 2012
  4. Avoid9Pdf

    J.O. Aho Guest

    The improvement is a mail client of some kind, telnet is used to see the
    output (or lack of) from the mail server, this can help you to figure out if
    the issue is in your client or in the mail server itself.

    MailChannels checked 400000 domains and their mail server software and
    microsoft has kind of around 7.6% of the market share on mail server software,
    still sendmail is the most popular with a market share over 12%.

    If your ISP likes to use microsoft products for their infrastructure, then you
    have a few options:

    - Live with it
    - Change ISP
    - Get mail service from someone else

    If you are connecting to a microsoft based mail server, then maybe an
    usergroup which handles microsofts server products, or/and else the client
    softwares support forum.
    J.O. Aho, Nov 11, 2012
  5. Avoid9Pdf

    Joe Zeff Guest

    If you want address continuity, the best way to get it is to have your
    own domain. However, you have two ISPs and (judging by what you post)
    you have the same problem with both. Sounds to me like the problem here
    is the one thing both ISPs are known to have in common: you.

    Joe Zeff, Nov 11, 2012
  6. Another morph by world-famous (infamous!) net-kook Chris Glur.
    (see the _decade-plus_ [1990s] of pseudo-rational ravings in the legal
    newsgroups, about how he lost title to his house over disputed utility

    The fool appears to be congenitally unable to comprehend anything that
    runs counter to his biases and preconceptions.

    Once he think he 'knows' something, it is impossible to educate him
    to the truth of matters.

    Best to killfile him and move on.
    Robert Bonomi, Nov 12, 2012
  7. Avoid9Pdf

    Steve Baker Guest

    That's BS. I suggested several things regarding one telnet session,
    and pointed out that you were doing authentication wrong in another.
    You said it didn't matter, that doing things properly would make no
    difference because you already knew what the problem was.

    Message-ID: <k4rqvc$ogg$>

    I said:

    You said:
    The accumulation of logs of "try/S" is already too much.
    Their server seems set up as a tar-trap.
    It doesn't announce that it won't forward the mails.
    So refining/tuning the TxAuthentication to correct syntax
    is just a waste of resources. Which is the intention of
    their tar-trap.
    Steve Baker, Nov 13, 2012
  8. Avoid9Pdf

    Avoid9Pdf Guest

    Thank you for your attention to this problem.
    It's important to me to know what my mistakes are in
    telnet-testing my smtp-server/s.

    ====> Here's the extract from my original post:-------------
    Here's a telnet trace to ISP1, via the fixedRadioModen of ISP2:----
    spawn telnet 25
    Connected to
    Escape character is '^]'.
    220 ESMTP
    501 #5.0.0 EHLO requires domain address
    334 ********
    334 ***********************
    235 #2.0.0 OK Authenticated <-----*!
    503 #5.5.1 MAIL first
    MAIL FROM:<crgl***>
    250 sender <crgl***> ok
    RCPT TO:<eas***>
    250 recipient <eas***> ok
    354 go ahead
    Date: Sept 3012
    Subject: tst2 expect Ac2Ae2

    Line after space-line separator
    250 ok: Message 910133084 accepted <---- *!
    Connection closed by foreign host.

    ---------------- end of telnet session trace:-----------
    ====> Here's your reply:-------------
    They might want to see a few more header lines, like maybe a From:
    and a To:. Also, that Date: line is malformed.
    --- end of your comment on THAT particular telnet session----

    Please correct any of the following:-
    * According to the relevant RFC the client needs to pass a
    number of steps as per the server's RFC requirements.
    * At each step, the feedback from the server confirms or NOT
    that the client has passed the most recent step.
    * If the client fails step N it is irrelevant and inappropriate to
    consider the steps after N.
    As my logs indicate, the preplanned steps may be auto-executed
    eg. by `expect; so that continuation of the 'dialog' after the server has
    indicated a failure, does NOT mean that the HUMAN does not understand
    the failure. It means the full sequence of steps were PREplanned,
    and that the point-of-failure can be determined from the log
    AFTER the session.
    * The <DATA> stage comes after the <TxAuthorisation> stage,
    so that testing the <TxAuthorisation> stage, will not be
    affected by elements of the <DATA> stage like the <Date field>?

    Is the <date field> specified in the RFC?
    Since you KNOW the RFC, [I've already got 4 texts open for this
    post, and I don't want to just guess] please remind me why I
    needed to have a repeat of the "From: and a To:", when this info
    is already contained in the COMPULSORY inputs:
    MAIL FROM:<crgl***>
    RCPT TO:<eas***>

    Does the smtp-server check the date format AFTER it has already given
    "250 ok: Message 910133084 accepted". ??
    Ie. what RFC specifies that <wrong format Date-field emails>
    are not to be forwarded.
    Of course the software can be programmed to REJECT on any detectable
    Here's some related info, for readers who don't know how the 3rd-world
    operates, and explains why sometimes there's no TECHNICAL solution to
    socio-economic problems, and why the witch-doctor is needed when the
    engineer fails. ----------------

    Subject: Servers BECAME defective after clients received spam warnings?

    From the initial 'welcome SMS' dated 2010-08-11, I see that
    I have been a Neotel client for 27 months now.

    Fortunately, I chose not to sign a contract, and fortunately
    I have an alternative email facility, and I am moving my traffic
    increasingly to your competitors.

    When your email service failed several months ago, I accepted it as just
    part of the general South African chaos, where it is well documented that
    they can't even get municipal accounts correct, although that was
    no problem 50 years ago.

    We know that accidents happen, and one doesn't want to put unnecessary
    pressure on the 'fire fighters' and hamper the general recovery. But
    yesterday I decided that since the email service had been out of order
    for months, you would have had sufficient time to fix it. So I again
    phoned the <help line>.

    The difficult to understand 'assistant' confirmed that there was a
    problem on YOUR system, leading to the <wrong password error>,
    and absurdly suggested that I FURTHER hang-on-the-line, while he
    consult with his superior.

    Suggesting that I rather phone back in an hour and ask for <his name>:
    I later got a different "assistant". Who again just repeatedly
    ask me to wait.

    There is no justification to be asked to wait.
    The client does not NEED any answer, and Neotel does not need further info.
    The client's error description can be logged in 30 seconds;
    after that, technically competent persons can diagnose and fix the error/s.

    What kind of a circus are you operating at SA: Neotel ?!

    After further though on this matter, and particularly why the
    "assistants" want to establish a personal relationship with the
    client/victim, I realised how ignorant we Westerners are,
    without training in how-to-use-bribery-opportunities.

    Of course the Neotel-computerised-telephone advanced-payment
    works perfectly, and as automatic as an ATM, without any person to
    ask your name, and create irrelevant patter, to give them an
    opportunity to mention you name six times, to create a
    "personal relationship", and let you wait for 30 minutes
    of background music, to realise that you should put-your
    hand-in-your-pocket-to-solve-the problem.

    Someone asked me: "but HOW would he receive his bribe?"
    Lacking experience in these subtlety's, I just remember that
    once I needed info from the 1000 miles distant Cape Town magistrate
    Court. Instead of faxing me the 2 pages, the "assistant" wanted to
    fax all 50 [using the government costs] and have me pay into his
    bank account for the service.
    Avoid9Pdf, Nov 15, 2012
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