Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Chris Loffredo, Sep 20, 2006.

  1. Chris Loffredo

    jeremy Guest

    I blame the manufacturers. They pushed automation as a step up from the
    excellent manual cameras that proliferated in the 70s. I still recall the
    advertising campaign that Honeyell did to push Pentax ES cameras--"they let
    you spend more time on composition than on exposure."

    Although automation did serve to increase the percentage of shots that had
    technically-correct exposures, it also became a crutch. Over time it became
    almost expected that high end cameras would all have automation. The Nikon
    FM3a was the last of the great manual cameras, and it did not survive the
    wholesale model withdrawal that was announced by Nikon. Even when it was a
    current model its sales figures were very low.

    Same for lenses. Few manual-focus 35mm lenses remain. Everybody wants
    autofocus. And prime lenses have long ago taken a back seat to zooms.
    Everything for the photographer's convenience. And many of the images
    reflect that.
    jeremy, Sep 25, 2006
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  2. Chris Loffredo

    Scott W Guest

    Sure, if you want a camera that just sits there and does nothing then a
    Leica would work well at that.

    Scott W, Sep 25, 2006
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  3. Chris Loffredo

    jeremy Guest

    I am not knocking Leica. If you want one, and don't mind committing the
    funds, go and buy one.

    It is that phony superior attitude that many Leicaphiles exhibit that turns
    me off. So, okay, they have cameras that can withstand punishment. But
    please show me how superior the images are, because virtually nobody can
    tell which ones were taken by Leica, when they are compared with those of
    other major brands.

    The worst aspect of this is that people tend to focus unnecessarily on the
    equipment and not enough on the images that they create.
    jeremy, Sep 25, 2006
  4. Chris Loffredo

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Do you also expect users of Montblanc fountain pens to show you that
    the letters they write are superior to those of users of other brands
    of pens? Do you expect anybody to be able tell after the fact what
    kind of pen something was written with? Maybe the users of those pens
    buy them because they enjoy owning them and using them.

    Most of the Leica users I know have been pretty free of phony
    superiority, now that I think of it. Could the resentment you're
    showing towards them be a sign of an inferiority complex on your part?
    Paul Rubin, Sep 25, 2006
  5. It's arrogant to denigrate folks' buying decisions based solely on your
    narrow p.o.v.
    The last paragraph would seem to apply as much, or more, to you than

    john mcwilliams

    Two vultures board an airplane, each carrying two dead raccoons. The
    flight attendant looks at them and says, "I'm sorry, gentlemen, only one
    carrion allowed per passenger."
    John McWilliams, Sep 25, 2006
  6. Chris Loffredo

    jeremy Guest

    Now you're a psychologist, too?

    Owners of Mont Blanc pens don't go around posting messages on newsgroups
    extolling the superiority of their pens. Not so with Leicaphiles. Some of
    them are downright arrogant about putting down anyone that has selected
    another course to follow.

    Just as did you, when you suggested that I might be suffering from emotional
    instability and resentment, merely because I dared to question the myth of
    Leica superiority.
    jeremy, Sep 25, 2006
  7. Chris Loffredo

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Well, they don't post to photo newsgroups. I don't know if there's a
    pen newsgroup. Typing "Montblanc forum" into Google got numerous hits.
    Here's a discussion board where they post about fancy pens:


    With some pictures someone took of pens they acquired at the "DC pen
    show" (wow):


    "The pens are a Conway Stewart Silver Duro Marble Blue, a Conway
    Stewart Ivory Casein and a Mont Blanc Jules Verne Limited Edition (the
    pictures do not do justice to the color or the depth) and a group
    shot. Each of the pens has a Fine nib. The DC show was fantastic and I
    highly recommend it."

    Sounds like extolling to me.
    Nah, the resentment shows in the way you're hung up about this
    supposed myth, when Leica owners themselves are generally not that
    hung up about it.
    Paul Rubin, Sep 25, 2006
  8. Chris Loffredo

    Bill Funk Guest

    "Maybe they know something you don't."

    They don't know anything different, they feel something different.
    Bill Funk, Sep 25, 2006
  9. Chris Loffredo

    Bill Funk Guest

    It's pretty hard to espress the grandeur of a sunset with a sheet of
    white paper and a piece of black charcoal.
    It's obvious the artist must have the right tools to express his

    So, what should a poor artist do?
    Bill Funk, Sep 25, 2006
  10. Chris Loffredo

    Scott W Guest

    Look at how you can get the most bang for you buck.
    IMO the D8 is lacking on bang and other cameras that cost less
    will do better.

    Scott W, Sep 25, 2006
  11. Chris Loffredo

    Bill Funk Guest

    Yes, I like autofocus. It focuses as I want it to, so why not?
    All-manual is a drag on what I want to do. I can do what I want to do
    faster and easier when the camera takes over the mundane chores, such
    as metering the light. With experience, I can tell what the camera
    will do on its own, when, for example, I have my camera in Aperture
    Preferred mode. Why should I then take over adjusting the shutter
    speed to what I would have made it, when it will do it for me?
    Of course zooms have (almost) taken over from primes; why not? Zooms
    offer many more focal lengths than a prime without changing lenses,
    and are, for practical purposes, as good as a prime. And, I can still
    zoom with my feet if that's what's needed.
    And yet, if the photographer wants all-manual, that option remains.

    So why don't camera makers offer all-manual DSLRs, for example?
    I'd bet dollars to donuts it's because the market isn't there.
    Bill Funk, Sep 25, 2006
  12. Chris Loffredo

    jeremy Guest

    You're right. There is insufficient demand for manual cameras. Now that
    35mm has been supplanted by digital, it has pretty much become an
    all-amateur format. Newspapers got rid of their chemical darkrooms years
    ago. Perhaps some of the weekly or monthly magazines still have
    photographers shooting chromes, but photojournalists, news photographers and
    others have gotten out of the format.

    I suspect that you learned on a manual camera, so you know how to achieve
    what you want. But others have commented for well over a decade that
    automation has been responsible for people not bothering to learn how to
    take good images. This was not any original idea of mine.

    I have a couple of P&S cameras with autofocus and I can't stand the fact
    that it is impossible for me to shoot using shallow DOF. The cameras'
    automation selects shutter speed and aperture. The photographer has little
    control over the final result.

    Sorry, it's just not my cup of tea.
    jeremy, Sep 25, 2006
  13. Chris Loffredo

    jeremy Guest

    One thing to do is to stop fretting over the fact that he doesn't own a
    Leica, and cannot possible take good photos without one, despite what some
    Leicaphiles say.

    That's all I'm suggesting. Leica is an expensive tool, but it remains just
    a tool--and its results often depend upon the skill of the person using it.
    All that other hype is just that--hype.
    jeremy, Sep 25, 2006
  14. Chris Loffredo

    nathantw Guest

    If you get past the pops and clicks LP's DO sound better than their
    digital counterparts. They sound warmer and "smoother" than CD's. I
    didn't believe it until I threw a record onto my turntable after it sat
    idle for years. It just sounded very pleasant to my ears...except for
    the pops and clicks.
    nathantw, Sep 25, 2006
  15. Chris Loffredo

    nathantw Guest

    I remember I almost bought this photo for $8k
    http://www.gallerym.com/work.cfm?ID=66 mainly because I loved it. It
    wasn't because it was taken with a Leica (which it was).

    So, in my case, I would have been happy to pay money for something that
    would have hung on the wall...I just needed the money.
    nathantw, Sep 25, 2006
  16. Chris Loffredo

    nathantw Guest

    Here's a better photo of the one taken by Alfred Eisenstaedt.
    nathantw, Sep 25, 2006
  17. Chris Loffredo

    nathantw Guest

    nathantw, Sep 25, 2006
  18. Chris Loffredo

    nathantw Guest

  19. Chris Loffredo

    nathantw Guest

    Here's a better photo of the one taken by Alfred Eisenstaedt.
    nathantw, Sep 25, 2006
  20. Chris Loffredo

    ASAAR Guest

    Leicas really are superior. There are many aspects to consider
    though, and Leicas don't excel in all areas, just some. They
    weren't designed, for instance, to be excellent or even moderately
    decent sports cameras. But for certain types of photojournalism and
    street photography they're hard to beat. If I had the disposable
    cash to buy a Leica kit I certainly wouldn't. But if I had
    sufficient money, and a collector's compulsion, such as Leno's with
    autos, I'd probably have owned several by now, along with several
    Canon and (my preference) old Nikon rangefinders. Leicas also stand
    as a reminder of different, older values, where excellence in design
    and fine craftsmanship have value even if the best modern digital
    cameras are now capable of producing slightly superior images. If
    and when I upgrade my P&S to a DSLR, I'll do everything possible to
    avoid getting one of the cheaper plastic lenses such as Nikon and
    Canon produce, no matter how well they perform. This is probably
    due to my previous experience handling older but very well built
    Nikon lenses for their SLRs. It may not be an entirely rational
    reason, but if I had to use a camera/lens that constantly reminded
    me of cost cutting and construction shoddiness by the way it felt in
    my hands, I'd probably start wondering whether I should be using
    something else, such as a much better, more expensive lens, or
    perhaps one of the many Leica models that never skimped on quality.
    I do appreciate your inclination to question myths, though. We'd be
    better off if more people also did. <g>
    ASAAR, Sep 25, 2006
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