Just what is a photograph

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Pat, Nov 25, 2008.

  1. Pat

    Roy G Guest

    Of course the comments from "Judges" are subjective.

    They have to be, because Judges are human, just human.

    I always begin my comments with the caveat that no one has to agree with my
    opinions.

    They are perfectly entitled to think that I am utterly wrong, all that I ask
    is that they should think about what I have said before deciding if I am
    wrong.

    Do remember that judges also enter competitions, and have to listen to other
    visually challenged people discussing their work.

    Roy G
     
    Roy G, Nov 30, 2008
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  2. Pat

    Vance Guest

    Mianileng's analysis is basically correct, but I thought I would take
    it a little further in an edit. Better blending is, IMO, more than
    just getting the shadows and color compatible with the image.

    Most of the 'floating' effect comes from your figure. In part, it's
    because in the size posted, it has lost detail and has become an
    abstraction. I did a gross color adjustment, toned down the right
    side of the arm and deepened the shadows. I also deemphasized the
    figure with a reduction in saturation.

    Similarly with your wifes figure, though to a lesser extent and
    without the desaturation. In both figures I deepend the ground
    shadows. The crop and background focus also has a lot to do with the
    floating effect.

    It's a crude edit, but I blurred the background slightly using a
    gradient blurring and cropped so that the eyes more naturally
    concentrate on the figures. This tends to move everything to the
    foreground and the sharpness and lighting of the figures seems more
    appropriate. By encouraging the eyes to look at the figures, there is
    less comparison with the background so there is less perception of
    floating. It has to do with how the brain processes visual
    information.

    This isn't intended to be a great edit, but to illustrate some of the
    factors that go into a composite picture. I hope you don't mind my
    taking the liberty.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-FNzJMQ0UJ10KGZH5E7t7A?authkey=QEiesrbfaH4

    Vance
     
    Vance, Nov 30, 2008
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  3. Pat

    Mark Thomas Guest

    Well, *I'd* like to thank Mianileng and Vance for those most interesting
    edits and comments, and to Mar-celsius for offering it up - I find it
    interesting to hear techniques and observations regarding this type of
    image. I find that I am *very* good at spotting a composite, but lousy
    at doing them! It can take quite a while to actually go through all the
    things that can make for a mismatch, even though one's eye immediately
    shouts "that's WRONG!".

    While the perspective, lighting and shadows are important, there are
    many other aspects - the saturation and color issues pointed out by
    Vance are surprisingly important in this image. Some of it can be very
    subtle - like matching what might be almost imperceptible noise and
    sharpness differences and things like the slight color cast on the right
    of the guy's shirt, which doesn't gel with the indirect light that would
    be coming from that direction.. and so on..

    That version is better but there is still a way to go, so like any great
    work of art - it is *never* finished, merely abandoned. (O:
     
    Mark Thomas, Nov 30, 2008
  4. Pat

    Pat Guest

    You're a hack. I did a photo just like that YEARS ago. Except mine
    was of a kid holding a blue balloon. And I cut out the background
    completely. Otherwise, they're exactly the same. What a rip-off.
     
    Pat, Nov 30, 2008
  5. Pat

    Pat Guest

    There is nothing inherently wrong with a P&S. In fact, often they are
    the perfect camera. But the same thing can be said for a dSLR.
    However, your need to defend them to the extent that you did seems a
    bit over the top.
     
    Pat, Nov 30, 2008
  6. Pat

    Mark Thomas Guest

    Yes, this seems to be a habit with Mr Cooper - I've just checked my
    collection, and I found *this*:

    http://www.marktphoto.com/examples/desat_boat.jpg

    !!!! No doubt, his defence will be along the lines of it being a
    rowboat rather than a ferry.. How lame!

    Enough said, and I can see a class action looming. Who else is with us??
     
    Mark Thomas, Nov 30, 2008
  7. Pat

    Mark Thomas Guest

    (O:

    Possibly the funniest (saddest?) whooooosh from Vern/Keoeeit to date.
     
    Mark Thomas, Nov 30, 2008
  8. Pat

    Roy G Guest

    Your list is not a list of "Proofs" it is a list of your Opinions and
    Theories.

    You have been shoving this diatribe into everyone's face so much that it
    just gets ignored.

    The only person showing psychotic tendencies is you, with your over
    repetition of, (what you alone consider to be), self evident truths.

    Roy G
     
    Roy G, Nov 30, 2008
  9. Pat

    Celcius Guest

    Mianileng's analysis is basically correct, but I thought I would take
    it a little further in an edit. Better blending is, IMO, more than
    just getting the shadows and color compatible with the image.

    Most of the 'floating' effect comes from your figure. In part, it's
    because in the size posted, it has lost detail and has become an
    abstraction. I did a gross color adjustment, toned down the right
    side of the arm and deepened the shadows. I also deemphasized the
    figure with a reduction in saturation.

    Similarly with your wifes figure, though to a lesser extent and
    without the desaturation. In both figures I deepend the ground
    shadows. The crop and background focus also has a lot to do with the
    floating effect.

    It's a crude edit, but I blurred the background slightly using a
    gradient blurring and cropped so that the eyes more naturally
    concentrate on the figures. This tends to move everything to the
    foreground and the sharpness and lighting of the figures seems more
    appropriate. By encouraging the eyes to look at the figures, there is
    less comparison with the background so there is less perception of
    floating. It has to do with how the brain processes visual
    information.

    This isn't intended to be a great edit, but to illustrate some of the
    factors that go into a composite picture. I hope you don't mind my
    taking the liberty.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-FNzJMQ0UJ10KGZH5E7t7A?authkey=QEiesrbfaH4

    Thank you, Vance.
    I took down your advice as Mianileng.s analysis and will work on it further.
    Luckily, I saved this image in PSD and can come back to it in the different
    layers.
    Marcel
     
    Celcius, Nov 30, 2008
  10. You can't balance 1,000 pages of information from 100 people with one
    page from one person repeated 1,000 times. That's not how this
    universe works. The idea that it does is known as the Troll Fallacy.
     
    Chris Malcolm, Nov 30, 2008
  11. Pat

    Peter Guest



    OK. flip it horizontally and crop a smidgen off the bottom.
     
    Peter, Nov 30, 2008
  12. Pat

    Peter Guest


    Thank you, I was hoping I did not bore too many people, but credit also
    should go to Tony for his contributions.

    About twenty five years ago I found myself making pictures and pandering to
    the judges. At that point I stopped competing. About three years ago I
    rejoined my old camera club, but with a totally different attitude. My main
    reasons to even submit are that it keeps me producing images and I really
    appreciate constructive comments. My scores are irrelevant.
     
    Peter, Dec 1, 2008
  13. Pat

    Peter Guest


    No problem. I sometimes get anal about being misquoted.
     
    Peter, Dec 1, 2008
  14. Nothing worse than trying to please people with the same tired old ideas,
    especially in the world of art. I've been known to walk out of professor's
    classrooms because I didn't want anyone to ever know that I mistakenly signed up
    for their course. It would have been a huge embarrassment in the future had
    anyone assumed that I took their lame advice and ideas as my own.


    "Innovators and creative geniuses cannot be reared in schools. They are
    precisely the men who defy what the school has taught them." - Ludwig von
    Mises

    "What does education often do? It makes a straight-cut ditch of a free,
    meandering brook." - Henry David Thoreau

    "My barn having burned to the ground I can now see the moon." - Japanese Haiku

    "Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the
    shore." - Andre' Gide

    And most important ...

    "After all, it is the mediocre who are always at their best." - Jean Giraudoux


    If you let someone else define your creativity ... all is lost.
     
    Geoffe Purdue, Dec 1, 2008
  15. Pat

    Surfer! Guest

    In message <ggpmgg$tip$>, mianileng
    And that's exactly the point. If you look at a print of this image (or
    a version on the Web) you will have no idea how it was produced and you
    might think it fits your definition of what a photograph is. So, to me
    the definition is meaningless as it's one that in this any many other
    cases can cannot be determined by inspection of the final image.
    Since the facts behind the image (product) product cannot be reliably
    determined by inspection of the final image (product) they are
    meaningless to me.
     
    Surfer!, Dec 1, 2008
  16. Pat

    mianileng Guest

    Different strokes........
    If you unknowingly buy a counterfeit memory card and it works
    just as well as a genuine one, it may not matter to you. But that
    does not change the fact that it is a counterfeit.

    If I admired an unaltered photo of yours, I'd admire your skill
    at taking photos. If I admired a composite and extensively
    manipulated photo, knowing that it was manipulated, I'd admire
    your skill at creating the finished picture. But my admiration in
    the two cases would be for different reasons. If I didn't know
    the second picture was manipulated, that does not alter the fact
    that it was manipulated and I'd be admiring it for the wrong
    reason.
     
    mianileng, Dec 1, 2008
  17. Pat

    Celcius Guest

    Very well put!
    Marcel
     
    Celcius, Dec 1, 2008
  18. Pat

    J. Clarke Guest

    If all you're admiring it for is the technique then the artist has
    failed.
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 1, 2008
  19. Pat

    Surfer! Guest

    In message <gh0l6n$2me$>, mianileng
    In my view the only reason to admire an image is because it appeals.
    Not because of the skill of the photographer, though usually that is
    part of why it appeals. All this nit-picking about is it a photo or is
    it something else seems to be to be getting in the way of genuine
    enjoyment of photography, photographs and art.
     
    Surfer!, Dec 1, 2008
  20. Pat

    Celcius Guest

    Of course not, John.
    At first glance, what strikes one's eye is an overall appreciation. Then one
    may start analysing...
    Marcel
     
    Celcius, Dec 1, 2008
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