Is there any camera on earth meeting 4 simple requirements (AA,CF,7x)

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Susan (Graphic Artist), Jun 10, 2005.

  1. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Ken Weitzel Guest

    Big Bill wrote:

    Hi...

    I have thought it through, and agree that I do indeed want
    AA's whenever possible...

    Example. Few years ago visiting South Dakota... darned
    memory... the former US presidents carved into a mountain.

    Standing close to some folks who had a really really heavy
    English accent. We said hello to one another; and they asked
    if I knew of a close place out of the "tourist trap" where
    they could get some AA alkalines, because there batteries were
    close to gone. I didn't - not local, not even American.

    But I did loan them my fully charged spare set; we walked
    back to the parking lot and put theirs on charge in our car,
    and went back to have lunch which would of course give them
    at least an hour or two's charging.

    They wouldn't take no to paying for lunch; so - given that
    our trip was almost over, we didn't take no to them keeping
    our spare set of NiMh's.

    Everything's so much easier when everyone helps one another,
    but could we have done that if it weren't for the compatability
    of AA's?

    Ken
     
    Ken Weitzel, Jun 10, 2005
    #61
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  2. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Big Bill Guest

    Google is your friend!
    Here's one for under $25 for the 5700:
    http://www.ebatts.com/nikon_coolpix...3&src=Froogle&GTKW=Nikon CoolPix 5700 Battery

    For the 805U:
    http://www.ebatts.com/jvc_gr-dvl805u_camcorder_batteries_part_b-9556.aspx
     
    Big Bill, Jun 10, 2005
    #62
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  3. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Walter Banks Guest

    The Li-ion packs are about twice the price of long life AA's. A small difference when the price of the camera itself is factored in. The both of the digital cameras I regularly use have Li-ion packs and a spare pack will set you back less than $30. The
    battery life on current camera's is impressive. My Kodak DX7590 battery life is > 300 pictures in normal use. I have two batteries.

    w..
     
    Walter Banks, Jun 10, 2005
    #63
  4. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Old Bugger Guest

    Fuji s602z with a teleconverter.
     
    Old Bugger, Jun 10, 2005
    #64
  5. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    ASAAR Guest

    It sounds like you're setting up a comparison with a low-priced
    Li-ion battery with the highest priced NiMH batteries that can
    possibly be found. My camera uses 4 AA batteries, and the high
    capacity, high quality NiMH cells I'm using are readily available
    for $8.00. They also last far long than 300 pictures per charge.

    Another point in favor of NiMH cells that makes them a better buy
    is that Li-ion batteries have a shorter life. There's a slow
    chemical cannibalization taking place in them such that even if
    they're used lightly, you'll probably have to replace them within 3
    years. If they get heavy use, they may be good for only 200 or 300
    charge cycles, sometimes causing failure within a single year, as
    iPod owners have discovered. NiMH cells on the other hand, if
    properly cared for can last many more years and many more charge
    cycles - 500, 1000, possibly more. So double my investment to
    $16.00 (for a spare set), and by the time they need to be replaced,
    some other camera owners will have gone through $100 to $300 worth
    of Li-ion batteries. When the camera in question costs over $1,000
    that's not unreasonable. But for cameras costing far less, having
    the battery cost approach or exceed 1/2 the cost of the camera
    indicates that some more practical decisions could have been made.
     
    ASAAR, Jun 10, 2005
    #65
  6. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Paul Rubin Guest

    The price of li ion packs is infinite if you can't buy one when you
    want it (i.e. when the one in your camera goes flat and you don't have
    a charger). AA's have the advantage that you can buy them for a
    finite price in a lot more places than you can buy proprietary li ion
    packs for a particular camera.
     
    Paul Rubin, Jun 11, 2005
    #66
  7. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    The Real Bev Guest

    CU is OK for mainstream consumer goods (what do you REALLY expect from a
    toaster?), but anything involving enthusiast-level or above is beyond their
    reach. I get really tired of hearing about possible shock hazards, too. "If
    you straighten out a coat hanger and stick it into this hole right here you
    will probably receive a lethal shock."

    I used to read the car evaluations in the annual book, but then I realized
    that "electrical problems" can mean either a fuse replacement or your entire
    wiring harness catching fire.

    --
    Cheers,
    Bev
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Of course "õŽl has four seasons:
    Earthquake, Mudslide, Brushfire, and Riot
     
    The Real Bev, Jun 11, 2005
    #67
  8. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    The Real Bev Guest

    My husband made a battery pack for his walkman out of a double D-size battery
    holder from radio shack, some wire and a plug. D batteries are way cheaper to
    use than AAs.

    --
    Cheers,
    Bev
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Of course SoCal has four seasons:
    Earthquake, Mudslide, Brushfire, and Riot
     
    The Real Bev, Jun 11, 2005
    #68
  9. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    The Real Bev Guest

    "Decent" zoom is 3x optical, which is common and decent. My Coolpix 800 which
    I bought at Thanksgiving 2000 fits your other criteria, so you want
    exceptional zoom. You forgot to mention write speed, which I would consider
    more important than the zoom. If you get a huge number of megapixels you can
    just crop out the middle and there you are.

    I'd like the 800 to be faster and I'd especially like it if they'd spent the
    extra dime to put a second eyelet on it so I could wear it around my neck like
    normal people do. Carrying a camera on your wrist is an open invitation to
    smash it against something hard just by unthinkingly turning around quickly.

    No, hanging it around my neck using the single eyelet is NOT the same.

    --
    Cheers,
    Bev
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Of course SoCal has four seasons:
    Earthquake, Mudslide, Brushfire, and Riot
     
    The Real Bev, Jun 11, 2005
    #69
  10. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    The Real Bev Guest

    You can use an ordinary CF card in a microdrive hole, but you can't stuff a
    microdrive into an ordinary CF hole.

    --
    Cheers,
    Bev
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Of course SoCal has four seasons:
    Earthquake, Mudslide, Brushfire, and Riot
     
    The Real Bev, Jun 11, 2005
    #70
  11. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Mike Henley Guest

    Agreed.

    AAs are delightful. They're so cheap and they come in trustworthy
    brands like uniross, unlike those no-name third-party
    proprietary-replacement ones on ebay. I increasingly worry that such
    batteries may explode, like those in mobile phones, or leak and damage
    the camera. The originals from the camera's brand are usually rip-off
    expensive for what they are.
     
    Mike Henley, Jun 11, 2005
    #71
  12. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    MarkH Guest

    He said $30 for the LiIon, I paid $12 for the last ones I bought.
    I accept and agree with some of what you say. AA batteries are indeed
    cheap and easy to come by. Prior to buying my current D-SLR (Canon 10D)
    2 years ago, I definitely had a preference for AA batteries.

    However:
    Now I don't mind that my 10D uses Lithium Ion batteries. I recently
    bought 4 new batteries for $12 each, the price is certainly not
    something that bothers me (even if I replaced them every 2 or 3 years).
    My busiest day of shooting involved me taking 2580 shots over 6 hours,
    this was done with 2 batteries in the grip that had be freshly charged
    the night before and did not run out during those 2580 shots.

    For me to go through $300 worth of Li-Ion batteries I would have to buy
    25 of them, that would be a lot of years worth of shooting.

    Now I am happy with Li-Ion, as long as it is a popular battery and can
    be easily purchased from many vendors and with many brands available.
    Rare batteries only available from the original manufacturer that cost
    too much are a pain in the wallet.
     
    MarkH, Jun 11, 2005
    #72
  13. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Tony Hwang Guest

    Hi,
    What's wrong with carrying couple spare? Not expensive at all and they
    last quite OK. I made a trip to China over the Christmas and New years
    day holidays. Had dSLR(D70) with two spare batteres, had Oly C5060 with
    two spare batteries. Every night at hotel I made sure they're charged.
    never had trouble. Hope at least you use rechargeable AAs if you do.
    I can bet you 90% of all this and that batteris are made in China coming
    out with different brand name and labels.
    Go figure!
    Tony
     
    Tony Hwang, Jun 11, 2005
    #73
  14. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    ASAAR Guest

    If only that were a typical price for Li-ion batteries, but it's
    not. One reason prices for *most* people remains far higher is that
    most of them don't use cameras such as your 10D. They're forced to
    get whatever is available for their compact or subcompact camera.
    If they're lucky, it will use a fairly standard battery that's been
    used in many other models, and so *might* be available from a second
    source. When I bought my first Canon Powershot camera, it used
    proprietary batteries and I didn't see any readily available
    alternatives to what Canon provided for $50. Several years later
    (after Canon stopped using those batteries) I was able to get decent
    replacements for $20 each. I doubt that these batteries are now, or
    ever will ever be provided with new cameras, so eventually the
    sources for them will dry up. That probably won't be the fate of
    some of the batteries used in popular workhorses such as your 10D.

    It's interesting that you'd choose the $300 figure to make your
    case. I stated a probable expense range of $100 to $300, and based
    it on prices that *most* people currently are paying. Your
    situation is *far* from typical, as shown by your claim to have
    taken 2580 shots one day in a 6 hour period. There are many people
    that won't take that many pictures during the entire life of their
    camera. They're the ones that won't be paying such low prices as
    you do for batteries, nor would most of them be able to unless they
    were very fortunate in the choice of their camera. Your 10D is a
    far different camera than the more consumer oriented models such as
    a Stylus Verve, Exilim, Optio or Ixus. You could even pay more than
    $100 per battery without being troubled greatly, since you're
    cameras are heavily used for business purposes, and it would amount
    to an extremely small fraction of your expenses. As I said, battery
    costs would be a concern for others, not for you, because batteries
    aren't coming close to approaching 50% of your your photographic
    expenses.
     
    ASAAR, Jun 11, 2005
    #74
  15. To this you need to add
    which you mentioned later.

    In fact, those aren't so simple to meet. It's difficult to make a 7 or
    10X zoom lens that retains good image quality throughout its range.
    That's one reason why the cameras with large zoom ranges tend to have
    lower pixel counts (so the sharpness standards are somewhat less).

    In the SLR world (both film and digital), the usual tradeoff is to buy a
    really long range zoom (e.g. 28-200) and live with the lower image
    quality, or buy several shorter-range zooms that together cover the
    range, or even include a couple of fixed-focal-length lenses at
    particularly critical focal lengths. But you don't have this choice if
    the lens isn't removable.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Jun 11, 2005
    #75
  16. Consumer Reports is pretty good at evaluating things that you regard as
    a commodity, like appliances. If you want a reliable camera that washes
    your clothes, er, shoots photos on auto with resolution sufficient for
    4x6 prints and nothing more, CR is a good source of info.

    But if someone expects to use the camera in non-auto mode, or edit
    images in Photoshop, or make large prints, they are an enthusiast (at
    least to some extent) and CR's lowest-common-denominator reports leave
    out a lot of info they might care about. Newsgroups and review sites
    are much better.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Jun 11, 2005
    #76
  17. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    MarkH Guest

    Or maybe they don't shop around enough on the internet.
    Mostly true (except for the business purposes, I have not made a single
    dollar from photography ever).

    It seems to me that the problem is not with Li-Ion batteries, it is with
    proprietary batteries where the manufacturer is the only supplier and
    they charge an exorbitant price for the batteries. This is where AA
    batteries have the huge advantage.

    Unfortunately most camera buyers do not check on how much it costs for
    things like extra batteries, otherwise some manufacturers would lose
    sales on cameras with expensive batteries. If this happened then many
    manufacturers would have to rethink their battery types and/or prices.

    It may be worth checking with www.sterlingtek.com for battery
    availability.
    From Sterlingtek:
    Battery to replace Olympus Li-30B (for Stylus Verve) $16.99
    Battery to replace Canon NB-4L (for ixus cameras) $12.49
    Battery to replace Casio NP-20 (for Exilim cameras)$11.99
    Battery for Pentax Optio 330 $13.99
    Battery for Pentax Optio 430 $13.99
    Often these batteries are actually better than the original OEM ones for
    the capacity rating.

    It might be that Li-Ion batteries are not so bad if you shop around for
    a good source at a good price?
     
    MarkH, Jun 11, 2005
    #77
  18. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    Bob Ward Guest


    What is this "microdrive hole" you talk about?
    http://www.compactflash.org/info/cfinfo.htm
    CompactFlash® is a very small removable mass storage device. First
    introduced in 1994 by SanDisk Corporation, CF™ cards weigh a half
    ounce and are the size of a matchbook. They provide complete
    PCMCIA-ATA functionality and compatibility plus TrueIDE functionality
    compatible with ATA/ATAPI-4. At 43mm (1.7") x 36mm (1.4") x 3.3mm
    (0.13"), the device's thickness is less than one-half of a current
    PCMCIA Type II card. It is actually one-fourth the volume of a PCMCIA
    card. Compared to a 68-pin PCMCIA card, a CF card has 50 pins but
    still conforms to PCMCIA ATA specs. It can be easily slipped into a
    passive 68-pin Type II adapter card that fully meets PCMCIA electrical
    and mechanical interface specifications.

    CompactFlash cards are designed with flash technology, a non-volatile
    storage solution that does not require a battery to retain data
    indefinitely. CompactFlash storage products are solid state, meaning
    they contain no moving parts, and provide users with much greater
    protection of their data than conventional magnetic disk drives. They
    are five to ten times more rugged and reliable than disk drives
    including those found in PC Card Type III products. CF cards consume
    only five percent of the power required by small disk drives.

    CF cards are also available for data storage using the Microdrive. CF
    I/O cards are available as modems, Ethernet, serial, digital phone
    cards, laser scanners, BlueTooth wireless, 802.11b WiFi LAN, etc.
     
    Bob Ward, Jun 11, 2005
    #78
  19. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    The Real Bev Guest

    OK, how about "slot"? You know, the place in the camera that you put the CF
    card or microdrive.
    --
    Cheers,
    Bev
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Of course SoCal has four seasons:
    Earthquake, Mudslide, Brushfire, and Riot
     
    The Real Bev, Jun 11, 2005
    #79
  20. Susan (Graphic Artist)

    ASAAR Guest

    Most people aren't as internet savvy as you or even many of the
    regulars in this ng. They're too busy with other interests.

    I hope that statement isn't like the bar bet that relies on you
    eventually adding "I've not made a single dollar. I've made
    thousands of 'em" :) But if you didn't use your camera for
    commercial purposes, that must have been an expensive day
    considering that 2,580 shots, whether occurring over a period of 6
    hours or 6 months represents a not insignificant portion of a
    camera's expected shutter life. At that rate, many DSLRs wouldn't
    last more than a month or so. If nothing else, averaging a picture
    every 8 seconds, continuously for 6 hours is impressive. I guess it
    wasn't a typical day. :)


    Yes, but it's probably a bit worse than that. Not a lot worse,
    but consider the batteries you get for your 10D. You may only pay
    $12 for them now. But for the first year or two that that battery
    was used in cameras, would a $12 alternative have been available?
    Probably not. I don't want to assume that it was first used in the
    D10, but if it was, and assuming that most D10 owners would have
    bought at least two batteries during the first year or two that it
    was available, that probably would have amounted to an additional
    expense somewhere between $100 and $150, not the $24 that it is now,
    for you.

    Fool me once . . . Many will avoid being twice bitten. But too
    many buyers are probably seeing only the new camera and its
    possibilities, and don't consider such mundane items as batteries.

    That would make them more attractive, but still doesn't guarantee
    the solution of one problem presented by proprietary batteries. How
    far into the future will all of the batteries for the cameras listed
    above still be available? Five years? Ten? Fifteen? My guess is
    somewhere between 5 and 10. I'm sure that AA and AAA batteries
    will still be around at least 15 years from now. Probably more like
    50. No Li-ion battery bought today will be functional in ten years.
    I can't imagine any still surviving five years from now lasting for
    several hours per charge. Maybe a few minutes at the most. That's
    just a problem unique to Li-ion's chemistry.

    Old cameras might not be often used in the future, but some people
    would still appreciate being able to pick up the camera once used by
    their father or grandmother and still be able to use it, as could be
    done with old film cameras, heirloom watches, even some old black
    powder muskets.
     
    ASAAR, Jun 11, 2005
    #80
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