Is MCSE worth pursuing?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Steve Young, Oct 22, 2003.

  1. Steve Young

    Steve Young Guest

    I'm an expert on digital photography and roller coasters but I want to
    be cool and learn computers and shit.
    Steve Young, Oct 22, 2003
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  2. Steve Young

    Steve Young Guest

    don't bother he's an imposter troll
    Steve Young, Oct 22, 2003
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  3. Steve Young

    Paul Larson Guest

    (Steve Young) wrote in
    You are have way to your two goals!
    Paul Larson, Oct 22, 2003
  4. Steve Young

    turretjam Guest

    "but I want to be cool and learn computers and shit."

    He has three goals, being cool, learning computers and shitting.

    Shitting is easy: sit down, grab a newspaper and wait. I think your
    hopelessly lost on the other two.
    turretjam, Oct 22, 2003
  5. Steve Young

    Fuse News Guest

    bravo, Paul.
    Fuse News, Oct 22, 2003
  6. Steve Young

    graham Guest

    MCSE is absolutly worthless - unless you already work in IT. Stick to roller

    graham, Oct 22, 2003
  7. Steve Young

    CybrSage Guest

    The MCSE cert will get you the interview, your knowledge will get you the
    job. Without the cert, your knowledge will be unknown, since you will not
    have the interview to show it off...
    CybrSage, Oct 22, 2003
  8. Steve Young

    graham Guest

    I don't necessarily agree with that. I would argue MCSE means you have
    *some* knowledge in one corner of a large area of technology.

    In the IT world, networks comprise of many different
    things/components/software etc. MCSE is a qualification in Microsoft
    products only. It is not a measure of someones ability of using Cisco
    systems, Netware, Linux and loads of other stuff. *That's* what employers
    are interested in.

    Another point is IT is 99.999% experience based. Without that, you have a
    small insignificant piece of paper which really doesn't count for a great
    deal. No experience = no job.

    There again, would you want a job in a rapidly shrinking market?

    I speak with experience on this, I was MSCE certified in December 2000.

    Graham (MCSE, MCP, MCP+I)
    graham, Oct 22, 2003
  9. Steve Young

    nrf Guest

    I must disagree with that last sentence, and I think most people who've been
    around the industry for awhile will disagree. The fact is, most job
    interviews are obtained through people you know - where the scene from
    Spaceballs ("I am your father's brother's sister's cousin's former
    roommate...") is not far from the truth. CNN has estimated that over 90% of
    all available jobs are never publicly posted and are therefore "available"
    only to those who are connected on the inside. Typical sequence of events:
    a manager decides he wants to hire some people and casually asks some of the
    people around him whether he knows anybody qualified who is looking for
    work. Somebody remarks that he knows a guy who has done good work in the
    past who's looking for a job. That person then makes the intro's, etc.
    Notice how the cert played no role whatsoever in establishing the interview.
    The only thing that mattered is that the candidate had a good repuation for
    strong work and that he knew the right people. This is the way the job
    market actually works.

    Hey, don't just take my word for it. Think of your company and ask yourself
    how many people there knew somebody at the company before they were hired.
    I think you will find that the overwhelming majority had some sort of inside
    connection. Relatively few people come in "cold". Makes sense too.
    What are the odds of success of applying to a public job posting that
    thousands of others are also applying to, vs. the odds of success of having
    somebody on the inside who knows the hiring process at the company and can
    make sure that your name is brought to the attention of the right people?
    nrf, Oct 22, 2003
  10. I don't necessarily agree with that. I would argue MCSE means you have
    There's a lot of paper MCSEs out there...people that have just done a
    brain dump to pass the tests.
    Randall Ainsworth, Oct 23, 2003
  11. Steve Young

    SD Guest

    *your Schwartz is as BIG as mine, now, let's see how you USE it...*

    Agreed, experience counts for alot also, and companies are *slowly*
    beginning to realize that.. thanks to braindumps and paper certs....
    SD, Oct 23, 2003
  12. Learning how to shit sounds incredibly advantageous.
    Worlds Apart..., Oct 23, 2003
  13. Steve Young

    nrf Guest

    Seems to me like companies have figured it out pretty quickly. This is why
    you got so many paper-cert guys collecting unemployment. I rarely if ever
    hear of a company who only cares about certs but not experience, but I know
    many companies who care about experience but care not a whit about certs.
    nrf, Oct 23, 2003
  14. Steve Young

    SD Guest

    even better.
    SD, Oct 23, 2003
  15. Steve Young Guest

    has any paper MCSE's been hired lately?

, Oct 24, 2003
  16. We hire people based on ADs in the paper ..

    Mr. Robyn Myers, Oct 26, 2003
  17. Steve Young

    nrf Guest

    Nobody said that this never happens. What I said is that the vast majority
    of hiring is still done through personal contacts.

    Just consider this scenario. Let's say your company puts out an ad in the
    paper for a position for which I'm qualified. You and I both know that my
    odds of getting that job are vastly improved if I just so happen to be an
    old acquaintance of the hiring manager or some bigshot at the company, vs.
    if I was just some random guy who simply applied through the ad. This is
    true of every company in the world.

    Just think of it this way. How did Steve Ballmer happen to get hired into
    Microsoft in the first place? Did the fact that Ballmer just so happened to
    be Bill Gates's old Harvard roommate have anything to do with it? Nah, I'm
    sure that had nothing to do with it at all. Or what about the fact that
    when Microsoft was still a small company, practically every employee
    "coincidentally" happened to be a graduate from Lakeside Highschool, which
    even more coincidentally, happened to be Bill Gates's high school? When
    Intel first started out, 'coincidentally', all the people there just so
    happened to be coincidentally old friends from previous semiconductor
    companies. Cisco's core group of people were all coincidentally a bunch of
    old friends in college.

    Look, while it might be nice to think of a workplace that selected purely on
    merit, the fact is, there isn't a single company in the world where politics
    and influence play no role. Let's face it. People are not robots, and
    never will be. People will make decisions based on emotions - they always
    have and they always will.

    Besides, what one person might call nepotism or insider preference, another
    might simply call conflict aversion or organizational culture reinforcement.
    Ever hire somebody's who's technically brilliant and interviews well, but
    when he's brought onboard, turns out that his personality and social skills
    are totally unsuitable for the job? I have. Ever been in a company where
    people simply dislike each other on a personal level? I've been there too.
    Believe me, it's not a good situation. It doesn't matter how technically
    competent you are, if you don't get along with your coworkers, that's going
    to be a problem for you and the company. This is why people prefer to hire
    someone they know - if you hire your friend, you reduce (not eliminate, but
    reduce) the chances of a personality conflict. Obviously if he's your
    friend, then you must get along with him (otherwise, he's not your friend),
    and if everybody else gets along with you, then odds are everybody will get
    along with your friend too.

    What I'm saying is that the most effective way in getting a job by far is
    knowing the right people. Can you get a job through a public ad? Sure.
    But it's a pretty low-percentage play.
    nrf, Oct 26, 2003
  18. Steve Young

    CybrSage Guest

    You have to discount the nepotism jobs from the equation...if you never had
    a chance it does not matter if you have experience or a certification. You
    do not have a chance at the job.

    For all the other jobs out there, you need to be competative. If you post a
    job, you will receive over 500 resumes for the position. How do you weed
    them down to an acceptable number to read? Easily, you remove all the
    CybrSage, Oct 26, 2003
  19. You have to discount the nepotism jobs from the equation...if you never had
    You got that right. I got laid off at the end of May - been there 8
    years, several certs...but they kept the owner's kids who don't know
    jack shit.
    Randall Ainsworth, Oct 26, 2003
  20. Steve Young

    Steve Wilbur Guest

    I do a lot of hiring for IT jobs and I can tell you that the last thing I
    would do is remove applications because they had no certs. Hell, that's a
    bonus in my book! I'd rather have someone who spent a year getting real
    experience than someone who spent a year studying to take a test for some
    lame MCSE test. Usually those people don't know anything useful - just how
    to pass the test.
    Steve Wilbur, Oct 26, 2003
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