I can't post to this group

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by Box750, Mar 11, 2006.

  1. Box750

    Box750 Guest

    I can't post to this group via email, I tried about 20 times (yes thats
    a 20), and always the same message:

    "This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification

    Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:



    ----- Original message -----

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    Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:40:11 +0000
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    Box750, Mar 11, 2006
    #1
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  2. Of course you can't. Usenet is not eMail and they're not interoperable.
    Get yourself informed at Wikipedia or read the relevant RFCs!
     
    Sebastian Gottschalk, Mar 11, 2006
    #2
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  3. Box750

    Jim Watt Guest

    How fools rush in;

    Have you never heard of email to usenet gateways, used by those who
    wish to hide their identity?

    Generally anyone who feels the need to do that in normal groups like
    this one is probably a timewasting wanker.

    Anyhow if the guy 'can't post' how come he did ?
     
    Jim Watt, Mar 11, 2006
    #3
  4. Then he shouldn't complain here but blame his provider.

    Anyway, AFAIK googlegroups.com is no such gateway and he has been
    posting at . So most likely a lack
    of understanding what he's doing.
    Anyway, alt.test would be a much better place for testing.
    He found the standard Google Groups web-interface? Obviously!
     
    Sebastian Gottschalk, Mar 11, 2006
    #4
  5. Box750

    Box750 Guest

    ----------------------------

    I am not posting here to test or to complaint that I can't post, I
    wanted advice about why this is happening.

    E-mails to news is not only used by those who want to hide their
    identity but also by those that for some reason (i.e:internet filter)
    can't post via web interface or simply because they prefer to post via
    email.

    Now lets see if anybody here can tell me why in some googlegroups it is
    possible to post via email and not in this one, because what causes the
    confusion is that whilst I can post via email to other places I can't
    do so here, and I dont use amy remailer or special technique.

    Box750
     
    Box750, Mar 12, 2006
    #5
  6. Box750

    Zilbandy Guest

    I've been using usenet for over 10 years now, and the concept of
    posting by email to this group, or any group is totally alien to me.
    Sorry, I can't figure out what you want/need. :(
     
    Zilbandy, Mar 12, 2006
    #6
  7. Box750

    Box750 Guest

    I forgot this, an example of what it is included in the emails google
    send to the subscribers:

    To post to this group, send email to
    or
    visit http://groups.google.com/group/lucky.openbsd.misc

    This refers to another group but it is exactly the same for this one
    (have deleted all emails), so am I really a fool for following what the
    googlegroups mailing lists say?
     
    Box750, Mar 12, 2006
    #7
  8. Box750

    Ant Guest

    Probably because this is not a Google Group; it is part of Usenet
    which is archived by them. Blame Google for blurring the distinction
    between their own groups, or forums, and traditional newsgroups
    accessed by NNTP.

    Google provide a web interface to Usenet, but apparently not a mail
    gateway (apart from to their own "groups") or public NNTP server.
     
    Ant, Mar 12, 2006
    #8
  9. Box750

    Vanguard Guest


    You cannot use e-mail protocols, like SMTP (simple mail transfer protocol),
    to connect to NNTP (network news transfer protocol) servers used to manage
    Usenet posts. You will need to use a newsreader that supports NNTP. If you
    want to use webnews-for-dummies interfaces, like Google Groups, you'll have
    to figure out how to script your client to interface with their webnews
    interface or find a different client with that support already built in (I
    don't know of local clients that are screen-mapped to the Google Groups
    webnews interface but then I don't waste my time with webnews interfaces).

    If you are attempting to hide behind an converter gateway service where you
    send using e-mail (via SMTP) to newsgroups (via NNTP) then you need to find
    a mail-to-news service. If that is what you are having difficulties with,
    you have successfully hidden WHICH such mail-to-news gateway service you are
    attempting to use.

    Google Groups cannot be posted to by using e-mail. You use their
    webnews-for-dummies interface (which is also not NNTP so you can't use a
    newsreader, either, with Google Groups). Get a real NNTP server if you want
    to use an NNTP client, like Outlook Express, Thunderbird, or Forte Agent.
    If you want to hide behind a mail-to-news gateway, well, you'll have to talk
    to whomever operates that UNNAMED service.
     
    Vanguard, Mar 12, 2006
    #9
  10. Box750

    Vanguard Guest


    You will STILL end up using the webnews-for-dummies interface for the Google
    Groups group. This group is NOT carried worldwide on other NNTP servers.
    It is a "private" group defined only within the realm of Google, just as are
    Yahoo Groups. The e-mail address means you attempted to subscribe to a
    private Google Groups group that the owner of that group requires
    registration. When you open a Google Groups group, you are the owner of
    that group and can regulate its use (i.e., it is a moderated private group).
    The owner wants you to send an e-mail to him/her before they will authorize
    your Google Groups username to have access to the group (or maybe to just
    post to it). The author apparently also provides a page where you can
    complete or start the registration (i.e., "Subscribe to This Group" link).

    You are NOT using e-mail in any way to access the groups (public or private)
    when using Google Groups. In what you've described, e-mail is used to
    register for *access* to the group (i.e., you need to ask someone for
    permission), and that is not the same as trying to use e-mail to access the
    group.
     
    Vanguard, Mar 12, 2006
    #10
  11. Box750

    Box750 Guest

    I was obviously confused as I thought most people here is using google
    to access the group and reading the comments it looks as if I am the
    only one doing so, I will explain briefly how it works as some people
    seem to haver never used it and just try to guess.

    You can read the groups (this one and others) from
    http://groups.google.com for free no registration needed. IF you
    register with googlegroups using your email address then you can also
    choose google to send you ALL the messages that appear to the email
    address used for registration so making the web interface redudant and
    if you do want to post you can also do so via email(and I know I can
    because I've done so).
    I do not have any newsreader and never had one, but now I discovered
    what is happening here, some groups can be posted and others can not.
    As someone pointed out, google has blurred the line between newsgroups
    and mailing lists and they do not make it clear what is what, they are
    to blame for this confusion, and I am pasting the email that
    googlegroups sent to me today:

    "You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
    Groups "alt.computer.security"
    group.

    To post to this group, send email to
    or
    visit http://groups.google.com/group/alt.computer.security

    To unsubscribe from this group, send email to


    To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.computer.security/subscribe

    To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to


    ===========================

    As you can see they insist that by sending an email to their list they
    post it here but it does not work in this groups for some reason.

    The only apology they have is that they are still in beta
     
    Box750, Mar 13, 2006
    #11
  12. Box750

    Ant Guest

    :

    [snip]
    You are running WinXP, so you have Outlook Express. This is a news and
    mail client, so you could use it just for newsgroups (Usenet) if you
    email with something else. People will criticise OE, but it's far
    better than using Google Groups for reading and posting. I don't think
    you'd be able to use it for Google's own forums.

    I see you are posting from a housing association in London, whose
    Internet connectivity is provided by Easynet. You would have to find
    out if they provide access to an NNTP (news) server if you wanted to
    use a newsreader.

    [...]
    Unbelievable. I had no idea they were *that* clueless.
    And yet they inflicted it upon the world. I prefered their old
    interface. Usenetters treat Google Groups as an archive to find old
    posts that are no longer on their servers.
     
    Ant, Mar 14, 2006
    #12
  13. Box750

    Jim Watt Guest

    Fair enough, so Google are introducing an email to Usenet facility.

    You need to distinguish between Usenet groups and those which
    are only found on Google, although they confuse the issue by
    calling their facility 'Google Groups' this group is not owned or
    controlled by Google.

    Theirs is not the first and won't be the last email to newsgroup
    gateway, however the general experience with them is that they
    are messy and used by troublemakers, so if you innocently use
    one you become a suspect.

    For serious newsgroup use you need a proper newsreader client
    program, and access to an NNTP server, your ISP should normally
    have one available.

    Google Groups web interface is useful as a searchable archive facility
    and complements this.

    Unlike email newsgroups and web forums seem to have attracted less
    attention from new users and have managed the deluge of spam better
    In amongst the rubbish nonsense and idiots you can find someone with
    an answer to that question thats not on the web or in a book.
     
    Jim Watt, Mar 14, 2006
    #13
  14. For someone that suggests being technically precise in their distinctions,
    you certainly dropped the ball with your assessment of mail2news servers.
    To be brutally honest you have probably read a lot of Usenet posts that
    originated as emails and were processed by the services you're decrying,
    and remained completely clueless.

    What you're really complaining about in a round about way is the anonymous
    remailer abusers who have little choice but to use those mail2news
    gateways to get their messages to Usenet. If you had paused to think about
    it you might have realized that all those messages carry the moniker of
    the remailer, not the mail2news server, and that if someone uses one of
    those gateways "naked" the message won't appear any different to casual
    readers than one posted directly to a news server.
    There's a number of very satisfactory gateways that allow one to read and
    post to Usenet without ever doing anything NNTP. The "proper" way to post
    is to do it whatever way you want, Google inclusive. NNTP is technically a
    peering arrangement between servers, and in fact Usenet started out as a
    medium that was accessed with email clients. What we call "news clients"
    were evolved from those early mail clients.
    Did you mean... "mailing lists"? :)
     
    Borked Pseudo Mailed, Mar 14, 2006
    #14
  15. Box750

    Moe Trin Guest

    On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article
    This is like saying that getting run over with an armored personnel carrier
    is better than being run over by a tank. Neither is particularly good.
    I can see that Easynet has a news server, but I don't see anyone posting
    to it. It might be that the users of Easynet don't read the same newsgroups
    that I do, or something else. Read that as you may.
    In the groups I normally read, google.group postings tend to be blocked
    or at least looked upon as noise to be ignored. Still, google has got to
    do something to pay their employees and the landlord.

    Old guy
     
    Moe Trin, Mar 14, 2006
    #15
  16. Box750

    Moe Trin Guest

    On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article

    Look at the headers of the articles. There are a number of quite obvious
    clues, such as the 'Organization:', 'User-Agent: G2/0.2', 'X-HTTP-UserAgent:'
    and the 'Message-ID:' headers - or the less obvious one that is always
    present - the Date: header showing a Pacific Standard/Daylight-Savings Time
    value (currently -0800) even though the poster is obviously located elsewhere.
    Thank all that is holy for that.
    Worse, most real newsreaders have the capability to filter unwanted noise
    through a score-file or killfile. Messages originating on google.groups have
    a Message-ID (the header that is effectively a serial number of the article)
    that contains the string "googlegroups.com" allowing effortless filtering.
    This means that a lot of the people who _could_ answer your question won't
    even see your post.
    Even if the ISP does not, there are a large number of publicly accessible
    news servers - many of them free (usually means the user gets to receive
    advertising that is sold to pay for the service), and many more for a small
    fee.
    Agreed - I have two "shortcuts" set up - one to the normal www.google.com,
    the other directly to the news archive search, and seem to use them more
    often than calling up a web browser and going to any non-google website.
    Yahoo is another search engine, but they're a distant third here.
    Email spam filter here is pretty harsh - so I rarely see spam any more.
    I haven't found that many web forums that have been useful to me.
    real news reader + extensive killfile = low rubbish content

    Old guy
     
    Moe Trin, Mar 14, 2006
    #16
  17. Box750

    Ant Guest



    Despite its shortcomings, OE is fine if you know how to configure and
    use it; certainly far better than a web interface. Anyway, you're a
    'nix guy, so with no disrespect, what would you know about it apart
    from what's evident in the cak-handed attempts by newbies, who know
    nothing of computers and net traditions, to post Usenet messages?

    [...]
    Yes, I'm aware of the "Usenet Improvement Project". I understand why
    people would want to /dev/null most google-groupers. However, I'll
    repeat here what I wrote in another group:

    New people online have no concept of Usenet. This is not helped by
    major consumer ISPs failing to promote it and no longer providing a
    news server. Mine is about to drop theirs, so I'll be moving shortly.

    It's all very well killfiling GG for a bit of short-term relief, but
    where is the new blood coming from to sustain Usenet? Newbies need to
    be educated (where possible) about the advantages of NNTP, and how to
    use it.
     
    Ant, Mar 14, 2006
    #17
  18. Box750

    Moe Trin Guest

    On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article
    Oh, so those CERT announcements in comp.security.announce, and all of
    the stuff in the Bugtraq mailing list don't count? ;-)
    Actually, I don't killfile google-group posts just because they're from
    google-groups. I do killfile for a lot of other reasons, but that isn't
    (yet) one of them.

    [compton ~]$ grep -Ev '(^[\[%]|Score|^$)' /var/spool/news/killfile | cut
    -d' ' -f1 | sort | uniq -c | column
    819 From: 1 Message-ID: 66 Xref:
    2 Lines: 108 Subject:
    [compton ~]$

    Just under a thousand entries in the file - from entire Big 8 hierarchies
    down to names and stupid words in subjects. The one 'Message-ID' kills a
    domain with lots of morphing posters, but that's all it would take to
    add google.groups.
    Part of the problem occurred in 1995 when microsoft invented the Internet
    and made look-alike tools (Lookout and Internet Exploiter) to handle
    everything. People raised in that atmosphere think the entire world is
    the web, and that you surf newsgroups. It's so easy - just click here!

    As far as major ISPs dropping newsgroups, that is in a way regrettable.
    Google suffered the most when AOL finally pitched it last year, and they
    were told that google.groups was the new and improved way to surf the
    news. It was a long time since 1993 when AOL first provided Usenet. Ever
    wonder why you see "Today is 4565 September, 1993 UTC"?
    If you like your provider otherwise, there are quite a number of public
    news servers still out there - many free, while others are a relatively
    nominal fee. Perhaps the best known is individual.net
    That's mainly why I don't kill for that reason only. Several of the
    newsgroups I follow have stats daemons that report the number of posts,
    and all kinds of useless data - one of which is the newsreader used.
    For about a third of the groups with those daemons, G2/0.2 is used for
    about a third of the posts, while in the other groups where the info
    is available, the numbers are at least 15%. The thing is, most of those
    posts are the ones asking questions - some of them FAQs that have only
    been answered several to dozens of times per week for years on end.
    They post from google, but they haven't figured out how to use the
    stupid search engine which would provide the answer in seconds, rather
    than a day or week later till someone replies to their ill-formed
    question.

    Old guy
     
    Moe Trin, Mar 15, 2006
    #18
  19. Box750

    Vanguard Guest

    So, like we said, you are using a mail-to-news gateway. In this case,
    Google Group's mail-to-news gateway. There are LOTS of mail-to-news
    gateways. Just because you mention Google doesn't tell us that you were
    using Google's rather than some other mail-to-news service (because maybe
    the problem was you were using some other mail-to-news gateway with a real
    NNTP server and were asking why your posts were getting propagated to
    Google's archive).

    As mentioned before, and for whomever's mail-to-news gateway you are using
    (Google's, in your case), the problem of their mail server not being able to
    connect to the mail-to-news host is a problem that only the mail-to-news
    provider can correct. Maybe it's just broke right now and will take awhile
    to fix.

    Are you including ANY attachments to your posts? Google, when using the
    webnews-for-dummies interface, bans any attachments. I don't remember if
    they strip them from the post or discard the post entirely. I know that
    I've used text-only NNTP servers with an attachment (I was trying to show a
    screen capture to help someone) where they accept the post submission okay
    (i.e., no error) but then discard the post so it will never show up.

    You will also need to take care of which e-mail client you use when using
    this mail-to-news scheme. Many e-mail client, as well as newsreaders, will
    use the References header to keep track of where a post fits in the
    hierarchy of a thread. Not Outlook, however. Outlook doesn't add the
    References header when replying and it also does not use the References
    header to organize those that you receive. I was on the MVPS mailing list
    for awhile and Outlook was a lousy e-mail client for that because none of
    the discussions got grouped into threads.
    And they blur it even further by combining their own "private groups" in
    with Usenet groups in searches. Apparently Google has never heard of the
    word "forum" to simply provide a linguistic distinction between Usenet and
    their own private groups, er, forums.
     
    Vanguard, Mar 15, 2006
    #19
  20. Box750

    Ant Guest

    Nah, I'm not worried about that! I run a lean and tweaked Win2k here
    and never have a problem with malware. The first thing a new OE user
    should do is make sure it's in the restricted security zone, and
    configure it to render only plain text.
    There ya go with that arcane command line stuff ;) Actually, I do like
    the way one can pipe utilities together in 'nix systems to do things.
    "One tool, one job" and all that. One of these days I should fire up
    that old Sparc 20, but I wouldn't dare connect it to the net. Apart
    from learning some low-level boot PROM and disk management commands, I
    never got much further than "cd", "ls", "chmod" and "cat". I'm quite
    at home in a Win DOS box, but I also like integrated GUI apps, as long
    as I have proper control over them.

    [...]
    It's a word processor, games machine, and web appliance all rolled
    into one. That's what most ordinary folks want; entertainment and the
    world at their fingertips. They're not interested in computing as
    such, or the complexities of what's going on under the hood. Trouble
    is, ease of use seems not to be compatible with security. I know there
    is more to it than that, as far as MS and Win is concerened, but I
    won't waffle on.
    No, I've not seen that. I suppose it's the number of days since a date
    in 1993. Perhaps it's an in-joke that I'm not privy to.
    I don't - this was the last straw. Today I signed up with a new one
    but am still using my old account.
    I'm currently using nine news servers. All except those belonging to
    my two current ISPs are free public access (posting allowed). Four of
    these are special purpose (no big 8 or alt), and three carry a typical
    subset of Usenet. The problem with free servers is unreliability,
    slowness, and incompleteness. Since much of my online activity is
    newsgroups, including one binary (not pr0n), I want a connectivity
    deal which includes them.
    I know, it does get tedious.
     
    Ant, Mar 16, 2006
    #20
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