How to tell a rank amateur from a seasoned one, or a pro

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. That will come as a surprise to the seasoned amateurs I know who have a 4/3
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Jun 23, 2010
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  2. RichA

    Guest Guest

    for a given sensor technology, smaller photosites *will* produce
    noisier and lower quality images. that is a basic law of physics.
    true. modern sensor technology has improved, which offsets photosites
    getting smaller, as well as improvements in raw processing, etc.
    Guest, Jun 28, 2010
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  3. RichA

    SMS Guest

    You're obviously using a different definition of "seasoned amateur."

    Well it is possible to get decent results with a 4:3 camera but the cost
    is so ridiculously high because of how much the good lenses cost that
    few "seasoned amateurs" would go that route.

    I.e., you can certainly get a good extreme wide-angle lens, the Olympus
    Zuiko 7-14mm f/4.0 costs over $1400, versus $700 for the Canon extreme
    wide-angle lens of comparable quality.

    Or consider the 90-250mm f2.8 lens, for a cool $4888 versus the Canon
    Zoom Telephoto EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS lens for $1900.

    Most of the 4:3 buyers are attracted by the small size, but do not
    realize the severe drawbacks of the 4:3 system, and the lack of any
    upgrade path.
    SMS, Jun 28, 2010
  4. That's true. But ... the basic sensor technology has now
    run up against the laws of physics, in most areas. The main
    remaining problem is the one that has plagued electronics since
    the mid-50s: 1/f noise in the amplifiers.

    There are other problems, of course, of which by far the worst
    is the poor spectral transmission properties of the dyes used
    in the Bayer filters. If you would look at the low light
    performance of a raw sensor with only an IR cutoff filter, the
    results would stun you.

    Doug McDonald
    Doug McDonald, Jun 29, 2010
  5. RichA

    John Navas Guest

    That's what naysayers have been saying all along, yet progress continues
    to be made, much like past declarations that science has learned all
    there is to know.
    I've seen them. There are other problems as well, all of which are
    subject to continued technological progress.

    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of
    in your philosophy."

    Best regards,

    Buying a dSLR doesn't make you a photographer,
    it makes you a dSLR owner.
    "The single most important component of a camera
    is the twelve inches behind it." -Ansel Adams
    John Navas, Jun 29, 2010
  6. RichA

    Guest Guest

    Guest, Jun 29, 2010
  7. RichA

    SMS Guest

    On 29/06/10 3:43 PM, George Kerby wrote:

    Yeah, I never saw LLPOF before this. In any case, I went and checked the
    CHDK documentation to see if my contributions to the Wiki had been
    removed by our favorite troll, and was pleased to see that they are all
    still there. So clearly he's not as smart as he thinks he is, since if
    he had recognized them as being from me (which he should have been able
    to do since I've posted almost the exact same text in Usenet threads
    that discuss CHDK) he would have removed them from the Wiki.
    SMS, Jun 30, 2010
  8. I doubt you'd even be able to recognize one. You're a master at stating
    your opinion as if it's fact. No one here falls for it.
    It's possible to get more than decent results but you would first have to be
    objective before you could see for yourself.
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Jun 30, 2010
    Tzortzakakis Dimitris, Jun 30, 2010
  10. RichA

    Ray Fischer Guest

    How does Navas lie? By pretending that "shutter lag" is the only delay
    involved in taking a picture. By ignoring the glacial autofocus times
    and the sluggish rate at which such cameras process and save photos.

    In other words, a "shutter lag" of zero wouldn't help in the slightest
    if the camera took 800msec to focus and save the picture.
    Ray Fischer, Jul 1, 2010
  11. RichA

    Ben Dover Guest

    To the readers of the world: We sincerely apologize for Ray Fischer's
    ignorance and lack of talent and skill. You see, he can only use cameras in
    fully automatic modes like any beginner snapshooter and crapshooter. He has
    no basic concepts of pre-focusing a camera to a hyperfocal setting or any
    other of the most basic of tasks that any real photographer masters in his
    first year. He's still trying to pretend to be a photographer while still
    using any camera, DSLR or not, in fully automated P&S modes. If he's ever
    used any real cameras at all that is.
    Ben Dover, Jul 1, 2010
  12. RichA

    SMS Guest

    Surely you realize that "shutter lag" is often used to describe the sum
    of AF lag and shutter lag. In reality it's the contrast detect focusing
    of the P&S that causes the AF lag, and while it's not as bad as it was
    in the past, it still is much slower than phase-detect AF, especially in
    challenging situations.

    It's of little consequence when shooting landscapes in good light. It's
    of major concern when photographing children or wild life, or when
    shooting in low light.
    SMS, Jul 1, 2010
  13. RichA

    SMS Guest

    Sorry about that post, I read the part "How does Navas lie" as if you
    were implying that he wasn't lying (when is he _not_ lying?).

    BTW, there's a web site in the UK that lists the lag of many P&S
    cameras, "".

    Also, Imaging Resource always prominently displays both the shutter lag
    and the AF lag of the cameras they test. I.e. the Panasonic FZ-35 has a
    full lag time of around .35 second. The
    SMS, Jul 1, 2010
  14. RichA

    SMS Guest

    Oops, hit send too soon.

    Also, Imaging Resource always prominently displays both the shutter lag
    and the AF lag of the cameras they test. I.e. the Panasonic FZ-35 has a
    full lag time of around 0.35 second which is one of the faster lag times
    for a P&S. The Canon EOS-50D has a full lag time of about 0.13 seconds.
    The slowest D-SLR is probably close to the fasted P&S, when you're not
    using live view. If you use live view then the D-SLR uses
    contrast-detection AF and the AF times worsen to those comparable to a P&S.
    SMS, Jul 1, 2010
  15. Each and every timing on that page is in total error. That whole page has
    been proved wrong innumerable times on every timing listed. But then you're
    too much of an inexperienced and ignorant fool to know that that because
    you've never used ANY cameras. YOU'RE the only one that refers to that page
    today. People with the least bit of experience know that that whole page is
    a sham. One of your own web-pages again perhaps? I wouldn't doubt it. Just
    like the one you put up trying to explain how you helped to install a
    computer-controlled geyser in Yellowstone Nat. Park.
    Outing Trolls is FUN!, Jul 1, 2010
  16. Unless it's one of those DSLRs (e.g. some Sony Alphas) that uses a
    separate live view sensor, which means it can still use fast phase
    focusing when using live view.
    Chris Malcolm, Jul 2, 2010
  17. RichA

    whisky-dave Guest

    I've always connsider shutter lag as shutter lag in that it's the differnce
    in time between activate the shutter button (in a sense that's the picture
    you wish to take) compared to the time it takes the electronics to open the
    shutter and store the image in it's buffer.
    Focausing has nothin gto do with shutter lag.

    Well in all these cases I think focus is a seperate issue, as is framing
    and decision making.
    whisky-dave, Jul 2, 2010
  18. RichA

    whisky-dave Guest

    Do you happen to know the lag on a purely mechanical camera
    say a SLR from the 70s like my old Practica L or even my first truely
    'electronic' canon A1 .
    whisky-dave, Jul 2, 2010
  19. RichA

    Peter Guest

    Using your perception, focusing time is included in the parameters you set.
    Peter, Jul 2, 2010
  20. RichA

    whisky-dave Guest

    Why ?

    I like to focus before I intend to capture the image.
    If I'm going to focus say on the 100M runner in 2012 Olympics
    I don;t class that as a 2 year shutter lag.
    My shutter lag will be the amount of time it takes for me to begin pressing
    the shutter to the time it takes for the image to be captured.
    Some might refer to it as a propagation delay which is what I do in
    'Electricity' travels fast, but at a finite speed.

    If it takes 2 years for the event to happen that's not the cameras fault.
    Same with focusing, which is focus lag.
    I remember the days of film changing lags too, which was removed by being
    able to have a 250 exp camera 'back'.
    Friends remember processing lags, as being a wedding photographer
    they used to have to get the film processed and printed within a few hours.
    This meant developing the film while driving to the darkroom in the car,
    washing it in meths too, although not while driving.

    I'm wondering when the first camera with pre-shutter trigger will be
    as standard like auto focus is today.
    whisky-dave, Jul 2, 2010
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