How secure is your Windows Computer?

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by mailbox, May 3, 2004.

  1. mailbox

    Mimic Guest

     
    Mimic, May 30, 2004
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  2. I guess we'll never know, since you have excluded them from this
    subthread. ;o)

    I do doubt that they enjoy her posts at all, and they probably feel sorry
    for her ferrets.
    Which, I believe, is not unheard of.
    IIRC Norton was singled out for missing some ConTEnt-TyPe exploit
    where they didn't catch "Incorrect MIME Type Exploits" due to the
    odd capitalizations. I'm pretty sure there are some people hacking
    away at the major AV companies products.
     
    FromTheRafters, May 30, 2004
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  3. mailbox

    John Smith Guest

    Done. Moron!
     
    John Smith, May 30, 2004
  4. mailbox

    Stalks Guest

    She was refferring to 3rd party unsolicited malicious programs placing there executables in that
    directory.

    Jesus at this thread, whether or not she knows anything about what she is talking about, the way you
    have all "jumped on the bandwagon" is amusing, if not pathetic. Nit picking at spelling mistakes and
    the like.

    Killfiled you all.
     
    Stalks, May 30, 2004
  5. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    According to Tracker, it was the Evil Ferret Owners who did her
    in, i.e. hacked her computer, lol. That's why she wrote her
    <cough> "book". ;-)

    Fwiw, I hate ferrets. (Li'l weasels.)

    P.S. I put the ferrets ng back in, heh. :p

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: PGP 8.0.2
    Comment: MY PUBLIC KEY www.queenofcyberspace.com/laura_fredericks.asc

    iQA/AwUBQLk/bKRseRzHUwOaEQJe9wCcCfgVfTjLivAKpLaJ8RSTWOi+mYAAoPIJ
    n/1ZPt4UU5Qwq1zKmURRz17l
    =Oc2F
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --
    Laura Fredericks
    PGP key ID - DH/DSS 2048/1024: 0xC753039A

    Usenet Flamewars:
    http://www.queenofcyberspace.com/usenet/

    Remove CLOTHES to reply.
     
    Laura Fredericks, May 30, 2004
  6. mailbox

    TisMe Guest

    Pain Devine wrote:
    :: Believable I suppose. But most today get them because of social
    :: engineering.
    :
    : You watched the discovery channel and heard the term "Social
    : Engineering" so now your flashing it, yet you don't really know what
    : it means... lol

    There you go assuming.


    :

    Social Engineering affects every man woman and child in some way regardless
    if you are on the Internet or at home, and work. It has no boundaries to age
    either. It's a person's instinct of how they react to social interaction
    when they are confronted by a individual or not. It can also be human error.
    You could possibly be a part of it, or a victim of it. It could be a
    subconscious reaction, or conscious to know what is going on is wrong, but
    not know what to do about it. You could be very oblivious to what is or has
    happened to you also. Most of the time you have no clue till it is too late.
    It can play with emotions too in order to get a certain response from an
    individual.

    With the Internet Social Engineering can play havoc with a Internet
    Business, but it can also In IRC chat and in your Instant messengers, and
    email. If you think you can run to your favorite IT and have a conversation
    about this...you might succeed. But you could also fail. Most ITs don't want
    to discuss the subject because the very way instincts of human nature play a
    role in this, and to say that a employee won't answer a question that is not
    so innocent as it sounds is just as bad, because remember the IT just spent
    days securing the workstations, or the networks, now all of his/hers efforts
    are down the drain because of a simple question was asked by a stranger on
    the phone. So most ITs are intimidated by this. They can tell you to shred
    the copies of invoices that the customer told you to throw away, and to not
    give info out over the phone, or in IM, and email but will you? Some ITs
    even say their is not that much importance to Social Engineering. You can't
    retrain a mind that is grown so they will think before they react, and human
    error is a fact of life, everyone is guilty of human error. So how do you
    expect to train someone on this? Last but not least is the old phrase of
    s*** happens, you can't train anyone for that now can you?

    Examples:

    [1] It's not necessary, that your custodial staff know how to read a
    financial statement, but it is important that they know what financial
    statements look like, so that if they find such a document in the CEO's
    trash can, they know to handle that document differently from general trash
    and to raise an alarm. If you haven't included the custodial staff in
    training against social engineering, then a dumpster-diver just gained
    access to financial information your company didn't want published. The same
    could happen in the home environment. Thrown out credit card offers, and
    bank statements carry personal information on you. With this type
    information they can get a new credit card, and have a field day with it.
    Something that was treated as oblivious trash was used by a dumpster-diver.
    Your ID was stolen, and your good credit is now history.

    [2] Your daughter is 14 years old, she is talking with a person on a irc
    server. The conversation goes like this...

    <Person> hi where do you live?

    <Daughter> I can't give out that info my mom would be so mad.

    <Person> ok then can you tell me what grade you are in? east coast or west
    coat?

    <Daughter> I guess so I live on the East Coast.

    <Person> How about your mascot, and what grade are you in? That wont be
    jumping over the line with your mom right?

    <Daughter> nope its not my address so I guess its ok. I'm in the 9th grade
    our mascot is the Bears.

    <Person> you live in a big town or small town?

    <Daughter> Oh I guess I could tell you that too sense you know the other I
    live in.....

    This conversation could be carried out in a few days or weeks even one day.
    But it's all info on a 14-year-old girl. The person on the other end is a
    pro at getting this information. Your daughter doesn't suspect a thing
    during this conversation. Maybe the person has claimed to be a 17 year old,
    and your child thinks it's a cool thing because she is just 14 and talking
    with a 17 year old boy. But the reality is it's not a 17 year old on the
    other end, its a 46 year old male with a record for child abuse. Most teens
    after so long, will even give out their address because after all they know
    this person now for so many weeks online, so they consider them to be a
    friend. So the perpetrator gathers this info in pieces until they have
    enough to find them, or they just may want to play it cool because they know
    eventually they will have the info they need. So one day they can stalk,
    kidnap, or carry out a home invasion. The sad truth is this all can be done
    to a adult too. You need not to be paranoid, but you still have to be on
    your guard. If they are asking for too much personal information, and you
    just met them, then be on guard.

    [3] Your at work, and the phone rings....

    <You> hello thank you for calling blah blah....

    <Them> hi I was just wondering, isn't Bob still married to Jill?

    <You> no as far as I know his wife's is named Nancy.

    <Them> ok I was just curious thanks.

    Seems harmless? Nope it's not harmless. There is a good chance that you just
    gave someone a password to a network. I had said in the past to never use
    your family's names or birthdays. But I guess I could right now have a field
    day of quite a few computers online, or in someones office , just by knowing
    family names, and birth dates. Don't think you are the only ones guilty of
    this. Businesses do the same thing. Shame on you! But shame on the person
    answering the phone also. She fell for a well-known trap. What she should
    have said was "Gee I don't remember her name, would you like to talk to Bob
    and find out?" If there is a chance they are legit, they won't hang up now,
    and Bob will know them. Bob is the boss so let Bob tell them they have no
    business having this info if need be. But when it concerns office personnel,
    never give out any info that is personal on the phone. It doesn't matter how
    innocent it looks when you're on the phone, most of the time you are talking
    to a stranger, so keep the personnel info to yourself.

    How is this all Social Engineering? In the first example the manager taught
    his office personnel on the importance of using the shredder. But the major
    mistake here was, everyone in the business needs to know how Social
    Engineering works. He failed to talk to the janitorial staff. So they still
    fell victim when a piece of paper went into the trash can by mistake. (Human
    error). This is not taught too just a few selective personnel. Everyone in
    the office needs the skills. So now important information on that company is
    common knowledge. Keeping a few personnel in the dark does not make for
    happy day folks. The second example is gathering information from an
    innocent victim. Sure I won't give you my address, but telling you the name
    of the school I got too won't hurt. And my mom never said not to say that.
    But notice it was more than just the school, it was also the town, and the
    mascot. That's all the info they need to run to the Internet with, and hunt
    them down. If they should happen to get the phone number of the victim too,
    they only need to do a reverse number look up to get a address online. Most
    teens do eventually give out the phone number. A good majority of teens give
    out school whereabouts, and other tidbits of info in chat rooms. You only
    need to sit in a chat room for teens and watch a pro at work. It's a good
    example of how a person preys on the young online. A very good example of
    Social Engineering affecting children. The last example is kind of like
    catching someone off guard. Most wouldn't even think of this as being a
    problem, but it's a good example of how Social Engineering works in the
    office. The phone is the most used item, it can also be the biggest security
    breech there is in the office. Other than the trash can.

    Social Engineering is also how telemarketers are able to keep you on the
    phone. Fast-talking gives them time to say enough to get you hooked so you
    don't hang up. A majority hangs up within the first 15 seconds, the rest
    feel as though they are obligated to stay on the phone with them, to hang up
    would be rude. This is Social Engineering, it is what the telemarketers is
    hoping for, ... a sympathetic listener and a hopeful sale.

    Social Engineering plays on emotions, human instincts, and the art of
    surprise, to catch you off guard so you react before you think first. it
    could also rely on human error. It's no wonder ITs don't want to discuss it
    because it is so vast.


    Good book:

    *The Art of Deception, Controlling the Human Element of Security, by Kevin
    Mitnick and William Simon.* <<<<------ A book incase you want to read up on
    it. If you go to Amazon.com and you read the comments on the book you will
    notice that other readers listed more books to choose from too.

    lets go over how this affects your email...

    When you receive a virus or a worm in the mail, they are playing with your
    fear, emotions for caring for the needy or the less fortunate, greed, lust,
    kindness.... I could go on and on with this. it's still Social Engineering.
    but now lets give some examples.

    Fear: There is a worm presently out now that fits this. What they do is they
    send you a email that is masked to look like a update of one type or
    another. Just like the one for the Windows Update. Another form of this is
    the email that went around stating that AOL accounts were fixing to loose
    their accounts unless they went to a certain page, and gave their personal
    information. Another one stated to post info for other accounts such as bank
    accounts, and even a few other ISPs. But all of these had the one thing in
    common they all played on fear. Everyone knows with the updates, you really
    need them some of them are crucial in order to keep you secure online. So
    the emails them selves put fear into the readers, which in turn they opened
    the attachment thinking they were going to get a upgrade. Apparently their
    are plenty people out there that don't realize that Microsoft has never sent
    a email to their Windows users, and they never will. There are just too many
    of them, and besides how would they get your email account in the first
    place? your Microsoft products send enough information to them on a regular
    basis, they don't need to add the millions of email accounts to their ocelot
    to keep up with. With the AOL scam... These people that set these pages up
    are very brazen in my book. They first have to write a very convincing
    email, next they have to set up a Website to look so much like the website
    they are masking to where even a pro has to look twice sometimes. All the
    way down to the pics, colors, and include a nice script to collect the data
    from the deceived souls that visit. Well, there is a way around this too.
    before you fall victim to it, give the ISP, bank or who ever it is asking
    for the information a call. There is nothing like a ten minute to a hour
    call on the phone to confirm if it's a hoax or for real. I have done it.
    When Earthlink was hit with the same scam. That was the best 15 minutes I
    spent on the phone. I never clicked the link because I wasn't sure what was
    waiting for me on the other side, so be weary of these. Some will even say
    you need to update or lose your account, and you get their to be hit by a
    virus in a iframe.

    emotions for caring for the needy or the less fortunate is one that
    sometimes just makes me boiling mad. These are the ones that want either a
    donation for some kind that doesn't exist, or it even could be a hoax just
    to get you to pass it on [forward]. You get quite a few forwards in this
    type email. But what ever the case is of the poor email you got go to Urban
    legions first and be sure it's worthy of passing along, or donating too. You
    can even check with Charity driven Websites to find some merit of
    authenticity first. Your BBB list the legit ones. For a while their was a
    time back that a email was going around about people clicking on a WTC link.
    They claimed it was a virus and not to click and go there you was suppose to
    delete it immediately, and then forward this email to everyone in your
    address book. Well... The forward this email to everyone in your address
    book is your first clue it could be a hoax. you go straight to the Urban
    legions website to check it out. I did, and yes it is there as a hoax. But
    that doesn't mean if your virus program pops up and says there is a virus in
    it, for gosh sakes believe the virus program, and don't open the email. it's
    a matter of time before some idiot does put one in it.

    movin on....
    Greed. Ah yes greed, can't live without money everyone wants a big piece of
    the pie, but so do the idiots online that want to get rich over night. They
    also want to get that way by any means possible. You also have to face the
    fact there are plenty people out there to fall for any scam that comes
    along. Including the scam on sending money overseas to secure money held in
    some bank I never heard of, for some man I never heard of or much less could
    pronounce his name. But he needed his money so bad, gosh! So did I. Sounds
    like he needed a attorney more than anything else. if you think about it,
    why do they need money to get money out of a bank? Why not just have someone
    in your own Country help you out? The thing that got me the most was the
    part of you receiving money for helping. Face it, if it's being held in a
    bank and they wont part with it, there is no way they will allow a foreigner
    to get it out. You would never see a dime for helping either it's a scam so
    they will take your money and haul butt. OH! right! that's where that
    millions of dollars came from in the first place was from those poor souls
    who fell for it.

    lets just move on to Lust now... lust can be your Britney Spears pic you
    have been dying for. Only it's not Britney Spears its a virus. It can be a
    porn lure, or some promises of a few downloads of your not so nice movies of
    the illegal kind. Could be the police too with a nice sting in process. But
    for the most part if you got it in the mail, and you didn't ask for it leave
    it alone. You have a 10% chance that what your fixing to click on is legit.
    90% chance your fixing to get a virus. or locked up. I will not go into much
    detail on this I am sure we all are mature adults here, but I shouldn't have
    to spell this out because you are suppose to be mature adults. I only ask
    that if you have teens, to be sure to explain to them not to download this
    kind of stuff, it is rumored also there are still some pics of illegal age
    kids circulating online, if you are caught with them you could be in serious
    trouble for having them.

    kindness can be as ruthless as the others. Most of these are sending
    tidbits, poems, even a picture or two. or advice, also there is seasonal
    ones that come out at certain times of the year. Most of these are your
    poems related with a nice pic depicting the season. Unfortunately this is
    how I got my one and only virus, and it was a dozey too. Felice navidad
    virus. The picture was so pretty too. I got it back in December of 2000 I
    think or the year after. I learned my lesson folks.


    So each of these are related to Social Engineering, By now you should be
    seeing somewhat of a pattern to how Social Engineering works. You can see
    clearly how they can lure a person reading email into a trap. They are not
    nice. And the virus and even worms attached can really mess up a computer or
    a network to the point of no return. No data left, all lost. Costing
    thousands and millions of dollars for a business. Hopefully you can see how
    they trick you into doing something that you wouldn't normally do. You
    should also be able to spot them. You may of even thought of one that you
    got in a email. What ever the case, hopefully you are better informed.
    Because there is such a vast amount of them, it would be hard for me to
    cover them all.

    do not believe in today's society and the internet that Internet Fraud is
    just a white-collar crime. I don't believe for one minute that just
    white-collar individuals could carry out some of the schemes. With today's
    tools to help put pages together, and the simplicity of email generating
    software. It makes for a easy way for even a teen to carry out Internet
    fraud. All they need is a new or old idea, and they are in business. If it
    was 1997, then I could see it. But it's no longer 1997 The internet has come
    a long way. So with the Internet evolving to what it has today, so has
    internet crime.

    Social Engineering is a vast fraud that deceives others into disclosing
    valuable data that will benefit the cracker in some way. Even something like
    a virus put into the wild online has a payback for the virus writer. Fame.
    Social Engineering has psychological techniques for interacting with and
    manipulating the victim to obtain the desired information, or desired
    affect. Does this make it more clearer for the reader? So basically any type
    of online business or individual can fall for this. Because we are all
    human. One of the ways a person is trapped is because being new on the
    Internet they feel if there is a business online the Internet already makes
    the Website legit. Some say their reasoning for this is because the Internet
    is a complicated world, they could never be so smart to put such nice
    Websites together, and they pass this perception along thinking the same for
    any websites they encounter online. It's kind of lame thinking but if your
    new to the Internet face it is a vast universe in itself someone put it
    there so it must of been a business man cause there is no way grandma could
    of done it. Right? Wrong! You can be dirt poor but have enough money to keep
    a website up for a few months just so you can commit fraud. You don't need a
    BA degree in Web design to generate code anymore. Actually you don't need
    money. Just find you a nice friendly free host, and have a ball. There are
    plenty of html software tools to help you on your quest.

    But why mention the techniques of how the fraud is carried out? I am a firm
    believer that information is the key to stop internet Crime. Notice I don't
    give out all the facts on how the crimes are carried out in detail. I
    wouldn't even dream of showing someone how to write a virus if I had this
    information. But Social Engineering is vast and it's on the rise online. If
    you train how to spot the tricks of the trade, then you stop a crime from
    being committed. You take the drama out of the crime. I personally wish that
    the Law Enforcement wouldn't broadcast the names of these individuals all
    over the news. Your just adding wood to their fire. Causing them more fame
    and fortune in some cases to warrant their continuing efforts. This also
    causes others thinking about doing the same thing to think their Fame
    payback will be well worth the small jail time and fine if they should get
    caught. Most now do get caught.

    Now you can also see why the IT community doesn't like this subject. Think
    back to the first post on this subject... The IT can and always have secure
    networks, and workstations and the like. They send out memos to the
    employees to remind them on their passwords, and to change them every so
    often. They use Anti virus and firewalls, and even routers to secure these
    networks. And depending on the type business they have other things/tools
    they use to secure things too. But down the road security can be lost by
    something as simple as a phone call that gives out a name or birth date.
    Human nature can bring down a business in less than 15 to 20 seconds on the
    phone or IM, or even a email. It's a battle ground that the IT fights all
    the time. There isn't much they can do about human nature. Some wont even
    say the word Social Engineering when it comes to a secured network that has
    been compromised. They may have a hard time accepting the idea that Social
    Engineering could bring their networks down.



    http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/answerstips/story/0,24330,3360637,00.html
    This has a media file on it. It's more generated towards a business on how
    Social Engineering works in the business. A few examples are given too.


    http://cybercrimes.net/Property/Hacking/Social Engineering/PsychSocEng/PsySocEng.html
    The Psychology of Social Engineering

    http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/secu/article.php/1040881 Social
    Engineering: The Human Side Of Hacking

    http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering Social Engineering
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    http://www.labmice.net/Security/socialengineering.htm categories,
    verification and authentication procedures, guidelines for awareness
    training, methods of identifying a social engineering attack, warning
    signs ...



    http://www.itsecurity.com/asktecs/may1003.htm What is Social
    Engineering?

    http://www.sans.org/rr/catindex.php?cat_id=51 white papers

    http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/16870.html
    Web Chat Attacks


    http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid14_gci537875,00.html


    http://searchsecurity.techtarget.co...,00.html?query=social engineering&type=simple
    Best Web Links for professionals and nonprofessionals


    http://www.zdnet.com/filters/printerfriendly/0,6061,2604480-2,00.html
    Mitnick teaches 'social engineering' This is the guy that spent 5
    years in prison for using Social Engineering to hack big name networks.
     
    TisMe, May 30, 2004
  7. mailbox

    Shane Guest

    Top bombing! LOL!


    Shane


     
    Shane, May 30, 2004
  8. Heh heh!
    I think there will be quite a few stand-alone malware infected by
    Win32PE viruses, though whether these pose identification challenges
    is another matter. In the days of .EXE jokes that came from sites
    with encouragement to pass them on, there were prolly several infected
    fan-outs that would have had the positive SE effect of being known to
    be known "safe joke" files - esp. with av that alerts on safe jokes.
    Yep. Usually it's just adding .exe file names to lists of processes
    to shut down in memory; dunno if anyone's going deeper.


    No, perfection is not an entrance requirement.
    We'll settle for integrity and humility
     
    cquirke (MVP Win9x), May 30, 2004
  9. mailbox

    Renegade Guest

    One thing that I have never understood about the top posting argument...
    have you ever noticed that almost always it involves being crossposted to
    several groups? Multiple crossposting is considered bad netiquette too,
    just like top posting. That is why the better newsreaders will warn you
    that you are crossposting.
     
    Renegade, May 30, 2004
  10. mailbox

    Ford Prefect Guest

    The funniest part about this discussion on "Social Engineering" is
    that you have been "social engineered" into thinking it is something
    special in the computer realm.

    "Social engineering" is nothing more than a psuedo-geek term for being
    conned.
    Con artists have been around since the beginning of human history and
    are nothing new or special.
    They've been outsmarting companies and individuals since time
    immemorial. The joke is that you and others who have been oblivious
    to these dealings have suddenly become aware of con artists because
    someone mentioned it in an internet discussion and are now acting as
    if this is some earth shattering revelation.

    You are so far behind the times it is pathetic.
     
    Ford Prefect, May 30, 2004
  11. mailbox

    TisMe Guest

    Ford Prefect wrote:
    : TisMe wrote:
    :: Pain Devine wrote:
    :::: Believable I suppose. But most today get them because of social
    :::: engineering.
    :::
    ::: You watched the discovery channel and heard the term "Social
    ::: Engineering" so now your flashing it, yet you don't really know what
    ::: it means... lol
    ::
    :: There you go assuming.
    ::
    ::
    :::
    ::
    :: Social Engineering affects every man woman and child in some way
    :: regardless if you are on the Internet or at home, and work. It has
    :: no boundaries to age either. It's a person's instinct of how they
    :: react to social interaction when they are confronted by a individual
    :: or not. It can also be human error. You could possibly be a part of
    :: it, or a victim of it. It could be a subconscious reaction, or
    :: conscious to know what is going on is wrong, but not know what to do
    :: about it. You could be very oblivious to what is or has happened to
    :: you also. Most of the time you have no clue till it is too late. It
    :: can play with emotions too in order to get a certain response from
    :: an individual.
    :
    : The funniest part about this discussion on "Social Engineering" is
    : that you have been "social engineered" into thinking it is something
    : special in the computer realm.
    :
    : "Social engineering" is nothing more than a psuedo-geek term for being
    : conned.
    : Con artists have been around since the beginning of human history and
    : are nothing new or special.
    : They've been outsmarting companies and individuals since time
    : immemorial. The joke is that you and others who have been oblivious
    : to these dealings have suddenly become aware of con artists because
    : someone mentioned it in an internet discussion and are now acting as
    : if this is some earth shattering revelation.
    :
    : You are so far behind the times it is pathetic.

    Your right it is no more than a con artist at work.
    But online most don't call them con artist. They have a number
    of different words like phishing, or brand spoofing for what they do.
    Plus they call the con artist a Phisher, and a few other words. I kept it
    simple.
    Maybe old fashion, but it works. If I had called them con artist,
    I am sure there would of been someone to complain about that too.
    You can't please everyone.
     
    TisMe, May 30, 2004
  12. That hasn't been my experience, more often than not it is due to
    regulars in the groups I frequent outright refusing to "get in line"
    and quit being such non-conformists. ;o)
    I get a kick out of people who complain about "off topic" posts when
    it is obvious that massive crossposting is in use - and to widely varied
    topical groups. This selection of groups isn't so bad, if you can manage
    to fit ferrets in with computer security issues.

    I heard somewhere that ferrets predate cats as household pets, is there
    any truth to that?

    ....and is it recommended that you disable your security programs when
    installing new software?
    I don't initiate crossposts, but I do reply to them. I have no way of
    knowing what group(s) the person I am discussing something with
    is reading in unless he or she sets a followup-to. When they do, I
    at least attempt to read that group in case that discussion continues.

    As far as top/bottom goes, it would make for better readability if
    people would just follow suit with whatever style the first respondent
    in a subthread uses - and just quit quibbling.
     
    FromTheRafters, May 30, 2004
  13. mailbox

    Sunny Guest

    Like yours does ?
     
    Sunny, May 30, 2004
  14. The directory reffferrrered to is an easily found one due to they're
    being an environment variable containing that path.
    Truly shameful behavior, I for one am beyond such things. :O)
    Killfile some beer so we can all have a party, won't you?
     
    FromTheRafters, May 30, 2004
  15. mailbox

    Ford Prefect Guest

    The new trendy names such as "phishing", etc., are merely used to
    romanticize and rationalize the con game to the uninitiated.

    We need to start calling it what it is - a plain simply everyday con
    job. Strip away the mystique of the fancy names and it will start to
    crumble as more people recognize the activties for what they are. THe
    fancy names make it sound new and exotic, which causes people to think
    it is something they know nothing about and cannot take action
    against. Take away the mask and people will understand what to do.
     
    Ford Prefect, May 31, 2004
  16. mailbox

    Shane Guest

    Now that's a fair and a wiseguy rule to be guided by! ;-)

    Shane
     
    Shane, May 31, 2004
  17. mailbox

    Heather Guest

    Rafters is generally a fair and wise guy....a bit obscure at times, but then
    that is right up your alley, Shane......grin.

    Figgs (the miscreant)
     
    Heather, May 31, 2004
  18. mailbox

    John DeGroof Guest

    Top posting, such as you have done, is fine as long as you don't quote
    the entire thread, as you have also done. This messes up the flow of
    the conversation, and is what everyone has a problem with.

    HOWEVER, I have a problem with people who quote entire threads only to
    add one new line of their own. Why not just quote the line you're
    replying to and quit wasting bandwidth? Never made much sense to me,
    just like the whole issue of top posting in the first place.
     
    John DeGroof, Jun 1, 2004
  19. mailbox

    Shane Guest

    Heather and I have been on the MS groups - where top posting is the norm
    (and no problem whatsoever!) - for years. Here bottom posting is the norm
    and we pretty-much comply with that out of courtesy to the regulars, or post
    in line where appropriate because it really does make sense to. When we top
    post here it's either in response to other top posters or to annoy those
    sorry individuals who rant about it - hence not clipping.

    Shane
     
    Shane, Jun 1, 2004
  20. mailbox

    Heather Guest

    Or I just plain forget that some folks get upset over top
    posting.......frankly there are a lot more serious issues in the world today
    that they should worry about.

    And as you say, my dear......we are used to top posting.....works for the MS
    groups. I detest scrolling down forever for a one liner way more than top
    posting......and I don't bother anymore.

    Heather
     
    Heather, Jun 1, 2004
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