Foveon camera(s)

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by AlanB, Oct 23, 2003.

  1. AlanB

    AlanB Guest

    Is the Sigma the only camera currently using the Foveon X3 chip?
    Is anyone else going to use the X3 chip in their digital cameras?
     
    AlanB, Oct 23, 2003
    #1
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  2. AlanB

    Todd Walker Guest

    Yes, thank God.
    Let's hope not. I prefer color accuracy to false sharpness.

    --
    ________________________________
    Todd Walker
    http://www.toddwalker.net
    Canon 10D:
    http://www.toddwalker.net/canon10d
    My Digital Photography Weblog:
    http://www.toddwalker.net/dpblog.htm
    _________________________________
     
    Todd Walker, Oct 23, 2003
    #2
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  3. AlanB

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    Tony Spadaro, Oct 23, 2003
    #3
  4. AlanB

    Mark M Guest

    When the ONLY taker is Stigma...that should tell you something.

    Sigma was a camera manufacturer (well sorta--they had a body that took their
    mediocre line of lenses) that nobody had noticed as a **camera**
    manufacturer...and for good reason.
    This new sensor was a long-shot for them, but it got them noticed.
    I guess they figured any press was good press...
    ....I'd have to call it a significant failure.
    At the very least, I'm sure they lost all the money they put into the
    project, and at best, they got...well...publicity.
     
    Mark M, Oct 23, 2003
    #4
  5. AlanB

    zeitgeist Guest


    Is it the chip or the camera maker, considering all the energy going into
    canon/nikon wars, it takes a lot to get someone to even consider what was a
    cheap consumer goods product. And their lack of further innovation, they
    still only have a 3mb chip, just doesn't inspire me.
     
    zeitgeist, Oct 23, 2003
    #5

  6. Is it the chip or the camera maker, considering all the energy going into
    canon/nikon wars, it takes a lot to get someone to even consider what was a
    cheap consumer goods product. And their lack of further innovation, they
    still only have a 3mb chip, just doesn't inspire me.
    [/QUOTE]

    The chip tunes layers of silicon to different levels of light depth
    penetration. It wouldn't surprise me if they had a hell of a time with
    color purity.
     
    Kevin McMurtrie, Oct 23, 2003
    #6
  7. They have an exclusive agreement with Foveon and are currently priced
    to stay at 100% production capacity.

    The reason the 10.3MP-equivalent SD-9 (3.43MP non-interpolated or
    13.7MP interpolated) sells $3000-$5000 below its fair market value is
    that Sigma is primarily a lens manufacturer, the biggest in the world,
    that makes their real money on the lens sales. It's the classic
    hardware dump.

    A little known bonus is that Sigma basically gives away the SA-7 (an
    excellent film SLR) with their two lens Zoom Set (24-70 and 70-300mm,
    or 40-540mm equiv) when purchased in the SA mount (about $30 more for
    the SA-7 when bundled). So SD-9 owners who buy the lens set basically
    get a free film SLR to use as a backup, wider angle too. The Zoom Set
    is an exceptional quality value. Thankfully for SD-9 owners, Sigma HF
    and EX glass provides the most bang for the buck in the lens market
    too.

    There is currently no other digital camera that rivals the SD-9's
    image quality, though the Canon 1Ds and Kodak 14n use capable sensors
    and are more feature packed. The SD-9 is the only digital camera in
    the world capable of producing a non-interpolated photographic.
    Non-interpolated SD-9 images, when printed at sizes smaller than 40"
    using a non-interpolated printer enjoy parity with 56mm medium format
    film (http://www.foveon.com/faq_technology.html#FAQ_tech_12).

    Bayer DSLRs all produce interpolated images (only 33% color data per
    output pixel, or less) and are currently limited to roughly 35mm film
    quality using the most expensive models ($4500 to $8000).
     
    George Preddy, Oct 23, 2003
    #7
  8. AlanB

    Gavin Cato Guest

    Ahhh, the megapixel infatuated.
     
    Gavin Cato, Oct 23, 2003
    #8
  9. AlanB

    Scott Condit Guest

    Apparently, Foveon doesn't realize that. Perhaps you should
    tell them.

    "Foveon is actively engaged with other major digital camera
    manufacturers. As partnerships are formed and can be made
    public, Foveon will provide more details."
    From http://www.foveon.com/faq_products.html#FAQ_prod_1


    S
     
    Scott Condit, Oct 23, 2003
    #9
  10. AlanB

    Chris Brown Guest

    Are you available for children's parties?
     
    Chris Brown, Oct 23, 2003
    #10
  11. AlanB

    Mark Roberts Guest

    It was reported that Sigma and Foveon had a one-year exclusive deal.
    IIRC, the Sigma camera has been on the market for almost a year now so
    if anyone else is going to bite, it should be soon. Foveon is definitely
    due to come up with a second-generation sensor soon (greater pixel count
    and larger physical chip size, one would hope). The 1.7x FOV crop and
    Sigma lens mount are the things really holding it back, rather than
    absolute pixel count, IMO.
    The first Foveon chip and the Sigma SD-9 represented a really good proof
    of concept - not something I would buy myself, but really quite
    remarkable for a first-generation product. If Foveon can continue both
    marketing and technological progress they will be on their way.
     
    Mark Roberts, Oct 23, 2003
    #11
  12. AlanB

    Mark Roberts Guest

    <g> "Annika II - The Sigma Version" Now playing at a newsgroup near you!
     
    Mark Roberts, Oct 23, 2003
    #12
  13. AlanB

    Mark Herring Guest

    Whoa there, George.....
    It is NOT 10Mp "effective"---it is a 3+Mpixel camera---according to
    what I have called the de-facto standard for specifying resolution.

    The de-facto standard--followed by just about everyone--is that the
    total number of spatial samples of the scene (pixels_ is the metric of
    resolution.

    Digression on interpolation:

    The most common usage of interpolation is applied to all images--BW or
    color--and is simply the process of re-sampling the data to provide
    finer steps in the tonal values---ie getting rid of the "jaggies" in
    coarsely sampled data.

    **color** interpolation is what must be done with data from a Bayer
    sensor to create RGB color for every pixel. Almost all today's
    digicams use Bayer---and therefor have lower color resolution that
    they do for monochrome.

    Foveon/Sigma claim their edge in bring the color resolution up to the
    same as the monochrome. but--at what price?

    To me, the value of increased color resolution is nil. One arguments
    commonly heard is that it reduces the color fringing that used to be
    associated with the Bayer architecture.
    BUT---look at data from a 3-4 Mpixel camera. Does color fringing
    bother you? I don't even notice it in my 2Mpix CanonA40

    For the original poster---see also the HUGE thread on foveon in this
    NG---maybe still running. Go to Google groups and search on "Foveon"

    -Mark
    *****************************************
    digital photos, more and better computers,
    and never enough time to do the projects.
    Private e-mail: Just say no to No
     
    Mark Herring, Oct 23, 2003
    #13
  14. AlanB

    Darrell Guest

    Darrell, Oct 23, 2003
    #14
  15. AlanB

    Crownfield Guest

    but comparing a three color sample with 3x 1 color samples is sort of
    silly. Talk about interpolation...
     
    Crownfield, Oct 23, 2003
    #15
  16. AlanB

    Argon3 Guest

    Well, i think that the design of the Foveon is basically an improvement on the
    other CCD's...but what existing company would admit that? Wasn't it Edison and
    Westinghouse that fought over whether household currrent should be AC or DC?
    Should Foveon go belly up (and I hope that they don't) watch and see the
    scramble to buy out the remains of the company in order to get the hands on the
    proprietary technology....whether to incorporate it in the buyer's camera line
    or to bury it where no one can ever get their hands on it again (think BP
    buying up the patents on an automobile engine that gets 100 MPG on a gallon of
    water!).
    Sigma and Foveon should do what every other manufacturer does: get some
    hot-shot famous photog to use their product and show it in an ad...but they
    aren't Nikon or Canon so they haven't.
    I'd love to get my hands on one of their Foveon cameras for a test spin. Maybe
    a consumer model (hint, hint) that used a smaller Foveon chip and was priced
    competitively might not be a bad idea.

    argon
     
    Argon3, Oct 23, 2003
    #16
  17. AlanB

    JackD Guest

    DC?

    Yeah, they fought bitterly. Turns out that Westinghouse was right and Edison
    was wrong.
    In the meantime Edison claimed that AC power was going to kill everyone and
    even invented the electric chair as a case in point.

    -Jack
     
    JackD, Oct 23, 2003
    #17
  18. AlanB

    Mark Herring Guest

    lots snipped....

    By default, the definition of "resolution" is the ability to resolve
    spatial detail---e.g. "can you distinguish two objects--or do they
    appear to be one?"

    Again, by default, the number of samples of an image (Megapixels)
    means the number of spatial samples---which in turn determines the
    resolution.

    Thus, using the definitions in most common use, the metric of
    resolution does not involve color.

    Another angle: Many people point out the color resolution is not
    nearly as important as broadband (white light--or luminance)
    resolution. To the extent that this is true, it is the basis for the
    development of the NTSC standard for color TV. (You guessed
    it---color TV has lower resolution in color than it does for
    luminance.)

    -Mark
    *****************************************
    digital photos, more and better computers,
    and never enough time to do the projects.
    Private e-mail: Just say no to No
     
    Mark Herring, Oct 24, 2003
    #18
  19. AlanB

    Crownfield Guest

    and this is the way for you,
    if you are trying to do common things and get common pictures.

    I do not want to see a great shot,
    and then realize that it is not common enough for the system to work.

    commonly, polaroid has been a great film,
    and 2,3,4 mp cameras are commonly accepted.

    I like large prints,
    and have made my share of 40x60 and 40x80 prints.

    MF and LF films do that, but they are not 'common'.
    polaroid is common, but can not do that.

    an appeal to the common man is a logical fallacy.

    you can see it.
    the position of colors does not match the position of subjects.
    in photography, that is a fatal error to me,
    but perhaps not to the common photo taker.
     
    Crownfield, Oct 24, 2003
    #19
  20. AlanB

    Azzz1588 Guest

    Yes, and Edison was only ever interested in DC, untill even he
    saw the light. As in that AC could be transmitted long distances,
    be stepped up and down easilly, with far less enegry loss than DC.

    Yet like our george here, he had to shown the cold hard facts quite
    a few times before he gave it a rest................
























    "Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
     
    Azzz1588, Oct 25, 2003
    #20
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