Filters and white balance?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by ArtKramr, May 2, 2004.

  1. ArtKramr

    ArtKramr Guest

    If I use a yellow filter (or any filter) won't the white balance detect it and
    cancel it out?


    Arthur Kramer
    344th BG 494th BS
    England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
    Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
    http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
     
    ArtKramr, May 2, 2004
    #1
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  2. ArtKramr

    Guest Guest

    It's a new digital world Art. All colored filters are obsolete.
    Everything is done in Photoshop now.
     
    Guest, May 2, 2004
    #2
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  3. Would you use a yellow filter with color film?

    If you want to do B&W, you can get much of what red, orange, yellow, green,
    and blue filters do to B&W film by shooting in color and using the channel
    mixer in Photoshop (or equivalent function in any other image editor).

    It's not _exactly_ the same, but pretty close.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, May 2, 2004
    #3
  4. ArtKramr

    ArtKramr Guest

    Subject: Re: Filters and white balance?

    Kodak sells a filter adapter for their 6490 cameras. Why do they do that if
    filters are no longer useful?


    Arthur Kramer
    344th BG 494th BS
    England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
    Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
    http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
     
    ArtKramr, May 2, 2004
    #4
  5. ArtKramr

    ArtKramr Guest

    Subject: Re: Filters and white balance?
    Kodak offers a filter adapter for their 6490 cameras. Why if filters are no
    longer used or useful and the white balance cancels it out?


    Arthur Kramer
    344th BG 494th BS
    England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
    Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
    http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
     
    ArtKramr, May 2, 2004
    #5
  6. ArtKramr

    Marli Guest

    The poster mentioed coloured filters. Their are still polarizers and other
    effects filters that photoshop cant do.
     
    Marli, May 2, 2004
    #6
  7. ArtKramr

    Bill Hilton Guest

    From: (ArtKramr)
    Some of the white balance sensors don't read TTL so the filter wouldn't be
    noticed.

    One thing I've noticed with a 10D is that if you try to warm the scene
    digitally the green channel is left alone, the red channel is pushed to the
    right and can clip and the blue channel is shoved to the left and almost always
    clips. This is not good. So shooting with the white balance set to daylight
    and adding a warming filter if the color temp is too high is actually a good
    idea, I think better than doing it artificially with digital settings that just
    shove channels around. This is probably why Kodak sells a filter adapter for
    the camera you mention.

    I've screwed around with the various white balance settings, mainly to keep
    aspens yellow at 8,000 - 11,000 ft in low contrast light (often get readings of
    over 10,000 Kelvin with my Gossen color meter in these situations) and to keep
    neutrals neutral in Mexico at 5,000 - 7,000 ft in the shade. The most accurate
    way of setting white balance for the camera I used was to shoot a white sheet
    of paper (or a grey card) and use this as the custom WB. YMMV depending on the
    camera used.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, May 2, 2004
    #7
  8. ArtKramr

    Robertwgross Guest

    Kodak is motivated to sell things that are profitable, not necessarily to sell
    things that are useful. Besides, filter adapters can hold filters that are not
    color-related.

    ---Bob Gross---
     
    Robertwgross, May 2, 2004
    #8
  9. ArtKramr

    dslr Guest

    Some filters can still be useful or cannot be properly replicated in
    Photoshop - such as Neutral Density Grads and Polarisers.
     
    dslr, May 2, 2004
    #9
  10. ArtKramr

    Boris Harss Guest

    Hi!
    Depending on the method to determine "white" (TTL vs external sensor),
    yes, the auto white balance would appriximately cancel the filter as far
    as it can. So, effectively, you just get inferior image quality. If you
    switch of the auto white ballance, the effect should be gone, as you
    surely supect.

    People answered to the question, if it was usefull to use a colored
    filter. I'd say, I can be, however not as commonly as in traditional B/W
    photography.

    Example: Assume, you later want to have a B/W image as shot with a red
    filter. This means: dark skies, light trees, light skin, ... . By
    putting a color filter on, you're reducing a potentially dominat color
    (blue sky) on the light meter, so you will have a longer exposer time /
    larger aperture and, thus, better usage of the dynamic range for the
    other colors. This stores mor information in your raw material, you will
    have more lattitude for (local) "exposure" correction and finally get a
    higher quality file. Surely, you also can get yourseft in trouble, if
    the light meter just reads total intensity. So be sure to look at a
    histogram for the, in the example, red channel, after taking a test shoot.

    Cheers,
    B.
     
    Boris Harss, May 2, 2004
    #10
  11. ArtKramr

    ArtKramr Guest

    Subject: Re: Filters and white balance?
    Interesting. BUT IF I put a yellow filter on my camera would the white balance
    cancel it out?


    Arthur Kramer
    344th BG 494th BS
    England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
    Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
    http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
     
    ArtKramr, May 2, 2004
    #11
  12. ArtKramr

    ArtKramr Guest

    Subject: Re: Filters and white balance?

    Thank you for your clear, concise answer to my question. I appreciate it..I am
    on a learning curve from film to digital. And a steep curve it is.


    Arthur Kramer
    344th BG 494th BS
    England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
    Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
    http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
     
    ArtKramr, May 2, 2004
    #12
  13. If it's really yellow and doesn't pass any blue, the white balance won't be
    able to. If it's pale yellow and passes blue, then you'll have a noisy blue
    channel.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, May 2, 2004
    #13
  14. ArtKramr

    Jim Townsend Guest

    No, white balance won't cancel out colored filters. If you use one,
    the image will have a colored cast just like film.
     
    Jim Townsend, May 2, 2004
    #14
  15. You should probably put the camera into a sutable pre-programmed white
    balance mode, ie flash/daylight/etc, or set a manual white balance
    prior to using the filter... and not let the camera guess as it will
    most likely get it wrong.

    A lot of the posters have mentioned that Photoshop (or other) product
    can do most of the effects/colour filtering, and I would have gone
    along with this in the past till I did my most recient shoot.

    I had never thought to use a different brolly on my strobes apart from
    the silver, but this time I thought I'd do something different and use
    a gold brolly on the main light, and just bounce the other strobe of
    the wall and top edge of the cieling behind me to act as the fill....
    It makes post processing so much easier as all I had to do was decode
    the raw files using "flash" as the white balance, and ended up with a
    lovely warm set of photos looking as tho they were shot with warm
    sunlight, far easier than post processing 200 photos in Photoshop
     
    Jonathan Wilson, May 2, 2004
    #15
  16. ArtKramr

    Boris Harss Guest

    Hi!
    Well, if you built a filter that passed only the wavelenght of, say
    "middle-yellow", it would allow (alomst) no light through since you cut
    a tiny (actually: infiniteely thin) slice out of a contioues spectrum.
    So, every photographic yellow filter passes all colors arround "middle
    yellow", and filters other colors to a smaller or larger degree. On the
    other side, the RGB-filters on your camera CCD do the same, so even a
    monochromatic light source would not necessarely produce a 100% clean
    one-channel picture. Finally, you can build your color space arround
    Red-Green-Blue or more arround Red-Yellow-Blue, so there is annother
    degree of freedom to take into account.

    Make an experiment! ;-))
    That is surely true.

    Cheers,
    B.
     
    Boris Harss, May 2, 2004
    #16
  17. ArtKramr

    Bill Hilton Guest

    I would phrase this differently ... if you set your camera white balance to
    "daylight" then I agree with Jim since film is color balanced for daylight
    (except for a few films balanced for 3200 and 3400 Kelvin), BUT if you set the
    camera white balance to tungsten or cloudy or flourescent (or whatever) then
    the filter and the in-camera color change interaction will not look "just like
    film", you'll get some strange combinations, depending on the white balance
    setting used.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, May 2, 2004
    #17
  18. ArtKramr

    Jim Townsend Guest

    Yes.. It's an awkward parallel.. What I meant to say is a colored filter
    will leave a colored cast.. The white balance won't eliminate it.

    Of course film doesn't have a white balance setting, so the results will
    be different than film.
     
    Jim Townsend, May 2, 2004
    #18
  19. ArtKramr

    Bill Hilton Guest

    From: Jim Townsend
    Film does indeed have a white balance setting, usually "daylight" or 5500-6000
    Kelvin, though a few speciality films used mainly with tungsten lights in
    studio settings have a white balance of 3200 or 3400 Kelvin.
    Setting the digital camera white balance to 'daylight' gives similar results to
    using 5500-6000 Kelvin color films.
     
    Bill Hilton, May 2, 2004
    #19
  20. Filters whose primary effect isn't just changing the color still apply
    -- polarizers, neutral density (including graduated), softeners of
    various types, "effects" filters (stars and such) would all still do
    their thing. You also use that kind of adapter to put on auxiliary
    closeup, wideange, and telephoto lenses.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, May 2, 2004
    #20
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