Farm scale network links: advice

Discussion in 'Home Networking' started by Simon Brooke, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. Simon Brooke

    alexd Guest

    Meanwhile, at the uk.comp.os.linux Job Justification Hearings, Simon Brooke
    chose the tried and tested strategy of:
    You don't mention what your wireless clients are. Given how cheap access
    points are [eg Ubiquiti do outdoor APs from about £40, which run Linux and
    they even give you an SDK for customising the firmware with] you might be
    better off using two APs with directional antennae on to point where you
    need coverage.
    If you're not sure it's probably easier to get it pre-terminated. If you're
    feeling adventurous, backhaul the APs with 5GHz.
    alexd, Jan 12, 2011
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  2. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:51:35 -0600
    I think in practice it will be mostly as you say west side traffic
    using the link. The west side stuff will be a lot of clients doing
    things like twittering and emailing one or two weeks a year (there's a
    music festival on adjoining land and we will be renting out a field as
    camp site, ideally with wifi), and two or three clients doing mostly
    pull stuff (web, mail) for the rest of the year. Yes, I know we won't
    really have the backhaul for the big weeks, but that's another issue.

    For the most part, all clients will be talking to servers off site.
    Yes, makes sense.
    In my experience you never really know what traffic will look like
    before people start using the thing. And someone is bound to start
    doing multiplayer shoot-em-up games or something completely daft.

    The problem with running fibre up to the ridge (and I'm not ruling it
    out) is that there's a lot of bare rock up there and trenching would be
    a major problem, but getting it high enough to not get damaged by
    animals would also be a problem. So one pole with a wind turbine and a
    couple of boxes looks like a very appealing idea. But I could run fibre
    along the existing fence line to where that crosses the ridge, and put
    a pole there.

    Many thanks again for all your help!

    -- :: PGP public key on home page

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    Simon Brooke, Jan 12, 2011
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  3. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:49:55 -0600
    Thanks, that's a problem that had not occurred to me!

    -- :: PGP public key on home page

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    Simon Brooke, Jan 12, 2011
  4. Simon Brooke

    Baron Guest

    Moe Trin Inscribed thus:
    I would concur. I've seen people thrown on their back from induced
    voltages in long lines.
    The solar panel could be a very good solution for remote power. A
    caravan solar charging panel SLA battery and DC-DC inverter. My
    18"x12" panel produces 600ma @ 14v in full sunlight.
    Baron, Jan 12, 2011
  5. Simon Brooke brought next idea :
    Don't be fooled by the 'easy to construct', if you want good range and
    good signal. I did some experiments in crossing a built up area with
    lots of other Wifi signals and ended up building a pair of precision
    Yagi antennas - well worth the time and effort to get a reliable
    Harry Bloomfield, Jan 13, 2011
  6. Simon Brooke

    Moe Trin Guest

    On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.internet.wireless, in article
    OK - that's relatively trivial then. A minor concern would be routing
    related if there was substantial traffic between East and West sides.
    This way, you can probably put each side on separate networks.
    Of course - and the whining if things are complicated.
    That's the usual "rock and a hard place" more accurately than normal.
    Rock makes trenching difficult, and usually requires a sand fill to
    reduce damage. But fiber is tender, which is why you would find it
    highly desirable to put the fiber in a conduit/pipe of some kind. If
    you're going to put the fiber above ground, the conduit/pipe becomes
    mandatory. I wouldn't try to run it via catenary, as fiber isn't
    meant to be continually flexed (as would happen in the wind).
    The fiber still needs the protection - perhaps from the animals (for
    example cattle itching themselves on the fence), but also from the
    people climbing over the fence, etc., in addition to the wind.

    Old guy
    Moe Trin, Jan 13, 2011
  7. Simon Brooke

    Baron Guest

    Harry Bloomfield Inscribed thus:
    For point to point I couldn't agree more !
    Baron, Jan 13, 2011
  8. Simon Brooke

    Baron Guest

    Moe Trin Inscribed thus:
    Around 23/24 years ago I installed a 24 fiber link between two buildings
    200 feet apart. It was 24 fibers in a Vaseline filled polyester inner
    with a tough vinyl outer sheath. It was suspended on a steel catenary
    anchored at both ends to welded steel brackets rawlbolted into corner
    brickwork of the buildings.

    It cost a small fortune just to have the terminators fitted on the
    ends ! The whole thing was designed to allow a pair of mainframes to
    talk to each other and couple the networks between the two buildings.

    Its still there to this day, and as far as I am aware still in use.
    Baron, Jan 13, 2011
  9. Simon Brooke

    Stephen Guest

    On Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:31:30 -0600,
    shame about all those networks built on the overhead power pylons in
    the last 20 years then :)

    Seriously though, the UK National Grid Co used a special machine to
    crawl along the top earth wire on the pylons and leave a helical coil
    of fibre behind - it was initially used for telemetry and
    teleprotection of the power system.

    Then spare cores were used to roll out a national UK fibre backbone 15
    to 20 years ago

    This is now so common that a power company can buy an earth wire with
    embedded fibre cores off the shelf.
    Stephen, Jan 14, 2011
  10. Simon Brooke

    Stuart Guest

    Outfit was Energis, part of N.G., and the system was also used to distribute
    BBC TV programs round the country. Gave B.T. a big kick up the *****, they
    thought the BBC was a cash cow they could go on milking with higher and
    higher prices for programme distribution for ever :)
    Stuart, Jan 14, 2011
  11. Simon Brooke

    Moe Trin Guest

    On Fri, 14 Jan 2011, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.internet.wireless, in article
    Context - context! I rather doubt that Simon has the overhead power
    pylons, never mind the kit and proper fiber to put up there ;-)
    That's unfair to the back-hoes of the world. Those earth wires are
    substantially larger than the average messenger wire supplied with
    fiber, and ``should'' be less susceptible to flex damage. Incidentally
    the same technique is used here on the other side of the pond though
    I've read it's less common than direct burial.
    I rather doubt the supplier is going to sell that in 100 meter lengths
    that are pre-terminated at a price the retail customer is willing to
    pay. I'm not in the trade, but most of the fiber links I hear of here
    are underground whenever practical. Some of this is due to weather
    conditions (at least once a year, we can have a thunderstorm somewhere
    in the valley with microbursts that will literally blow power poles
    over or snap them off at ground level, while colder climes can get
    pretty severe icing), and some it due to getting the poles out of
    sight, or out of the way of our very careful drivers. That's not the
    only hazard - over the past 6 years or so, the West coast had major
    network problems because of mud-slides and "forest fires" (more
    accurately, "wild-fires") breaking the coastal links (copper and fiber)
    between Los Angeles and San Francisco.

    Old guy
    Moe Trin, Jan 15, 2011
  12. Simon Brooke

    Daniel James Guest

    You unspeakably annoying person!

    I can't see any way that it was appropriate to set a followup for this
    (which is more about networking than it is about linux) and it is very
    poor manners to set one without announcing the fact.

    I now have three or more orphaned threadlets in my newsreader's folder
    for ucol quite separate from the main thread in uch-n.

    Kindly desist.

    Daniel James, Jan 15, 2011
  13. Simon Brooke

    Baron Guest

    Daniel James Inscribed thus:
    Apologies. I don't recall setting or changing a follow up.
    Baron, Jan 15, 2011
  14. Simon Brooke

    Daniel James Guest

    Well, you did ... on three separate posts in this thread ... four now!

    If it was accidental, well, no problem ... but I think you might want
    to look into how it happened as you've just done it again. Maybe KNode
    is doing it without telling you?


    Note: Followup ignored.
    (Sorry, should have said that last time, too).
    Daniel James, Jan 16, 2011
  15. Simon Brooke

    Baron Guest

    Daniel James Inscribed thus:
    Sorry Guys, I really don't understand what is going on. Here is a dump
    of the this post.

    From: Daniel James <>
    Newsgroups: uk.comp.os.linux,uk.comp.home-networking
    Subject: Re: Farm scale network links: advice
    Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 14:13:00 -0000
    Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
    Lines: 16
    Message-ID: <>
    References: <[email protected]>
    <> <[email protected]>
    <[email protected]>
    Mime-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    logging-data="3888"; mail-complaints-to="";
    X-Newsreader: Virtual Access Open Source
    Cancel-Lock: sha1:kUuPoxli2NfTHoMZidRhkcPEa8Q=
    Xref: uk.comp.os.linux:6730

    So if anything has changed it should show !
    Baron, Jan 16, 2011
  16. Simon Brooke

    Moe Trin Guest

    [Followup-To: header ignored]

    On Sun, 16 Jan 2011000, in the Usenet newsgroup uk.comp.os.linux, in article
    It's a well documented fault in KNode - it was first reported in 2004,
    and apparently there was/is a bug report filed there, but the app
    authors are ignoring the complaint. Perhaps they feel it's a feature.
    and it you look, there is no 'Followup-To:' header. But if you look at
    what you posted:

    From: Baron <>
    Newsgroups: uk.comp.os.linux,uk.comp.home-networking
    Subject: Re: Farm scale network links: advice
    Followup-To: uk.comp.os.linux

    you see that KNode is b0rken and automatically sets a 'Followup-To:'
    header to the first newsgroup listed in the 'Newsgroups:' header. This
    setting should be done by the _poster_ rather than the newsreader (see
    RFC5536 Section 3.2.6 first sentence). This was explicitly mentioned in
    RFC1849 (the former "son-of-1036) in section 6.1:

    Although it is generally desirable to limit followups to the smallest
    reasonable set of newsgroups, especially when the precursor was
    cross-posted widely, posting agents SHOULD NOT supply a Followup-To
    header except at the poster's explicit request.

    NOTE: In particular, it is incorrect for the posting agent to
    assume that followups to a cross-posted article should be directed
    to the first newsgroup only. Trimming the list of newsgroups
    should be the poster's decision, not the posting agent's.

    Because the KNode authors are intentionally ignoring this bug, you want
    to be aware of it, and manually remove the 'Followup-To:' header from
    your posts if the person you're replying to cross-posted (posting to
    more than one group by including a list in the 'Newsgroups' header)
    and they didn't set a 'Followup-To:' header.

    Old guy
    Moe Trin, Jan 17, 2011
  17. Simon Brooke

    Bernard Peek Guest

    Which is also present in the latest release of Thunderbird.
    Bernard Peek, Jan 17, 2011
  18. Simon Brooke

    Jim Price Guest

    Are you sure about that? I guess I'll find out by posting this reply to
    your message. It isn't showing a follow-up in the headers as I type.
    Jim Price, Jan 17, 2011
  19. Simon Brooke

    Baron Guest

    Moe Trin Inscribed thus:
    Hi Moe,
    Thank you for that information. I had absolutely no idea what was
    happening. Now that you have explained why and where to look, I can
    see the reason.

    I'm sorry that people got upset, but I now understand the cause.
    I've removed the "Followup-To" on this post and will check it when it
    comes back.
    Baron, Jan 17, 2011
  20. Simon Brooke

    Baron Guest

    Jim Price Inscribed thus:
    Hi Jim,
    There isn't any followup line in the message from you, but Knode
    certainly puts one in. As Moe said, I've manually deleted it.
    Baron, Jan 17, 2011
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