Evil Apple not as ruthless as Adobe, but close

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest


    11 August 2011 Last updated at 19:02 ET
    When to pull the plug on old software
    Iain Mackenzie By Iain Mackenzie Technology reporter, BBC News

    The evolution of digital technology can be ruthless in its speed.

    Not only does it give birth at a frightening rate; it has a nasty
    habit of killing its elderly relatives.

    Take the latest release of Apple's OS X operating system - Lion. This
    £21 Mac makeover adds more than 250 new features including an iPad-
    style app interface, wireless file sharing and a hugely expanded
    lexicon of finger-gnarling multi-touch gestures.

    But it removes Rosetta, the handy little code translation engine that
    enabled newer Intel-powered computers to run programs written for
    Apple's older machines, which were built around Motorola/IBM PowerPC

    The result: Many owners who didn't scour the small print have found
    themselves unable to use some of their software.

    John Silk, a London-based PR consultant and blogger, considers himself
    to be fairly tech-savvy. Yet he fell victim to Lion.

    "When I tried to launch Word, Excel or Photoshop, I just got a dialog
    box saying the programs weren't supported," said Mr Silk.

    His versions of Microsoft Office and Adobe's image editing program
    were a few years old, but still more than adequate for producing basic
    documents and simple photo tinkering.

    "Lion might be £21, but it's going to cost me almost £300 more to get
    back to where I was," he said.

    Apple switched to Intel processors in 2006, meaning newer software had
    to be written for a completely different machine architecture.

    This massive technical change in direction could have been jarring but
    Rosetta cushioned the blow - granting users a few more precious years
    in which to say their goodbyes.

    Yet the end, when it came, still felt sudden and for some users,

    Deciding when to euthanise your own or other people's products in the
    name of progress is a challenge faced by all computer companies.

    It is a difficult balance - make the cut too early and you risk
    irritating customers who feel cheated that their investment is now
    digital junk, hang on too long and your shiny new system is hobbled by
    the need to accommodate ancient relics.

    One manufacturer that knows the perils of legacy support more than
    most is Microsoft. Its 10-year-old Windows XP remains the world's most
    popular operating system even though official support has now been
    Lessons from history

    The company has gone to great lengths to ensure that applications
    designed for XP will still work in Windows 7, including the option to
    run a virtual XP environment within the new OS.

    However, such lessons have been hard learned. Microsoft's widely
    pilloried Vista operating system rendered many pieces of hardware
    effectively useless because manufacturers were not adequately primed
    to create new drivers, or were unwilling to participate in the costly
    driver certification programme.

    "It is fair to say that we learnt a great deal from the Windows Vista
    change," said Ian Moulster, a product manager at Microsoft UK.

    "It was a big jump to Vista from XP. We wanted to make sure [users]
    didn't have the same pain."

    Microsoft has no hard-and-fast rule for how long it will endeavour to
    ensure compatibility between its current systems and legacy software.

    But, Mr Moulster explained, products that work closely with the core
    functions of the operating system, such as anti virus and disc
    management applications, are more susceptible to being left behind

    Getting caught on the wrong side of enforced obsolescence can be
    annoying and costly for the home user. For businesses, the stakes are
    potentially much higher.

    Finding that a key piece of software, such as a payroll or accounting
    package suddenly no longer works after an upgrade could bring
    operations to a grinding halt.

    Even if an IT setup appears to be doing its job perfectly well in its
    current incarnation, external pressures such as changing security
    threats or expiring support systems make modernisation essential.
    No explicit warnings

    "The biggest problem today is technologies like Cobol which have not
    been supported for a long time. People that knew these technologies
    don't know them any more or they are dying or retiring," said Maurice
    Aroesti, chief executive of OCS Consulting.

    "Also in the business scenario, regulation means that you can't live
    with unsupported software, even though it might work. You've got all
    the regulatory control, risk management, etc."

    Software vendors say that most customers understand the need to make
    changes and are usually happy about it, as long as they are kept well
    informed and given plenty of advance warning.

    Surprises would be bad for business, according to Ian Tufts, head of
    R&D in the small business division at Sage, which provides a range of
    business management applications to six million customers globally.

    "We have a policy and formal procedure for dealing with the
    communication of [obsolescence] with our customers and it generally
    tends to be around about two years before we would withdraw support,"
    he said.

    Sage also supports its packages for at least five generations prior to
    the current version, ensuring that users know what is coming well in

    Where Apple incurred the wrath of some users was, perhaps, not the
    withdrawal of Rosetta, but the fact that it happened in such a low-key

    For those downloading the Lion update, there were no explicit
    Innovations could help

    "There's no physical reason why it couldn't have included Rosetta in
    Lion, except Apple decided it's time to draw a line and people need to
    move on," said James Holland, a technology writer for the website

    While he appreciates the company's drive to innovate, Mr Holland
    believes that it could have done a better job flagging up the Rosetta

    "Windows PCs can literally be cobbled together by a man in a shed so
    Microsoft has a job on their hands catering for all the variants," he

    "Apple is lucky in that it makes the hardware and the software. It
    should therefore be able to see where the likely holes are."

    Ironically, it is possible that new innovations could help mitigate
    the problem of upgrade obsolescence in future.

    Cloud-based software should, theoretically, be less susceptible to
    changes to operating systems or other installed software components.

    Because applications such as Google Docs are platform neutral, their
    functionality is not affected by the base OS or other local factors,
    barring the odd web browser compatibility issue.

    And the sophistication of cloud computing is quickly progressing
    beyond word processors and spreadsheets.

    Adobe now offers a web-based version of its Photoshop Express image
    editor, containing many of the most commonly used application

    Faster internet connections and more powerful processors - both in
    data centres and home computers - will open the possibility of high-
    end applications, such as video editing, being run in the same way.

    For business too, the intermeshing of hardware, OS and software should
    become less of an issue.

    "When you take that kind of approach it really decouples the
    application from the operating system and mitigates a lot of those
    problems that customers often have when those sort of things are
    intertwined," said Patrick Irwin, a product manager at Citrix.

    However, cloud computing may not end all upgrade compatibility

    The ability to seamlessly push out new versions of an application,
    without the user even needing to update is fine for free software such
    as Google's app suite, or for open source platforms.

    But business is business, and planned obsolescence serves another
    purpose. It drives customer spending.

    Even if the technical hurdles are overcome, software makers will want
    to retain the ultimate sanction for reluctant upgraders who refuse to
    reach into their wallets.

    Apple was contacted and given the opportunity to take part in this
    article, but did not respond.
    RichA, Aug 12, 2011
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  2. []

    ... and did you have permission for this verbatim copy of BBC material?
    David J Taylor, Aug 12, 2011
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  3. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    How about comparing that to windows 7...
    upgrade cost ????
    So what have MS done ...
    Here we have 16 of these boards

    This year we upgraded from XP to W7 and now these boards don;t work
    anymore after just 1 years use.
    Maybe if somneone had read teh small print perhaps...
    Well actually only a few months teaching use, then we 'upgraded' so
    what we had to do was find old PCs install XP
    and have two PCs and keyboards per station on the bench just because
    Windows 7 can;t run last years software.

    Why don;t MS create their own Rosetta type soloution .
    Small print, you have software from 2006 and naturally expect a
    complete system change
    to not affect anything.
    But then again there's a reason why system profiler list apps as
    Intel, PPC or both .
    If you're savvy you should at least know the basics.
    That was a warning when Apple went to intel in 2005.
    There have been a few systen updates since then
    August 28, 2009: Apple ships Mac OS X 10.6 "Snow Leopard," which is
    the first OS X version that does not support the PowerPC family
    BiUt rosetta still allows users to run ppc aplications, I have run CS2
    on Snow Leopard.

    All that proves is that he isn;t a savvy as he thought.
    Did he not consider checking Word to see if it ran on lion
    and Photoshop too, it's now 5 years since the first warning over PPC
    old apps not running on
    future Apple systems.

    I bet he didn;t read the read_mes or the ULA either.

    see southpark iCentihumanipad ;-)

    Maybe that's because MS or adobe haven't issued updates.
    Why is it Apples Job (pun intented) to make 5 year old software
    compatable with the lasted Apple OS.

    Yep, here we havae a very old Mac capable of doing that an Old G3
    desktop runing OS9
    and using macdraw II and macdraft because we can;t find a PC
    equalalant that;'s anywhere near as easy to use
    as 15 year old Mac stuff.
    So why does he feel the need to upgrade to lion anyway if he only has
    PPC software,
    what will it do for him other than have to spend £300 on software.
    Yep and Adobe and MS have both done that in the last 5 years if a
    users doen;t wish
    to update or upgrade that's up to them.

    5 precious years, so how many years should it be.
    I still have a working Macplus from 1988 should I insist that lion
    should run on that,
    all it has is an internal 1.4MB floppy, I'm not sure OS X at 4+GB
    would work.
    And word 3.0 won't work on my iMac running Leopard let alone Lion !!!
    Apple charge £21 to upgrade how much are adobe and MS charging ?
    Does he know he doesn;t have to update to Lion ?

    And users and I fully agree, but it;'s not like a few months to decide
    it's been 5 years.
    What PS is he running v3 ?
    Yep I agree, so let the users decide withinn reason,
    but if Moses can;t contect his tablets of 10 commandments to a
    connection who should update thier kit ;-)

    But they realsed W7 and our under a year old software doesn;t work on
    So why don;t MS release a 'rosetta' so windose users also get a
    5 years to update ?

    Tied that it didn;t work, it's something to do with USB emulation....
    Thats; why APple have SDKs and WWDC to make things clear to software
    Vista was so problomatic that most users skipped it.
    So does Apple.
    Yes but with Aple those apps are written by Apple and are updated
    withy the system updates.
    education is even higher as student expectations or that we are
    running the lastest
    rather than the most compatable.
    Maybe people shouldn't expect old programs to run on the latest
    and vica versa. i.e if you're truelly savvy you check before

    5 years wasn;t bad for a warning.
    So it;s Sages job to do the updating not MS so why is it Apple job to
    old versions of word and PS work under their new OS.

    If MS bring out W8 is it up to MS to make sure3 sages software runs
    under it or is it up to
    Sage to make sure their products run under the new OS.

    I didn;t upgrade beyond Leopard for that very reason.
    It wasn't an update it was an UPGRADE quite different.
    it would be nice if any system windows or PC could interigate every
    program Aplications or utility
    and tell the users whether it will work or not before installing or
    during install....
    But that might rely on companies supplying details to Apple first
    rather than last.
    Of course Apple do do this via system profiler but it's not full proof
    and certainly not idiot proof.
    I've run things under rosetta and it can be pretty slow, you'd normly
    get better results
    from using more upto date applications.
    If I do save in CS2 sometimes the file gets deletete or corrupted ao I
    use save as.....
    and that's OK. But should I insist that Lion down dates it;'self for
    CS2 or should I
    go for CS5.5 ?
    Well I've chosen Aperature, but still have CS2 installed.
    Yes and that in itself causes many problems.
    That is NOT luck that's how it started and remains.
    Which is also why Aple haven't yet allowed any PC to have OS X
    installed on it.
    I noticed a migratioon assistance update from Apple last night.

    Does MS have such a thing.
    Some 32 bit virus utilities on teh PC won;t run on 64 bit PCs .
    That's true, but google docs isn;t exactly compatable with Excel is
    I wouldn;t want a computer to need a net connection if I wanted to
    write a letter or update a spreadsheet.
    Not quite as quick local systems though.
    The way of the iPad tpye device yes, Apple are leading on the hardware
    Yep been hearing that for years, from the days I installed PAD line at
    300/1200 baud.
    In them days they were called mini computers with dump terminals.
    Then we had proper personaly computers (PPC) ;-)
    Then there was X windows idea on dump terminals.
    Now we have very clever computers linked up to the web so we can write
    emails in Word.
    We have inteligent terminals with dump users.

    The main problem with that isn you also can;t leave old users behind,
    so you're cloud app
    can't be as good as Word or excel especfailly for those with security
    Then there's truelly relible web access which isnl;t really the case
    as yet.
    At the start of last week 2nd august I lost all connection to
    newsgroups unilt 8/9th
    Imagine keeping patient details on googledocs and not being able to
    access them for miniutes or hours or days.
    What abotu8 backups of such data.

    Nothing willl other than not to update.
    If people didn;t update the chances are their computers wouldn't
    start' slowing down'

    Do you know why computers 'slow down' with time

    Of course the main thing is why update/upgrade anyway....
    What was in Lion that made the users want to upgrade ?
    They were obviously happy with Word Excel and PS as it was why spoil
    If it ain;t broke don;t try fixing it.

    yes to right......
    Isn;t that why MS or adobe refuse to provide updates for Lion for
    theirn old software ?
    Why is it apples job to ensure 5 year old 3rd party software works.
    withy the lastes kit .
    Apple rarely do, why wasn't Adobe or microsoft contacted as it was
    their programs which
    didn't work.
    Whisky-dave, Aug 12, 2011
  4. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    Link please?
    PeterN, Aug 12, 2011
  5. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    We need a link to determine if indeed it is verbatim.
    PeterN, Aug 12, 2011
  6. Peter, it's here:


    If not verbatim, it's far more than the "extract" normally allowed for

    David J Taylor, Aug 12, 2011
  7. []
    Why didn't someone check for compatibility /before/ upgrading?
    Have you tried the XP mode in Windows-7? It allowed a USB webcam to work
    here, when the manufacturer hadn't produced suitable Windows-7 drivers.

    David J Taylor, Aug 12, 2011
  8. RichA

    Martin Brown Guest


    I didn't spot any differences, but I can't think that the BBC would be
    inclined to sue a halfwitted Canute troll for copyright infringement.
    They might take issue with his incendiary changed headline though.

    It was originally titled "When to pull the plug on old software".

    It does seem surprising that they didn't warn users who wanted to
    upgrade and had older apps that Leo the Lion lacked Rosetta capability.

    Martin Brown
    Martin Brown, Aug 12, 2011
  9. RichA

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Blah, blah, blah. The world won't spend large amounts of money to
    make rich happy. Boo hoo.
    Ray Fischer, Aug 12, 2011
  10. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    the change of title is rather inflammatory.
    It seems to me that before upgrading the OS the user has a
    responsibility to test and see what effect the change has on current
    applications. Even with one PC I can create a test partition.

    I don't know if you can do that on a MAC.
    PeterN, Aug 12, 2011
  11. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    thanks. His comment seems to have covered the major points. But, as I
    said earlier, He did change the caption.
    PeterN, Aug 12, 2011
  12. RichA

    John A. Guest

    XP mode didn't work?

    John A., Aug 12, 2011
  13. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    You mean why didn;t someone writing windows 7 check....
    could, that be the same reason why Lion writers never checked .....

    But the 'directive' here was to upgrade all PCs to W7 for
    compatability .

    Lucky them then, but the DSP boards can't be run under emulation.
    Presently we are waiting for spectrum digital; to write software for
    Whisky-dave, Aug 15, 2011
  14. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    Can you, I've never seen it done to test compatability of software.

    It's a Mac :)
    I doubt it'd be very informative, it'd be quicker to look at the apps
    to see if they were PPC or Intel.
    Whisky-dave, Aug 15, 2011
  15. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    I would too but unfortunalty these are multipurpose teaching PCs 24 of
    we upgraded to be compatablem with other uses includiing

    And we wanted to go 64 bit, can't do that with XP.
    Hopefully it'll be sorted by october else we'll resurect some old XP
    PCs for this year
    like we did last year, maybe next year too.
    Whisky-dave, Aug 15, 2011
  16. RichA

    John A. Guest

    I don't know what your needs are, but did you google 'XP 64'? There
    are several places carrying it on shopping search.
    John A., Aug 15, 2011
  17. Good practice would be to check first, with a test PC running the new OS,
    and inform those "directing" what the consequences of their actions would
    How do you know without even trying it? Have the vendors confirmed that
    XP mode doesn't work? I was rather surprised when USB drivers worked. It
    may be worth a few minutes to check.

    David J Taylor, Aug 15, 2011
  18. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    We don;t really want to be seen running XP when everyone else is
    running W7, we never really went to vista
    because of problems, then they were or are problems with virus
    checkers and all sorts of other problems
    of 3rd party software with XP 64, we really need to be compatable
    across the board, we can;'t just dodge these things.
    Other software such as microwave office and some procducts that use
    licence servers.
    Whisky-dave, Aug 15, 2011
  19. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    You really think anyones going to Listen, these directives come from
    We need to upgrade our 'game' now we're charging £9,000 PA.
    We can;t keep running on XP with 2-3GHz pentiums .
    we've installed new PCs 3.3GHz, 8GB RAM 1 TB drives.

    Because the systems people have tried it, some reseacher students have
    tried it and Spectrum digital say it doesn't work
    in emulation, something to do with emulating USB under code composer
    studio software, they advise updrading to the new version 3.2 when
    it's released.

    But just like the OP said why are we expected to check our software
    when upgrading from XP to W7
    It seems that some think if you buy Lion it is up to Apple to check
    for compatability with old software
    so why isn't it up to MS to check our software ?
    Whisky-dave, Aug 15, 2011
  20. []
    If they are not informed of potential problems, they cannot make an
    informed decision. If they /are/ informed and still decide against your
    advice, then I feel they are responsible for picking up the pieces and
    funding any extra work required.
    OK, but that's not the impression you gave earlier.
    Why should you need to check lenses when you buy a new camera? With
    respect, going from Windows XP to Windows-7 is a step of nearly ten years,
    and Microsoft do provide plenty of advice on the issues to be investigated
    and tools for compatibility checking.


    As far as I know, Apple would have done something similar when moving from
    PowerPC to Intel architecture, and Lion


    Interesting that the Apple information is from a 3rd-party (Google search:
    Lion compatibility) whereas the Microsoft information is direct from the
    company (Google search: Windows-7 compatibility).

    David J Taylor, Aug 15, 2011
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