CSM: Watch where you point that camera

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mxsmanic, May 23, 2005.

  1. I question it. But, upon investigation, I usually find that they exhibit
    exactly the kind of thinking that I know to be "liberal". That is to say,
    they do like more taxes. They do want gun control. They do like the
    motorcycle helmet law. They do like all the unenforceable laws that I hate.
    They say, "Well, if you haven't committed a crime, then why would you care
    if you are searched without probable cause?" They don't understand the
    constitution, and they disagree with me right down the line on just about
    everything. If they don't, then I ask, "Why do you call yourself a
    liberal? - Many of your beliefs are not liberal." And they say, "Oh......I
    thought I was a liberal." IOW, they have a different definition of liberal
    than I do, so I reclassify them to be not liberal. After all, I can't change
    what they want to call themselves. But I can still think of the ones who
    have what I call liberal values, as liberals, regardless of what they want
    to call themselves. The idea that the government should take my money away
    from me and give it to the poor, simply because I have it, for example, is
    what I call a liberal idea. Assuming that I must have stolen it, simply
    because I have it, is a typically liberal idea. Ralph Nader (for example)
    wants to do this, and he is a professed liberal. If you don't have these
    kinds of ideas, then my question to you is, "Why do you call yourself a
    liberal?"
     
    William Graham, May 31, 2005
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  2. Doesn't it depend on the tax? Conservatives used to like balanced
    budgets, but they gave that up in 1980.
    That seems to have rather a lot of support. Are all supporters of
    helmet laws liberals?
    All of them? Wow, we are a consistent group. I wonder why I don't find
    that kind of consistency when I talk to other liberals.
    Huh? Where in the world does this come from? You seem to be proposing
    some "law and order liberal". Overwhelmingly other people claim that
    liberals are the ones who make noise about restricting searches. Of
    course when conservatives talk about this they say that liberals are
    defending the rights of criminals. You are going to have to re-think
    this. I am a liberal and I care quite a bit about search and seizure
    rules for everyone.
    None of them? That is impressive. I suppose it is comforting to think
    that your opponents are not just wrong but stupid.
    So you do use a private definition of liberal. It means what you don't
    like. That explains why "liberals" disagree with you on everything.
    I know of very few who think that way. I do know people who think that
    it is reasonable to tax people to pay for various
    Yeah, some people have that idea, but very few. Are you now asserting
    that when you talk to liberals they say that if you have money you
    must have stolen it?
    Not by anyone else's notion of liberal.
    I would love to see a quote from him that say that he think that if
    someone has money they have stolen it.
    Because I hold to liberal ideas and support liberal causes. Let me
    give you a few examples of liberal causes from the last 100 years or
    so. Women's right to vote. Women's right to own property. Civil Rights
    for Blacks,Latinos, Asians, etc.. Laws against spousal rape. Rape
    shield laws. Laws to protect the environment. Social Security.
    Government inspection of food and drugs. Minimum wage laws. Right of
    workers to unionize. The Miranda rule, the notion that police have to
    notify suspects of their rights. The Gideon rule: the right of
    indigent defendants to have counsel appointed for them.

    Which of these do you object to? Or do you reject all of these liberal
    ideas?






    --
    Matt Silberstein

    All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
    a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
    there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
    end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
    or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
     
    Matt Silberstein, May 31, 2005
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  3. Uh......Let's see.....I don't like Social Security. I think, (and have
    always thought) that it is a bad idea. Millions of people think that it will
    serve as their retirement fund, when actually, it doesn't even come close.
    All it really is, is another tax. The government spends it, instead of
    investing it, and then, years later, says that it is going broke, and will
    have to be changed. (It has already been changed, since the retirement age
    has been raised.) As time goes on, and machines do more of the work, the
    retirement age should be lowered, not raised. The mere fact that they are
    raising it should tell you something.
    Otherwise, I am in favor of most of the things you mention, but I can't
    pin them on the liberals. You mention civil rights for minorities....Does
    this include the affirmative action program. If so, then I don't agree with
    you. The AA program is just government sponsored racism. But the liberals I
    know think it's the cat's whiskers.....
    And, "Laws to protect the environment". If they really do that, and have
    some common sense about them, then sure....I'm all for them. But far too
    often the liberals I know have the jerk-knee reaction that all such laws are
    good. Their fight against the Alaska pipeline, for example. Alaska is 95%
    unaerable land......millions of square miles of ice and rocks that can
    support nothing. The only animals that exist there are going from one place
    to another in order to find enough food and warmth to stay alive. The
    pipeline does no harm whatsoever. AAMOF, it serves to provide a little heat
    that probably has kept a few animals alive. But the liberals I have known
    fought it tooth and nail, and are still bitching about it. Are you one of
    those? - If so, I suggest that you go to Alaska, hire a light plane, and fly
    over that pipeline and you will see what I mean.
    I am very much in favor of government inspection of food and
    drugs.....If they really did it, and did it right. Unfortunately, like most
    things the government does, it's AFU. We pay them a hell of a lot of our
    money, and they hire a hell of a lot of people, and still don't do the job
    properly. This is just another bureaucracy that needs to be torn down and
    rebuilt. Preferably by hiring private industry to do it, and holding them
    accountable if they screw up.
    The Gideon rule is great. Why then do all my liberal friends hate
    lawyers that make their living defending accused criminals? If a
    particularly rotten/heinous crime is committed, they hate the perpetrator,
    and his lawyer. "Why would anyone defend a rotten guy like that?" they
    say......I try to tell them that the guy might not be guilty, and it may be
    somebody else who is, "the rotten guy", but that seems to wash off the
    liberals back. They 1. Assume somebody is guilty. and 2. Hate his attorney
    for defending him. When I site cases where even the defendant thought he was
    guilty, and his lawyer proved that he was not, this still don't make no
    never mind to the liberal. If a crime is bad enough, they will hang whoever
    the police apprehend, along with all his friends, relatives, brothers and
    sisters, uncles and aunts and anyone else that happens to be standing
    around. And the lawyer who tries to give him his constitutional rights by
    defending him.....Well, his ass is grass too.......
    And some of the other ideas are suspect. The minimum wage rule is just
    another example of government interference with what should be a natural
    result of the supply vs. demand curve. Sure, there are examples of people
    who have gotten screwed, but the examples of businesses that have gone broke
    are lost in the noise, and never hit the front page. The people who worked
    for those places and lost their jobs when the business went broke are
    screwed too. One example is the fact that cheap food can be imported from
    Mexico, where there is no minimum wage, and this food competes with what the
    farmers grow here in the US, only they have to meet the minimum wage
    requirement. This has brought about the situation we have today, with
    thousands of Mexican illegals pouring across the border to get the minimum
    wage jobs here in the US. So I don't know about the minimum wage
    law.......It needs a lot more thought by the people whose job it is to know
    about such things.....I certainly don't have the same jerk-knee response
    about it that the liberals do. They always vote to raise it first, and then
    (I hope) think about it later.
    But yes.....In general, I agree with most of the above ideas. Certainly
    their intentions are good, even if they don't always work out as planned in
    practice. All I really ask of the liberal is that he/she thinks a little bit
    before he acts........I never said that liberals were bad people....Only
    stupid. The liberal though, is quick to accuse the conservatives of pure
    rottenness.....Case in point: They all say that Bush lied about the
    existence if WMD's. It never occurs to them that Bush was duped into
    believing that Saddam had them, just like everyone else. And this includes
    the CIA, State Department, Tony Blair, Congress, and the Iranian government
    (who are the ones that Saddam really wanted to believe that he had them.)
     
    William Graham, May 31, 2005
  4. It is more than just a retirement fund. Have you compared it to the
    alternatives prior to its enactment.
    That is just silly. There is a tax involved, sure, but it is not just
    the tax.
    We have been lied to about SS for the last 15-20 years, I agree. They,
    primarily the Republicans, have used the SS surplus to keep down the
    public deficit figures. This was not a liberal action though. The
    people today telling you it is going broke are not the liberals.
    Too bad for you though. They were all liberal actions that were
    strongly opposed by the conservatives of the day.
    I will start with the Civil Rights act of 1965, though we can go back
    to Brown if you want.
    I don't know anyone who have that view.
    So the question then becomes one of details of what laws. But start
    with the notion since it was a liberal idea to begin with.
    Conservatives strongly opposed any restrictions in that area. We were
    told over and over that the auto companies could not make cars that
    polluted less.
    Actually not. The land supports lots and lots of plants and animals.
    That you don't see them right off does not make them disappear.
    Pipelines have a tendency to stop migrations.
    The pipeline *as built* has not had a major catastrophic break. This
    is, in part at least, because they re-designed it to mean
    environmental concerns.
    Really? A? Not just a program with some problems that need fixing?
    BTW, was it conservatives or liberals who said that the companies
    could just police themselves? Anyway, you should really take a look at
    the situation 100 years ago to see what AFU really means.
    Conservatives don't seem to hold to the "hold them accountable"
    aspect.
    You must have very odd liberal friends. I know lots of liberals and
    don't see that notion in particular. I see a bit more fondness for
    lawyers than the general public, but that is about it.
    I have no idea where you get those friends, but it is not from any
    group of liberal I have met. Nor do you have the same set of
    complaints that most anti-liberals claim. Usually it is the exact
    opposite: the liberals stand up for criminals.

    [snip]
    Yeah, Mexico is a great system.
    Do you make this stuff up? Farmers are one of the most subsidized
    groups in America.
    ROTFLMAO. It sure could not be that they have thought about it. There
    response must be "knee-jerk" no matter what view you end up having.
    Nothing works out as planned. That is life.
    And, yet, you seem to accept the bulk of the liberal victories of the
    last 100 years. Go figure. Perhaps your problem is a failure to read
    some history.
    Since we see so much evidence that they covered up evidence and push
    the analysts to go beyond the evidence the notion they were duped as
    well is hard to accept. I say this having thought about it.
    Yet they faked the yellowcake information. They faked the aluminum
    tube evidence. Etc.



    --
    Matt Silberstein

    All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
    a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
    there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
    end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
    or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
     
    Matt Silberstein, May 31, 2005
  5. He likes the death tax.....And that is my money. Why does he think the
    government should confiscate it when I die? - This man is a socialist,
    through and through.

    Upu mean alternatives like standing on your own two feet, and not forcing
    the taxpayers to support you when you fail to save for your own future, or
    buy your own insurance against adversity? - Yes. I have compared it to the
    "alternatives prior to its enactment." - It is just another government give
    away plan....And it's MY MONEY they are giving away.....(as usual)


    Bot liberal and conservatives are telling us that it is going broke.....This
    is a lie. It IS ALREADY BROKE. And, it has been broke for almost my entire
    life. There is no separate fund. The government can't even keep track of the
    money. They have no incentive to. After all, it isn't their money. And, it's
    very easy to spend other peoples money.

    This country has had government sponsored racist policies all of my life.
    The way we separate Native Americans from the rest of us, and pay them
    special payments, and keep them on reservations in their own schools, and
    give them special fishing and huntine provledges and let them operate
    gambling casinos......This is all ridiculous, and (obviously) racist. They
    even use Hitlers 1/16th rule to ascertain whether or not you are a true
    Native American.........



    If "detail" isn't important, they we are wasting our time with this
    discussion...."Detail" means quantitive analysis, and not just off the wall
    guesses......


    But start
    Only by the auto manufacturers themselves. Anyone with half a brain knew
    better. What we should have been told, was that making cars that polluted
    less would be more expensive, and force unfair competition with foreign cars
    that did not have to meet the same standards. But I can't help it if the
    auto manufacturers figured out that the liberals were stupid, and acted
    accordingly.......Fuel efficient cars that polluted less should have been
    developed back in the 40's, and not the 70's.......

    Alaska is only 5% aerable land....Look it up.

    Not if they are built properly....This one is.

    No one designs a pipeline to have a catastrophic break........It is built as
    well as can be expected, and the pipeline is the cheapest way to transport
    liquids over dry land.

    I do, but then, I am a libertarian, and not a conservative.

    Yes, with stupid subsidy laws that pay them for not growing stuff. As usual,
    when government does anything, the screw it up. But it is the liberals who
    want the government to do everything....

    IMO, Saddam had them, and either hid them in a million square miles of open
    desert, or shipped them out to Syria or somewhere in the several monthes he
    had before the war. In any case, you can't prove he didn't have them, any
    more than Bush can prove he did, so it is a moot point.
     
    William Graham, Jun 1, 2005
  6. Mxsmanic

    Charlie Self Guest

    You're a confused person. If someone doesn't fit YOUR definiton of a
    category, then they are wrong in claiming membership in that category?
    Sorry, so, it doesn't work that way. I don't think we need more gun
    laws. I don't want any more taxes and wouldn't mind a few we now have
    being rescinded. I don't want to be searched, even though I haven't
    committed a crime. Ah, oops. That latter is what today's conservative
    says, not the liberals. I probably don't understand YOUR interpretation
    of the Constitution, for which I am grateful.

    Unenforceable laws that you hate? Name a few. It's fairly difficult to
    take an amorphous grouping like that and make any kind of sensible
    response. You are not saying anything except that you hate some laws.
    Who doesn't?
     
    Charlie Self, Jun 1, 2005
  7. Laws that specify what I am allowed to carry in my pocket are unenforceable.
    I carried a pistol in my pocket for thirty years in direct violation of the
    law. Of course, I couldn't fly anywhere with it in my pocket, although I did
    fly to Europe with it in my checked luggage, and them put it back in my
    pocket at the airport.
    Perhaps the people who call themselves liberal are changing in some of
    their attitudes, but MY definition of who I call liberal hasn't
    changed....It is a mindset. I know the mindset well. Exactly what I call
    them doesn't really matter. I could call them "Glumphs", or anything. They
    are the Robin-Hooders who want to give my money to the poor. They are the
    ones who want to raise taxes on the rich to give more government money to
    the poor. They are a dozen or so other things that I could name, and have
    already named many times on this forum. You may call them what you please.
    It doesn't matter....I will still hate them just as much.
     
    William Graham, Jun 1, 2005
  8. Are there any off topic arguments- er debates?? rants?? - that any of
    you gentlemen can resist replying to?

    --

    John McWilliams

    I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm
    not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
     
    John McWilliams, Jun 3, 2005
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