Convert ATX PSU to run on 192V DC rail

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by WiseIndian, Jun 10, 2004.

  1. WiseIndian

    WiseIndian Guest

    I am wondering if a normal 200V AC input ATX PSU can be converted to
    run on a 192V DC Rail, considering the enormous electricity my 16
    battery online UPS is using it must be more efficient running the
    computers directly an the 192V DC rail and running the monitors on a
    seperate offline inverter line . I am not very familiar with how the
    ATX PSU works , but it understand the first stage involves converting
    the 200V AC Input to 200V rectified DC. anyone guide me if it is
    WiseIndian, Jun 10, 2004
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  2. WiseIndian

    Ian Stirling Guest

    Normal 200V AC input?
    where are you?
    Do you perhaps mean 220/240?
    Ian Stirling, Jun 10, 2004
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  3. WiseIndian

    philo Guest

    yes, you are right

    "switching" type power supplies first recity the A.C.
    the D.C. is then inverted to high frequency A.C. where it is again
    rectified... so in theory if your battery bank equaled the D.C. buss of
    your supply, you could skip the first step...

    however the power savings would probably be too small to bother with
    unless you happen to be running a pretty niced sized "server farm"
    philo, Jun 10, 2004
  4. WiseIndian

    VWWall Guest

    Where do you get the value for "the 192V DC rail"? 16 12V, (6 cell),
    batteries in series will give this value. Is it then rectified and
    converted to 120/240 V AC? This must be a very large UPS!

    The ATX PSU input is nominally 240V AC, which when rectified results in:
    240 x 1.44 = ~345V DC. (For 120V AC input a doubler rectifier circuit
    is used, resulting in about the same DC voltage.) This DC voltage is
    supplied to the switching transistors, resulting in an output to the
    final transformer at an equivalent of 40-60 K Hz. This high frequency
    allows for the use of a much smaller transformer.

    One could design a PSU to run from 192V DC with a somewhat lower
    efficiency, but this would be a completely non-standard unit.

    Virg Wall
    VWWall, Jun 10, 2004
  5. WiseIndian

    ric Guest

    Yes, but the OP's 192VDC is too low. A SMPS peak charges the input caps
    to 1.414 times the input voltage. So, 200VAC would result in about 283VDC
    on the caps. The OP's DC value of 192V corresponds to about the same as
    134VAC. Much too low.
    ric, Jun 10, 2004
  6. WiseIndian

    N. Thornton Guest

    There are supplies that will run happily on anything from 110 ac to
    240 ac. Not the ones with voltage switches, but ones that will cover
    the whole range. One of those should do 192dc ok, though really it
    depends on the rectifier/reservoir arrangement. I couldnt guarantee
    all will work.

    Regards, NT
    N. Thornton, Jun 11, 2004
  7. WiseIndian

    Tam/WB2TT Guest

    There is no guarantee that a 120VAC supply will have a voltage doubler. For
    the same power (~300W), I suspect a 170V input supply is cheaper to build
    than a 350 V supply. For the voltage doubler, you about doubled the price of
    the filter caps, used more expensive transistors, and transformers with more
    turns. If you make a million power supplies, and save a dollar on each one,
    you start approaching serious money.

    Tam/WB2TT, Jun 11, 2004
  8. WiseIndian

    WiseIndian Guest

    thanks for your inputs guys.
    yes i did mean 220/240V
    yes it is a 35 comp plus gaming center with the monitors on a seperate
    offline inverter line. the online UPS has a 16 battery bank and seems
    working at 65-70% overall efficiancy, since we are running 24 hrs a
    the saving potential is huge.
    So, >200VAC would result in about 283VDC on the caps.
    true but considering that we run on clean battery power is it
    necessary to
    have them caps fully charged ?
    batteries in series will give this value. Is it then rectified and
    it is a 6KVA UPS
    actually i dont know too much about smps supplies, but since the smps
    suppose to work in the range of 90-150V or 190-250V wouldnt that fall
    in the band on 192VDC?
    sometimes i wonder if the computer manufacturers have a deal with UPS
    manufactureres and power utlity companies in keeping us stuck with
    costly power guzzling online UPS's?
    WiseIndian, Jun 11, 2004
  9. WiseIndian

    VWWall Guest

    Typo: This should be 240 x 1.414 = ~340 V DC.
    You are forgetting the 1.41 factor in converting RMS AC to peak DC.

    At nominal 115/230 V AC input the switching circuits run at ~325 V.
    The ATX PSU is specified to run at 90V AC. This results in 254 V DC at
    the output of the doubler. 192V DC is far too little for the switching
    circuit to provide the correct DC outputs, without changing the turns
    ratio in the output transformer. Even then, the switching transistors
    would be running at about 35% higher current for the same output current.

    Even if a current design ATX PSU would work at this voltage, one would
    have to provide a non standard input for the 192V DC to the "front end"
    DC circuitry in the ATX supply.
    VWWall, Jun 11, 2004
  10. WiseIndian

    VWWall Guest

    I've never seen one without, have you? Actually the cost of switching
    transistors is much more dependant on their current capacity than their
    voltage ratings. Also, with a fixed "on" voltage drop, the heat will
    increase with the current being passed, requiring larger heat sinks, and
    resulting in lowered efficency.

    For a 240 V DC input , there is no choice but to use the full peak
    rectified DC! Check the price of filter caps. You'll find no where
    near a double price! The output transformer primary turns are double,
    at the higher voltage, but with half the wire size . The output
    windings have fewer turns at the same wire size.

    It may be serendipity, but the voltage doubling power supply represents
    about the most economical design possible. When you consider that a
    single SPST switch makes it a 115/130 V unit, you can see why the design
    is so universal!

    Virg Wall
    VWWall, Jun 11, 2004
  11. WiseIndian

    VWWall Guest

    The DC input to the switching circuitry has to be within design limits.
    For 90-140 V this is 255-396 V DC. Your 292 V DC is far too low.
    You're forgetting the 1.414 factor between AC and peak rectified DC voltage.
    Switching all the ATX supplies and the UPS to 220V might gain a few
    points in efficiency, but the re-wiring might not be worth it.

    Virg Wall
    VWWall, Jun 11, 2004
  12. Its possible but non-standard. Do you already have the 192 VDC rail
    available or are you free to change the design?

    There are ATX (and other) supplies already built to operate from 48 VDC
    busses, this being a standard telecom system voltage derived from
    batteries. Also available in 12 and 24 VDC I believe.
    Paul Hovnanian P.E., Jun 11, 2004
  13. WiseIndian

    ric Guest

    At a 230vac input rating, a SMPS will "breakout" at about 170vac, at
    which time about 240vdc will be on the HV buss. This is at full load.
    Whether or not it will go much lower depends on the load and on the
    design of the PSU.
    Actually, it is 90-132 vac. 132vac would result in about 370VDC on
    the buss (due to doubling), and 180vac would result in about 254VDC.

    You would have to modify the supply to stop the doubling, and use
    the 90-132 setting (and pray.)
    ric, Jun 11, 2004
  14. WiseIndian

    N. Thornton Guest

    so youre saying more or less all universal supplies should work on 192 IIUC.

    Regards, NT
    N. Thornton, Jun 11, 2004
  15. WiseIndian

    Ian Stirling Guest

    Why not simply stick in a offline UPS?
    Ian Stirling, Jun 11, 2004
  16. VWWall wrote:

    (snip regarding ATX power supplies run on 192VDC)
    In 230V mode it is a bridge rectifier into the filter capacitors.
    In that case 300VDC should pass through just fine. I have
    never had a 300VDC power source to test it on, but have believe
    that it would work, at least for AT power supplies.

    ATX power supplies have the stand by power to supply the
    turn on circuits. I don't know how that one works,
    but it may have a transformer.

    It is convenient that a SPST switch can convert a bridge and
    two capacitors into a voltage doubler.

    -- glen
    glen herrmannsfeldt, Jun 11, 2004
  17. WiseIndian

    Robert Baer Guest

    The ATX supply is a switcher and if the switch in the back is in the
    240V position (not the 129V position), i believe it would not care DC or
    AC (25Hz, 50Hz, or 400Hz).
    All of these designs rectify the input voltage first, producing a DC
    voltage for the switcher.
    The "trick" of allowing 120VAC or 240VAC, i think, is switching in a
    voltage doubler for the 120V capability.
    I would have to dig into one to see exactly what is done.
    In any event the efficency is almost exactly the same if run from a DC
    source or an AC source, so there will not be any observable gain or
    Also, the efficency will not observably change between a 120VAC source
    and a 240V source.
    Now, if that inverter is running from 192V DC, thenone would bypass
    the conversion loss of the inverter, if the ATX PSUs were connected
    directly; make damn sure the switch (for each one) is in the 240V
    I think it would be safe, but since i have not investigated these
    supplies, i cannot bs absolutely certain.
    Robert Baer, Jun 11, 2004
  18. WiseIndian

    Robert Baer Guest

    *RECTIFY*???? a DC voltage??? NUTS! cannot be done!
    Robert Baer, Jun 11, 2004
  19. In message <>, WiseIndian

    Just in case it's not clear to the OP, a 'voltage doubler' as used on
    the 90-150V can only work with an AC input.

    Keith Wootten, Jun 11, 2004
  20. WiseIndian

    Tam/WB2TT Guest

    I am saying this is a marketing issue, not an engineering issue. Also, for
    multi voltage use, having to change a strap from bridge rectifier to voltage
    doubler is not the preferred way. Preferred by whom? depends on your
    management and marketing types.

    Tam/WB2TT, Jun 11, 2004
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