Compensation

Hey all,
I recently passed Exam 070-306 to get my MCP Certification. I am a
second semester Junior at a University (4.0 CIS GPA, 3.4 Overall)
majoring in CIS. I also have a MOS certification.

I expect a company to be offering me a job doing VB.NET Development
and I was just wondering if anyone could give me any advice on what kind
of Salary I should ask for? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Lydon Bergin
lydonbergin[{AT}]hotmail.com

 

January 9, 2006

I definitely suggest looking at the current and past versions of the MCP
Salary Survey at mcpmag.com....!!! Good job! (also check out the MCP
Career Center on the MCP Private Site for local job listings which will give
you another indication)

--

Joseph Bittman
Microsoft Certified Solution Developer
Microsoft Most Valuable Professional -- DPM

Blog/Web Site: http://71.39.42.23/

 

I did the cert while in college thing to and I have a question for you.

Did you find the cert study and test more demanding the college.

I did...considerably so but I didnt know anyone at the college doing it as
well so I was never able to get a sounding board on that.

 

Yes, I definitely found that I have learned much more useful stuff studying
for Microsoft Exams than I have in college. In fact, I have learned almost
nothing in college that will be useful in my future. Of course, I still
have three semesters to go, so I am hoping it will get a lot more advanced
really quickly, but I'm not counting on it. I want a Computer Information
Systems program that is as rigorous as a Computer Science Program. The
problem with my college (and I would guess others) is that they make you get
a Minor in Business Administration (About 15-30 hours of, to me, useless
junk) if you major in CIS. I would love to replace those useless
Management/Marketing/Introduction to CIS classes with some ball-busting
VB/SQL work, but that's just not in the curriculum right now.

What really sucks is that they're changing the curriculum totally next year
to VB.NET/MSSQL but I won't be able to take advantage of it as I will have
to finish out my coursework. Oh well, I can teach myself as well as anyone
can teach me.

I'm rambling now, but my advice to people that are in college right now like
me is FIND A JOB IN I.T. It will be hard, it took me almost 2 years, but
you can do it. You will learn so much more from just being around
everything that it's not even funny. Between Certifications and Experience,
I have learned more than any of my peers that will graduate with just a
degree.

PS. Anyone need to hire a VB.NET developer with an MCP in Tennessee??
(I have a great job but I've outgrown it and want to get into development)

Lydon D. Bergin
MCP, MOS

 

Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not
count on it like you say. Mine got so bad I couldnt take it anymore and drop
out at senior standing once I got MCAD. I get interviews but no job yet,
without question my MCAD and personal projects are helping me get interviews.
In fact, just today I had a pretty intense technical interview which I think
I did pretty well, at least compared to anyone else they will find at my
green level.

About CS: Thing is, from what I understand about CS they dont really perpare
those students for application development. They learn theory, how to make
database engines programing engines etc. but not presentation
layer/middleware development.

In short, in my view certification doesnt get the reputation it deserves.

 

Well my degree plan (Info Sys) went from bad to worse so its best to not

That is probably the route I would take if I didn't have scholarships, etc,
that were actually paying me to go to school. Can't really beat that. I
can definitely understand the feeling of not being able to sit through the
hours and hours of crap that it puts you through though.

I think with an MCAD can get your foot in the door somewhere, but there's
nothing like that college degree to an employer. I hate to be a downer, but
without a degree you'll probably never be paid what you're worth (at least
that's what I've been told, others may know better).

I agree. CS majors probably don't have to take 2
accounting/marketing/management classes either though. I know these will
look good in the event an employer ever actually looks at what I've taken
(not likely), but I want to learn how to Populate a DataGrid or implement
Tracing in an application. I think one thing holding back colleges from
being able to teach this stuff is that they don't have enough professors
that have any idea what they're doing.

Again, I agree. It seems to me that in the workplace a certification more
of a way for current employees to prove what they know and maybe get a raise
than it is for an aspiring programmer to get a job. I'm not sure why that
is, probably because of all the "paper MCXX's" around, which Microsoft is
actively trying to stop. Maybe with the new generation of certifications
they will do just that and then when we upgrade our skills employers will
really know that we know our stuff.


The way I'm looking at my education is this: when I graduate in Spring 2007
I'll have 2 1/2 years of full-time experience in I.T. at a mid-sized
corporation, I'll have a CIS Degree from a pretty good school, and I'll be
at least MCP, MCAD, and MOS. I think my next employer will give me a second
look before they do some guy that graduated right beside me with no
experience and no certs. At least I hope so.

 

Yeah if you finish school and have the certs you will be prime canidate for
sure. I personally am not worried about the pay becuase developers make so
much money anyway but I am concerned about getting in the door.

Many of the job descriptions that say "degree required" arent really and it
depends on how much education over all etc... The problem I have had a few
times is recuiters who are clueless and simply say no degree no resume sumbit
to client.
Having said all this I still get enough calls to keep me busy but that silly
overpriced degree would help me for sure. Most likely would have gotten a job
before graduating if I stayed in.

Thing is some employers are clueless about certification. I had one recuiter
give me an online test which was just as hard as any cert exam I have taken
and it was three tests! I was insulted that she held more respect to
"provit.com" then "microsoft.com". I didnt bother finishing the test. Besides
one question was flat out wrong.

Company I am currently interivewing with and am excited about requires
certification within the first year...

 

No one is ever paid what they're worth. But that's another topic. ;-)

As for what to ask for, the answer is to not ask for anything. Let them
make the first offer. If you tell them something that is low, you may just
get it. If you tell them something too high, they'll laugh and hire the next
guy. If they press you for a price, then they're trying to get a bargain and
probably aren't worth working for anyway. Didn't they teach you negotiation
in college? ;-)

I remember the first job I ever got. They offered me twice the amount that
I was thinking of asking for. Something like that sticks with you.

 

Many if not most companies do indeed work that way. What I find stunning is
that they actually think a canidate once hired will never find out what the
going rates are.

In other words, when a company pays considerably less then the industry
standard they can guarantee that person will leave in less then 2 years. If
that is the kind of business they want to run I sure would be intrested in
knowing their business model.
Most people in HR never look that deep into their hiring standards.

 

added to what I just said I took an HR class and they said on average it
costs two time the annual salary of a given position to find and settle in a
new canidate. I find that hard to believe but I am sure its costly either
way.

As a result, for HR managers to think short term unless its for a specific
contract seems short sighted.