Discussion in 'MCSE' started by Guest, Dec 16, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Frisbee® Guest

    Who are you? {$1 to RSFC}
    Frisbee®, Dec 20, 2005
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  2. Guest

    kpg Guest

    WSUS <> said something like

    <snip> the long winded complaint about useless certs.

    If certs were the only gauge of a persons competence
    then I agree, they are quite useless. The reality is
    that, despite what MS wants or claims, certs are not
    a good indication of your experience or knowledge. Certs
    do, however, serve a purpose.

    If someone with little experience studies for and passes
    an MS exam they have achieved a baseline of knowledge,
    even if it is only as to the breath and depth of the
    material. I know this is not even close to the intention
    of the certification program, but the value of the cert
    can only be related to the qualities one can expect out
    of a cert holder in general.

    As an employer, If a candidate has an MCSE I would test
    their knowledge with appropriate questions and even some
    hands on situations (especially if she were cute) and I
    would expect to be very impressed with their knowledge or
    I would dismiss them as a fraud. Now if the same person
    only holds an MCP, I would expect less immediate knowledge
    and I would interview them with an eye on intelligence,
    problem solving, and the ability to be trained. So the
    cert. is a claim of knowledge by an applicant, and that
    claim must be put to the test with careful interview
    techniques. The philosophy is: Employer Beware. We as
    employers should not expect MS to do our job for us.

    Now, as a worker bee, yes, it is quite frustrating that I,
    a qualified and reputable candidate, get lumped in with
    all the stupid [email protected] idiots out there, but that's
    just the way of the world. The dream of having your worth
    accurately represented in a piece of paper is just that,
    a dream, and a little scary, too.

    Does this mean that MS should abandon its quest to improve
    the quality of its certifications? No, of course not. In
    the certification arms race each side will achieve only
    momentary advantages over it's rival.

    Well, at this point I forgot why I was even motivated to

    I'm going to grap some lunch.

    kpg, Dec 20, 2005
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  3. Guest

    JaR Guest

    In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, kpg spewed across the ether:
    So the purpose of having that MCSE would be...?

    What you seem to be saying is: if you don't have any practical
    experience, then go ahead and do the studies to gain the "baseline"
    knowledge. But save your money and don't bother with the tests
    themselves, as if you interview as an MCSE, and can't pass the Q&A, you
    will be considered a fraud, and be worse off than if you had never
    claimed to be certified!

    IOW--The freaking certs are worthless without the relevent experience to
    back them up. And if an employer can verify the experience, what is the
    point of asking for the cert as a pre-hire requirement?
    JaR, Dec 20, 2005
  4. Guest

    kpg Guest

    I see your dilemma, but yes. The cert acts as a truth detector!

    You had better have the qualifications your cert claims you have
    or you will not work for me.

    It is a self correcting system, and I am in control.

    It's really a beautiful thing.

    kpg, Dec 20, 2005
  5. Guest

    kpg Guest

    Like I said, the value of the cert. is not the advertised
    or desired value that MS wants, and I further claim that
    it CAN NEVER BE, based on the nature of how one obtains
    the cert.: by passing a test.

    I'm saying that certification based on passing tests, as
    is widely practiced today, has a fundamental flaw: the test
    is the measure of the knowledge, not an indicator of experience.
    This knowledge can be obtained after years of working in the
    field or by looking at the answers. Efforts to add hands-on
    lab-style questions will defeat the cheaters for a while, but
    those questions have answers too.

    Think about, for example, college. When I see someone that
    has a college degree, even if it is general studies, I know
    something about them. I know that, like me, they killed a
    lot of brain cells with too much beer, but I also know that
    they put in at least four years, wrote tons of papers, did
    some presentations, studied math, history, science, English
    and environmental radicalism.

    Likewise, when I see someone with prior military experience,
    I know a few things about them too. I know they can stand
    perfectly still while someone yells obscenities about their
    mother in their face and they can run for a long time wearing
    combat boots with heavy things tied to their back. (Unless
    their Air Force, then all bets are off).

    Now if someone presents me with a cert, I say, oh look, you
    know the answers! My next job is to determine HOW they know
    the answers. The paper cert., based on taking a test, does
    not promise any higher level of knowledge except the answers
    to the questions.

    And no, I have not given up. The world has shown me the truth
    and I accept it. Will I still pursue an MCSE? No, But I will
    pursue an MCSD. Why? Because I do know the material and the
    cert. says I know it, and the interviewer can ask me anything
    that want and see that I know it. All is well.

    kpg, Dec 20, 2005
  6. Guest

    Ben Smith Guest

    Are IT Certifications Still Relevant?
    The bottom line

    Ben Smith
    The Business End
    InstantDoc #44691
    Windows IT Pro
    Ben Smith, Dec 20, 2005
  7. Guest

    kpg Guest

    Ben Smith <> said something like

    Ah, yes. psychometrically. I love that word.
    kpg, Dec 20, 2005
  8. Guest

    JaR Guest

    JaR, Dec 20, 2005
  9. Guest

    JaR Guest

    In microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Ben Smith spewed across the ether:
    Besides; the real question is not whether Certifications are relevant,
    but rather whether the ms certs are. Particularly MCSE.

    IMNSHO, any certification that does not include verification of
    experience is going to be met with scepticism at best.

    So what's the point?

    It would be so very simple for MS to include a work history requirement
    to the current testing that would go miles toward establishing

    Can't find a way to do that?

    Oh, well!

    MCNGP 10110
    Remove hat to reply
    A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I could
    do was to watch it skitter across the floor. (Anthony de Boer)
    JaR, Dec 20, 2005
  10. Guest

    kpg Guest

    Hey! That's a good idea. But in this age of "it's not my fault",
    I would bet that disclosing someone work history would be tantamount
    to violating their civil rights.
    kpg, Dec 20, 2005
  11. Guest

    WSUS Guest

    You are an American, right?

    In the other end of the world, RELATIONSHIP >>>> everything!

    If the manager/employer earned his certificate from cheating, do you think
    that he wanna hire someone who has real knowledge and passed the exams

    Believe me, if you got employed not because of your quailification or
    abilities, but instead, it is because the employer thought that you have
    some special ways to cheat more effectively, you wanna die!

    Anonymous MCT
    WSUS, Dec 21, 2005
  12. Guest

    LRM Guest

    This post hurt my head. So, what I'm getting is that in other countries,
    knowledge doesn't mean anything, but cheating does?
    LRM, Dec 21, 2005
  13. Guest

    TechGeekPro Guest

    You are Neil and I claim my two-fifty.
    TechGeekPro, Dec 21, 2005
  14. Guest

    Neil Guest

    where do you want to go today?
    Neil, Dec 21, 2005
  15. Guest

    Neil Guest

    dude, you're scaring me. there should never be a reason or excuse for
    cheating on exams. and an MCT should never condone it. my 2£
    Neil, Dec 21, 2005
  16. Guest

    Neil Guest

    that's a negative. and I doubt its any of teh other MCNGP/MCTs
    Neil, Dec 21, 2005
  17. Guest

    kpg Guest

    I'm with LRM here, I don't quite get your drift...

    however, I would say people are the same everywhere,
    America or not.

    True, if you boss is a cheater he/she may well only
    hire people dumber than themselves to protect their
    job. That is sad, and I'm sure it happens all the time.

    Why would anyone want to work for an organization like
    that? If that is your only option, then play along
    with the dumba$$, and once you're in, take his job.

    The whole point is this: Honesty is a rare and valuable
    trait. Those who culture it will succeed, even though
    there are some who seem to succeed by cheating.

    Cheaters never win.
    Stay in School.
    Just say no.
    Man up.
    kpg, Dec 21, 2005
  18. Guest

    Jim Guest

    Relationship = Everything?
    Relationship != Everything?
    I don't get it. Either way, this has nothing to do with the rest of your
    So a manager who is a braindumper will try to determine if the candidate
    actually studied and learned the stuff or not. Then he would only be
    interested in hiring you if you cheated? That makes no sense in America,
    not sure about the other side of the world. If i was a cheating bastard
    manager, I would hire someone who actually knew their shit. Then when the
    network goes down, there is actually someone there that can fix it. Then I
    take credit for the fix.
    "Believe me, if you got employed, it is not because of your qualification or
    ability, it is because the braindumper manager was able to determine that
    you cheated and wanted to hire you. You should die."

    That is how I interpret that, although it still makes no sense. Glad I'm in
    Jim, Dec 21, 2005
  19. Guest

    Neil Guest

    a sound plan if ever I heard one...
    Neil, Dec 21, 2005
  20. Guest

    Jim Guest

    I forgot about the part where I then fire you for not being any help during
    the crisis. We need doers in our organization.
    Jim, Dec 21, 2005
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