Canon S3 or S5....?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Rohit, Jul 22, 2007.

  1. Rohit

    John Turco Guest

    Neil Harrington wrote:

    <heavily edited>

    Hello, Neil:

    Furthermore, I've read claims that even NiCd cells' alleged "memory
    effect" is largely a myth (i.e., it's only been documented, under
    laboratory conditions).

    So, what is one to believe?


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Aug 5, 2007
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  2. Rohit

    John Turco Guest

    ASAAR wrote:

    <heavily edited>

    Hello, ASAAR:

    All right, then...what >does< "WH" mean? :-J
    <edited>

    Well, my Kodak V603 included a proprietary Li-Ion pack, but no charger
    was supplied. Hardly a problem, though, as the battery can be charged,
    in-camera (with the AC adapter plugged in). Personally, I simply mount
    the V603, on my "Camera Dock Series 3," which accomplishes the same
    task.


    Cordially,
    John Turco <>
     
    John Turco, Aug 5, 2007
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  3. Rohit

    Paul Allen Guest

    I guess that's a backhanded way of saying cylindrical batteries are
    not always a major obstacle. Can't quite bring yourself to admit
    that being cylindrical is not a particular disadvantage of NiMH
    batteries, can you?
    Really? You're saying AA powered cameras generally have stupidly
    designed battery doors, but this has nothing to do with the batteries?
    Do these mental contortions hurt you?
    That is definitely an affirmative statement. It singles out one
    particular cause of reliability in devices: the use of Li-ion
    batteries. And, it is in conflict with your insistence above
    that stupidly designed battery doors are not the fault of the
    batteries. Which is it? Is battery type directly related to
    reliability or not?
    Do you want to be respected? Then stop playing games with words.
    Yep. When you design with AA batteries, one of the things you have
    to worry about is engineering the door to withstand the stress. The
    fact that some engineers cut corners is not an argument against a
    particular battery technology. It is an argument against sloppy
    engineering.
    I try that every once in a while. It doesn't seem to do any good.

    Paul Allen
     
    Paul Allen, Aug 5, 2007
  4. Rohit

    ASAAR Guest

    The first two were "NiMH powered". These were Canon's S10 and S20,
    which both used and were supplied with one 2CR5 lithium battery. I
    bought for each of them Canon's proprietary NB-5H Battery Pack which
    was physically larger than the 2CR5 battery (so it wouldn't fit in
    any other camera using 2CR5 batteries) and it contained five AAA
    NiMH cells within the shell. It was rated at 6 volts and 650mAh,
    about par for NiMH AAA cells back in 2000. For later cameras in
    Canon's S#0 line, the battery pack was changed to Li-Ion.

    Fully charged NB-5H batteries were supposed to be good for 55
    shots using the LCD display (with the flash used for 1/4th of the
    shots), 230 shots using the optical viewfinder, and the replay time
    using the LCD display was a paltry 50 minutes. Even if the optical
    viewfinder was used to take pictures, the battery wasn't kind to
    chimpaholics. Compare the 50 minutes display time to the 20+ hours
    you can get with Canon's more recent A630/A640 which uses four AA
    cells. It was for this reason that whenever I traveled with the
    camera, I took along three NB-5H battery packs and the charger.

    When I got the Fuji S5100 about 4 years later, cameras had become
    much more efficient. Instead of 55 shots (1/4 using flash), Fuji
    started using the much tougher CIPA procedure to rate battery
    performance, described in the manual as :
    To be able to take 400 pictures with the S10/S20 but using the
    CIPA procedure as the Fuji did, I might have had to recharge the
    NB-5H battery pack 15 times. The S10/S20 cameras were very nice,
    but it can't be denied that they were battery pigs. Cameras that
    used AA batteries from that era also didn't perform very well, and
    that's why Li-Ion batteries were preferred back then. But while the
    cameras and NiMH batteries improved greatly over the years and many
    are aware of this, some people still live in the past.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 5, 2007
  5. Rohit

    ASAAR Guest

    Want to be my "buyer"? :)
     
    ASAAR, Aug 5, 2007
  6. Rohit

    ASAAR Guest

    Oh, I don't know . . . maybe watt hours? :)

    Then it might be fair to say that a charger really was included,
    but instead of it being an external charger, it was included in the
    camera. What I don't think you'll ever find is a manufacturer
    selling a camera that includes a Li-Ion battery, but which is both
    unable to charge the battery internally and doesn't include a
    charger with it. My Canon S10/S20 didn't include Canon's expensive
    DR-100A charger/power adapter, but then it also didn't include the
    NB-5H NiMH battery pack since a 2CR5 lithium battery was included.
    Sneaky. And the battery and charger *were* included with the camera
    in some regions, but not in the USA. Nobody in their right mind
    would use 2CR5 batteries because they were way too expensive to
    casually use 2 or 3 per day. That could easily amount to over $150
    spent for batteries per week.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 5, 2007
  7. Rohit

    ASAAR Guest

    Maybe the problem is that it's not really real and not really
    myth. Something like Richard Dawkins' gene/meme theories. People
    think that he says "this is how genes/memes behave", when what he
    really has said is "this is how genes/memes *appear* to behave".

    In other words what Dawkins has provided are "contrived, totally
    fictional, extreme" explanations that aren't meant to be taken as
    literal truth, but are useful in understanding the underlying
    mechanisms. :) As he describes genes (probably in "The Selfish
    Gene") genes don't really *want* to do anything, but pretending that
    they do can help to understand *what* they do.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 5, 2007
  8. John Turco wrote:
    []
    John,

    It's been a long time since I had any NiCd cells, but the memory effect
    certainly wasn't a myth. Perhaps they've been able to improve performance
    in recent times - I don't know, but model makers might.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Aug 5, 2007
  9. Rohit

    Allen Guest

    When you put them in your mouse, I hope you will report on the results.
    I've never gotten around to trying them in my MS wireless, as I have
    assumed that the lower voltage of the NiMH cells wouldn't work well. I
    really am interested.
    Allen
     
    Allen, Aug 5, 2007
  10. I have a Logitech wireless laser mouse. It seemed to gobble up the AA
    alkalines I put in it pretty fast, so I thought I'd try some of the older,
    lower capacity NiMH cells I have laying around. I wondered the same thing as
    you, whether the lower nominal voltage might cause problems or even not work
    at all. But they work just fine, seem to last about as well as the alkalines
    too, though I never actually kept a record of that. These are just ordinary
    NiMH, so their self-discharge probably takes as much out of them as the
    mouse does. Very convenient, anyway; when the "battery critical" warning
    comes on this mouse still works for days, so plenty of time to charge up
    another set.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Aug 5, 2007
  11. John, my understanding is that if it's not a myth it's at least a misnomer.
    The battery doesn't "remember" anything, as the original stories implied.
    Those stories as I first heard them were: If a battery were repeatedly
    discharged to a certain level, it would somehow remember that level and then
    be reluctant to discharge any further than that. I believe that's where the
    idea of "memory" originated.

    What I understand now (but vaguely) goes something like this: During the
    normal course of charging and partially discharging a NiCd cell, repeated
    over and over, crystallization and perhaps other changes take place in the
    cell's electrolyte which reduce its capacity. It doesn't really have
    anything to do with the cell's remembering a particular level; the more the
    cell is used in this way the more capacity it loses. Deep cycling the cell
    may then reverse these changes at least to some degree, and restore some if
    not all of its original capacity.

    If someone has a clearer explanation than this, from some authoritative
    source, I'd appreciate seeing it.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Aug 5, 2007
  12. You're thinking of radio-controlled models?

    I used to do a lot of R/C flying, but that was back in the '70s. Then, the
    usual thing was a 500mAh NiCd battery pack in the plane, except for the
    little 1/2A-powered planes that couldn't haul that much battery around and
    generally used 225mAh packs. These were all glow-plug-engined planes of
    course.

    I have no idea what they're using now, but I'd be very surprised if they're
    still using NiCds, given the much greater capacity of same-sized NiMH cells.

    Those things were sure a lot of fun, if somewhat messy.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Aug 5, 2007
  13. Yes - radio-controlled models. I'd heard that the lower internal
    resistance of NiCds was an advantage, but I'm probably confusing this with
    something else altogether (where a very heavy current draw was required).

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Aug 5, 2007
  14. Rohit

    ASAAR Guest

    Maybe not. NiCd might have been much better than alkaline or
    heavy duty batteries, not for powering receivers and electronics,
    but for heating the glow plugs used to help start the engines.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 5, 2007
  15. Rohit

    SMS Guest

    I use NiMH in my Microsoft Bluetooth mouse. Works fine. It was going
    through alkalines pretty fast.

    I was thinking of trying the rechargeable Li-Ion 2CR5 batteries in an
    older digital camera, but geez they're expensive for such low capacity
    packs, $20-25 for 600mAH. Some cameras require two of them, along with
    two chargers if you want to charge both at the same time.
     
    SMS, Aug 6, 2007
  16. Rohit

    SMS Guest

    True memory effect is virtually unknown. However the term "memory
    effect" morphed into a synonym for voltage depression, which is indeed
    quite common, and is a result of improper charging.

    Another issue with Ni-Cad was when they developed an internal short, one
    that could be "zapped" away with a high current like a huge electrolytic
    capacitor discharged across the cell. Popular Electronics had an article
    about building a ni-cad zapper in one of their issues back in the 1970's.
     
    SMS, Aug 6, 2007
  17. Rohit

    ASAAR Guest

    What??? How can that be? We've been told here that due to the
    flat discharge curve of NiMH batteries, that that clearly can't be
    possible. If it was, some of those in-camera battery meters might
    actually work, like the one in my Fuji. :)
     
    ASAAR, Aug 6, 2007
  18. It's flat but not perfectly flat, and I believe the Logitech laser mouse
    becomes alarmed when the battery falls ever so slightly below the nominal
    1.2V. At 1.2V it's happy and content, but at 1.19999999V it starts worrying
    and the "battery critical" light begins making its announcements. :)

    The Nikon Coolpix 4100 and 4600 (and presumably other AA-using Coolpixii as
    well) have low-battery indicators that work remarkably well, i.e. they
    announce the lowness of the battery long before it actually gives out. But
    these cameras can be set for the type of AA cell used (alkaline, NiMH or
    lithium), specifically for the sake of the battery indicator. This is a
    great idea that I haven't seen used in other makes of AA-fed cameras.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Aug 6, 2007
  19. Well, we can try. I don't think there's been any mention of the folly of gun
    control in this NG for a while, which is clearly an oversight and should be
    corrected ASAP.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Aug 6, 2007
  20. Rohit

    ASAAR Guest

    Hmm, I didn't realize that for computer use only Mighty Mice need
    apply. :)

    To be fair (since I just realized it), the multiple battery
    warnings produced by the Fuji were while alkalines were used. The
    NiMH batteries have lasted so long even with extensive shooting that
    they've never gotten to even the first level battery warning after
    using them for several consecutive days of shooting. I agree that
    it would be nice to tell the camera what type of batteries are used,
    and that's also done by/for the battery software used in my PDAs and
    some radios. With some radios it's only done to prevent the
    built-in charger from trying to charge alkaline batteries. With
    others, such as Eton's (Grundig) E10, it actually does allow the
    radio to more accurately display the current battery level. Since
    alkalines have lots of life remaining at the voltage that NiMH
    batteries go flat, if cameras set their battery detectors as if only
    NiMH were used, if might work for alkalines as well. Maybe you
    could try this by using alkalines in your Coolpix 4100 or 4600 while
    the battery type is set to NiMH. But don't do it while taking
    pictures that you'd hate losing, just do it for expendables. :)
     
    ASAAR, Aug 6, 2007
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