Canon 10D...Sharpening question

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by jeff liss, Sep 20, 2003.

  1. jeff liss

    jeff liss Guest

    Do any of you use the +1 or +2 sharpening in the parameters of the
    camera or do you do any/all sharpening in post production? I shot a
    simple outdoor portrait of my daughter today with +1, 50mm f/1.4, f/4
    @150 with a B+W circular PL filter. The image was a little soft. I
    sharpened it up with Elements, but was wondering if this is going to
    be SOP. I'd prefer a crisp image coming from the camera, not Elements.
    Any suggestions, opinions....what do you do?? TIA.
    Jeff
     
    jeff liss, Sep 20, 2003
    #1
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  2. jeff liss

    Scott Coutts Guest

    Sharpness-wise, how do they look when printed rather than when
    viewed on the monitor?

    I never use any of the in-camera effects. But the reason I do that
    is because I send a proportion of my pics to a stock agent, so they
    go unsharpened.

    Some pics I do sharpen.

    You can do it either way I guess, and to be honest, I havent
    actually compared in-camera sharpening with that from ps.
     
    Scott Coutts, Sep 20, 2003
    #2
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  3. jeff liss

    Jim Townsend Guest

    I've tried the 10D at all the + sharpness settings. I don't like how any of
    them come out.

    I do mine with software.. I also find I need a bit of a contrast bump too.
    But of course not all images seem to need it.

    They included more in-camera sharpening in the 300D.. I guess Canon got a few
    complaints about the firmware sharpening in the 10D.
     
    Jim Townsend, Sep 20, 2003
    #3
  4. jeff liss

    FOR7b Guest

    Do any of you use the +1 or +2 sharpening in the parameters of the
    It is usually best to sharpen afterwards especially if you are printing your
    pics since different levels of sharpness should be applied for different sized
    prints and also depending on file size and finally depending on type of print,
    like inkjet, or traditional.

    The bigger the file size then the more aggressive the sharpening should be for
    small prints and less aggressive as the print size increases. The radius
    adjustment being the more important adjustment. A smaller radius for small file
    sizes and small prints and a much bigger radius for a large file and small
    print.




     
    FOR7b, Sep 20, 2003
    #4
  5. jeff liss

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    That doesn't necessarily mean that Canon is going to make the output of
    all future DSLRs sharper; it may simply reflect the intended market.
    --
     
    JPS, Sep 20, 2003
    #5

  6. I never sharpen in-camera ... well never if I'm using RAW. It's unavoidable
    when shooting JPEG. This is because the sharpening can be handled on your
    computer with far greater control and result in much higher quality. With
    the 10D (as most DSLR's) there's two issues to be dealt with. The first is
    the AA filter 'haze' - for want of a better word. This is best removed with
    mild wide radius USM or high pass overlays. The next is detail sharpening
    .... even with a completely unsharpened RAW conversion it's unecessary when
    producing small prints. Once you get above 9x6 ... and certainly at 12x8 ...
    it becomes a real issue that has to be addressed. There's 1001 options here
    from basic PS USM (not so good) to sophisticated algorithms & plug-ins like
    Power Retouche and PhotoKit Sharpener. A freebie which I'm particularly fond
    of (I made it) is here ... http://www.lindev.org/10D-sharpening/ ... It's
    specifically designed for 10D RAW conversion from C1 - it'll render less
    'perfect' results with files processed with the other converters

    Simon
     
    Simon Stanmore, Sep 20, 2003
    #6
  7. jeff liss

    T Strong Guest

    I have been following a process of sharpening at two points in "work flow".
    Described at

    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/digitalphotography/learnmore/fixit/sharpening.asp

    once for the "output from the camera" and a second time to reflect the
    selected output medium.
     
    T Strong, Sep 20, 2003
    #7
  8. jeff liss

    HanK Guest

    The equivelent set up for the 10D to get prosumer straight outs like the
    300D is +1 sat +1 cont +2 sharp.

    Does anybody know the parameters to get the 10D like the D30 straight outs,
    I loved the D30 reds.
     
    HanK, Sep 20, 2003
    #8
  9. True. I agree with this post...

    The 300D is the first digital SLR that anyone has come out with that
    actually TARGETS the "consumer" level of digicam buyer. As a result, they
    realize that the 300D may actually be bought by the first time digital
    camera buyer, whereas cameras such as the 10D most likely are bought by more
    experienced users.

    New buyers have not yet learned the art of how to use image editors, or the
    "unsharp mask" commands, so the 300D was made to sharpen images more
    in-camera. The 10D captures the details to begin with, but does not do much
    (even at +2 sharpeness) to sharpen them... it is a given by Canon that those
    using the 10D will be more the type who wants more control over the final
    image, and who know how to use the image editors in such a way to get their
    desired result. For those who have tried, you've noticed that 10D images do
    "take" sharpening very well, compared with other cameras.

    For those who don't like to tinker with their images, I'd probably suggest
    the 300D to them. Those who like to tinker with images I think will find
    that the 10D will squeeze out slightly better images in the long run for
    them (using a good lens, of course).

    Greg
     
    DigitalCameraBasics, Sep 20, 2003
    #9
  10. Simon,


    It would perhaps be helpful if you would post some notes to let folks know
    how to install your sharpening action. Reading the page, it is geered a bit
    more towards advanced users and not novices, and many folks on this board
    use Photoshop Elements (1 and 2) and Paint Shop Pro (7 and 8). Could you
    explain for the folks how to use this action for these programs, etc?
     
    DigitalCameraBasics, Sep 20, 2003
    #10
  11. jeff liss

    jeff liss Guest

    Thanks to all who replied. The advice was great and the links provided
    me with newfound knowledge that will make sharpening easier to
    understand. Good shooting, all.
    Jeff
     
    jeff liss, Sep 20, 2003
    #11
  12. jeff liss

    FOR7b Guest

    I have been following a process of sharpening at two points in "work flow".
    I disagree with the article saying radius should increase as the print size
    increases. Even sharpening programs like Nik Sharpner Pro, which does a good
    job, don't do that. It should be the other way around. Then again the article
    does not even take into consideration the file size by adding that a smaller
    file size will require less of a radius adjustment and overall sharpening.

    As for sharpening twice to compensate for a digicams low-pass filter I can't
    offer any comment on that since my digital output is from negative scans. One
    question I have about that is that I always thought in-camera sharpening is
    applied after the image is captured so what benefit are you getting from
    sharpening twice? How is that compensating for something placed in front of the
    sensor?

    No offense but I also wouldn't just go buy what a computer/software oriented
    site suggests, especailly for digital photography. That's kinda like taking
    serious PC Worlds or ZDNets reviews of digicams, many of which are embarassing.




     
    FOR7b, Sep 20, 2003
    #12

  13. I use neither of those two programs so I have no guidelines to offer.
    Besides it's for 10D/D60 CRW's processed with C1 ... it'll be a poor
    sharpening routine to be using with any other files. Am I'm being
    over-asumptive to think that anybody using a 10D & C1 will...

    a) Use Photoshop
    b) Know how to install an action

    ?

    Simon
     
    Simon Stanmore, Sep 20, 2003
    #13
  14. jeff liss

    Kenny Guest


    Absolutely. The 300D is aimed at users who are used to seeing over-sharp
    and over-saturated images coming out of P&S cameras. The 10D is aimed at
    people who see the benefit of post-processing.

    Not all images need the same amount of sharpening, even from the same
    shoot under the same conditions. It is better to keep it under your own
    control rather than leave it to the camera.

    Kenny
     
    Kenny, Sep 20, 2003
    #14
  15. jeff liss

    FOR7b Guest

    Absolutely. The 300D is aimed at users who are used to seeing over-sharp


    How do you get oversharp in a point and shoot, or any film camera for that
    matter?



     
    FOR7b, Sep 20, 2003
    #15
  16. Actually, maybe a little.

    I own a 10D, and though I know how to use actions, I'm perfectly happy using
    Paint Shop Pro. No need for full Photoshop. A neighbor of mine just bought
    his first digital camera... a 10D. So I think we've now reached the point
    in digicams where yep... you can't assume the users of a camera know
    Photoshop or Actions. :)
     
    DigitalCameraBasics, Sep 21, 2003
    #16
  17. jeff liss

    Lionel Guest

    Word has it that on 20 Sep 2003 22:26:11 GMT, in this august forum,
    (FOR7b) said:
    He's talking about /digital/ P&S cameras, which usually heavily sharpen
    & saturate the images when they're taken. The better P%S digitals allow
    you to turn that stuff off, but they'll still do it in 'dummy mode'.
     
    Lionel, Sep 21, 2003
    #17
  18. jeff liss

    FOR7b Guest

    Actually, maybe a little.
    Paint Shop Pro 8 has actions by the way.




     
    FOR7b, Sep 21, 2003
    #18
  19. jeff liss

    FOR7b Guest

    Absolutely. The 300D is aimed at users who are used to seeing over-sharp
    Hmm, got the impression he meant from film cams. Dummy mode?


     
    FOR7b, Sep 21, 2003
    #19
  20. jeff liss

    Lionel Guest

    Word has it that on 21 Sep 2003 06:11:21 GMT, in this august forum,
    (FOR7b) said:
    I would've thought that the fact that this is a newsgroup about
    *digital* photography would've made that point clear. ;) Not to mention
    it being impossible for a film camera to artifically sharpen & saturate
    the image, in-camera.
    That's what I (& some other people) call the fully-automatic modes on
    P&S cameras, (both film & digital). On Canons, it's a green 'auto' or
    green rectangle icon on the mode dial. They're intended for people who
    just want to point the camera at grandma & hit the button, & they
    typically disable all the other controls to prevent the user from
    accidentally changing them.
     
    Lionel, Sep 21, 2003
    #20
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